Yea, I keep telling myself that :) Definitely an example of cause & effect. All started with monitoring the engine room bulkhead for moisture . . . That led to the fuel tank . . . which led to the storage compartment floor. It would be nice to get another 10-15 years of life out of the boat, at least from a structural perspective.

Ted, This is pretty awesome!


Now I know why you suggested doing a moisture check on the 370 I'm considering!!

btw, as you suggested, I obtained a 2001 370 SS brochure. They do indicate that it was built with "Perma Panel" wood products....I guess that's a good thing.

Also, I used a product for cleaning a set of Alcoa aluminum wheels that is a weak solution of phosphoric and sulphuric and hydrofluoric acid.

If I was going to ready your fuel tank, I would do a quick etch with that or a similar solution, rinse well with water, dry it and then prime it with zinc chromate or other aluminum specific primer.

Cheers,


Rick

Hey, Rick:

Thanks for the advice on the fuel tank. I have some Interlux Interprotect (2-part epoxy paint) that is advertised to work well on aluminum. So, that is what I plan on using. I will give it a 'pull' test to see if cured foam breaks off rather than pulling the paint.

The nice thing with perma panel construction is that the moisture will not lead to rot, which gives you better options of drying out any portions of the structure that are wet. I *thought* that the 370 and the 400 had the fiberglass/foam stringer grid system, rather than the wood core construction that the 330, 280 and 260 have.

An oscillating tool works good for cutting out the fiberglass in tight places.

now I don't know about that. I got the info from the 2001 Brochure. AND it sounds like it's all the models too.....
I think you'd need to ask Formula themselves to find out which models have no wood in the stringers. It sure would be a good idea to do it that way.

Maybe they are doing in the newer models..... I didn't find a newer brochure. The one I'm looking at is a 2003 model.....


That epoxy paint will work well. I'm pretty sure Interlux suggests some sort of an aluminum etch prep so the stuff will stick.

The 370 and the 400 are "super sports". The others in the smaller sizes are "sun sports"

T, I pulled my gas tank hatch the other day to put some backing plates on, I will be closing it up soon would you know what caulk to use to,seal,it up with I would like to stay away from 4200-5200 in case I need to pull again.

Thanks

Mark

I don't know what Formula uses, but I have used regular Silicon II to seal it back up. I would think that you could use 4200 as well, since you have to cut the seal to remove the hatch.

In other news . . .

I have ordered a bunch of supplies from US Composites

3 gallons of Vinyl Ester Resin

20 Cubic Foot Kit of 2-part Foam (4 lb density)

This should arrive early next week, just in time to do some glassing of the new structural components.

Update: 12 April 2014

I managed to cut out the storage compartment sub floor using my sawzall and various other tools.

Here is the area with the structure removed and the tabbing areas ground down a bit.

http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4007.jpg

I have a bunch of card board that I am going to use to make templates for the main bulkhead and the storage area structure components.

I picked up a piece of Exterior Plywood at Lowes today . . .

Checked out my cardboard templates and got ready to cut out the new wood pieces for the storage compartment floor and the main bulkhead.

http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4014.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4010.jpg

I laid out the templates on the plywood and made my cuts . . .

http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4016.jpg

I checked the wood pieces for fit. Here is the structure pieces for the storage area floor.

http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4018.jpg

Here is the floor piece for the storage area . .

http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4028.jpg

And the main bulkhead . . .

http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4023.jpg

I also put the first coat of epoxy paint on the fuel tank.

http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4026.jpg

I have Tuesday and Wednesday of this week off from work, so my hopes are to finish grinding the tabbing areas and get to some fiberglassing.

Looks good your making good progress

Tank looks REALLY nice!..............You decided NOT to try to obtain Perma Panel or other equivalent type wood for the plywood structures?

Yea, I probably could have shopped around and ordered a sheet of perma panel . . . but not enough time in my days to do such. I also believe that with a different approach to glassing in the wood components, I can achieve better isolation from moisture. See my picture below . . .

I plan on putting a layer of CSM on the underside of the new stringer and bulkhead pieces and then doing a full glass over the top. The storage compartment floor will also be glassed on both sides. So, it should have good longevity, even though it is not PT panels.

http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...erTabbing1.jpg

I am also going to put a layer of CSM glass between the new floor structure and the two forward bulkheads, so that moisture cannot transfer (easily) between the various sections of the boat. It should be quite sufficient for the prevention of moisture penetration and propagation. (I hope :) )

Well, it probably WILL be. Your meticulous attention to detail will ensure that!!

When I replaced the bulkhead between the engine and the fuel tank and re-glassed the engine compartment in my 1987 Four Winns Lib, I found that Four Winns also didn't do a very good job sealing the wood from water intrusion. It's amazing how a tiny little hole or break in the glass can cause so much headache later!!

Another update . . .

I am starting to do the preparation glassing of the new structural pieces. This is the CSM (Chopped Strand Mat) that is going on the lower edges of the wood and on the faces of the bulkhead and floor pieces.

Here are a few pictures of the work so far . . .

I cut out holes in the flooring piece so that I can pour in the expanding foam into the cambers of the storage compartment floor structure

http://home.comcast.net/%7Etpenfield...s/IMG_4032.jpg

Here are all the little pieces with CSM wetted onto the edges

http://home.comcast.net/%7Etpenfield...s/IMG_4035.jpg

Here are the floor piece and the bulkhead piece with CSM wetted out.

Floor Piece - this will be the under side . . . the several holes need to be cut out before installation. Then the final layer of CSM will go on the other side, which will be facing up.

http://home.comcast.net/%7Etpenfield...s/IMG_4033.jpg

Bulkhead Piece

http://home.comcast.net/%7Etpenfield...s/IMG_4037.jpg

I have been using Vinyl Ester resin, which is similar to what Formula uses on their hulls. The open time of VE is quite long as compared to poly resin. In order to ensure that the resin does 'kick' and due to the slightly colder temperatures that I am working in, I have been using a 2% catalyst ratio, instead of the recommended 1%. The resin still stays open for a couple of hours at about 60 degrees F. that certainly is a good thing if you need more time in doing layup work, but not so much if you are just trying to get through the prep work.

I am hoping for some warmer weather over the next week so that I can get these pieces tabbed into the boat. It was 34 degrees F and snowing yesterday morning . . .

34F is not my favorite temp to work in!!

Yup, fortunately my garage was about 60 F, and I was pulling air via a venting fan from the house to keep the working temperature up.

The next few days are supposed to be in the low-mid 50's. As long as it is sunny, the tarp, being dark green heats up the boat another 10 degrees or so. With that, I might be able to get the pieces installed in the boat.

Had a nice warm day, yesterday . . . about 60 F . So, I got some more fiberglass prep done. Today is going to be colder, but Monday - Tuesday look OK.

Here are a few pictures . . .

Bulkhead and Storage area floor pieces all prepped with glass coating and holes drilled . . .

http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4046.jpg

I found a bit of rot along the crack in the center engine mount stringer. It was fairly isolated to the spacer and base pieces. So, I ground out the soft stuff until I got to good wood. Then I sprayed some 'Chemotherapy' into the area.

http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4050.jpg

If I can get the boat up to about 60 degrees, then I'll try to install the wood pieces.

I also got another coat of paint on the fuel tank.

http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4047.jpg

I did a 'pull' test on the first 2 coats of paint, using some really sticky tape. . . and the paint seems to be well adhered to the tank. I could not get the paint to 'pull' off the tank.

I used Interlux Interprotect 2000 on the tank, which is a 2-part epoxy paint. It is normally used as a barrier coat, but also has good application as a bare metal primer.

Ted,

Did you use some sort of aluminum "etch" prior to painting like "Alumiprep" or equiv? http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo.../alumiprep.php

Hi Rick:

I used both an acid and wet sanding to prep the tank.

I found no Easter eggs in the boat today . . .

I did a test fitting of the bulkhead and then tabbed in the storage compartment floor structure.

Here is the bulkhead . . .
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4052.jpg

I plan on having a 'drain tube' as a thru-hull into the fuel bay. The tube has a few slits in the bottom side that will face the hull.
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4054.jpg

The thru-hull will lead to its own 'mini bilge' to isolate it from water that may be in the main bilge.

I plan on tabbing in the bulkhead tomorrow.

Here are a couple of pictures of the storage compartment floor structure.

I used a little bit of urethane foam to fill the gap that is usually there with the structure being offset from the hull a small amount
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4057.jpg

I compressed the foam before it set up, so that the tabbing would fit well to the hull and wood pieces.

Then I tabbed the wood structure to the hull
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4059.jpg

The storage area is really cramped, so it was a bit difficult to maneuver and work with the resin and glass. . . glad it is done though.

Tomorrow, I'll trim things up and apply the floor. . . . I might be able to foam it on Tuesday . . . but we'll have to see.

Nice job!

Progress Update . . .

I got the storage compartment floor installed. It is resin'ed to the structure and then tabbed in with some "PB" filler along the edges. Next steps would be to fill the cavities with foam and then top it off with a layer of fiberglass, using CSM.
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4065.jpg

Then, it was onto tabbing in the main bulkhead . . .
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4074.jpg

I propped up the cross member as it was sagging a little bit. I used 1708 cloth for the tabbing and then gave it a second layer with 24 oz woven roving.

I used several layers of CSM on the center engine mount stringer where it joins the bulkhead, and then put a few SS screws into it from the other side. It will also get tabbing from the engine room side
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4083.jpg

I'm into my third gallon of VE resin . . . with the engine room side tabbing and the storage compartment floor yet to go. It should be just enough.

Great work.

Thanks. The fiberglass work has been a bit tedious and the access has not been great, but it is getting done.

A few more pictures from the day's work . . . I was working on the engine room side today. Made a couple of pieces for mounting the shower bilge and also a mini bilge to isolate the thru-hull from the main bilge.

Here is the mini bilge . . .

http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4088.jpg

and here are the mounting pieces for the shower bilge. I re-engineered them from the original, which was more like a large pad.

http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4084.jpg

Here are a few pictures from tabbing in the bulkhead on the engine room side.

Port side
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4093.jpg

Starboard Side
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4095.jpg

The mini bilge and shower bilge pieces are just tacked in. I plan on glassing them once the bulkhead tabbing has cured, etc.

I am looking ahead to the next steps in this project and thinking about the process of foaming the tank and the storage compartment floor, once the tank is installed. I have a 20 cubic foot kit of 4 lb density foam. Thinking about the best ways to mix an dispense the foam.

Generally, you get a 20-30 second mixing time until you have to pour/ dispense the foam before it starts to expand. I want to come up with a DIY technique that will insure a good fill with no voids around the tank and under the storage compartment floor.

Any ideas/experiences to share?

TIA

I have received some more materials that I will need to finish up the fiberglass work and install the fuel tank. . . some biaxial tape and neoprene sheets.

http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4118.jpg

I plan on bonding the cockpit sole to the stringer grid, eventhough the folks at Formula said it was not necessary, I figured that it would 'tighten' up the boat a bit. Since the boat is 'opened' up - this will be my chance.

The neoprene is to provide some mounting ads for the fuel tank to rest on prior to the foaming of the tank. Instead of a single long strip, running along the ribs of the hull that were used originally, I plan to use several 'pads' of neoprene material to provide a route for material (and air) to move between the 'rib chambers' during the foaming process. My hopes are that this method will reduce the possibilities for an air pocket to form within the foam. No real way to check it, pretty much all theory.

Anyway, plans for the weekend are to bond the cockpit sole and install the tank. Probably won't foam it in until the following weekend. . . still thinking about the best DIY method for the foaming.

When I had some work done on a house, we used an insulating foam between the studs. Since this was not all new construction, we had to spray/pump in some of the areas. I would think that the hard to reach areas could be pumped/sprayed in to insure that all the gaps are filled before putting the top on and pouring the rest in? I know the stuff we used wasn't all that cheap, but we only used it where we couldn't get full access.

Fuel Tank Installation . . .

I did some last bit of fiberglass work prior to installing the fuel tank. . . . bonded the stringer grid to the cockpit sole. Here are a few pics of the bonding with biaxial tape.
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4128.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4131.jpg

Here are the neoprene pads glued to the ribs of the hull . . .
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4134.jpg

I used the tarp frame to act as a hoist for the tank in order to lower it into the fuel tank bay . . .
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4151.jpg

Here is a pic of the tank being lowered into the fuel bay . . .
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4153.jpg

The tank all strapped in . . .
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4159.jpg

I will probably foam the tank in next weekend . . . may be too cold tomorrow for foaming.

I have been reading up a little bit about the 2-part urethane foam that I will be using to secure the tank into the fuel bay ( 4 lb/cu ft density foam). Looks like I will need/want to raise the temperature of the foam liquid parts and the fuel tank bay in order to get decent expansion of the foam and an adequate fill.

I have a 20 cubic foot 'kit' - basically (2) 5 gallon containers of parts A and B . . . The 20 cubic feet is based on an 80 degree F working temperature. I'll be working in about 60-65 degrees. According to the supplier, the expansion rate of the foam is about half of the spec when used at 50 degrees F. I think that if I pre-heat the liquid and the fuel tank bay . . . Maybe get it more into the 70-75 degree range and the liquid in the 80-85 degree range . . I should be OK.

Anyone have experience or advice for using the 2-part foam in colder temps?

I got the fuel tank foamed in today, so that is a good milestone. The temperatures were decent and I pre-heated the foam liquid parts, so the foaming action was OK. I don't think I got the full 20 cubic feet . . . more like 16 cubic feet, but it was enough.

Here is a video of the day foaming the storage compartment floor and the fuel tank. It is speeded up by 3X so as not to take as long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rbvNS7f_Xk Tomorrow, I'll trim the foam and glass over the storage compartment floor.

Another update . . .

I got the foam trimmed today and things prepped for the final bit of fiberglassing.

Storage compartment floor
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4329.jpg

Fuel Tank Bay
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4334.jpg

I did the fiberglassing late in the day, but there is still a bit more to go.

Nice job I watched the vid great job your tank is not going anywhere

Yea, I hope it all stays put. Adhesion is the number 1 thing with foamed in tanks. Of course there is no way to tell, except time will tell.

An unusual thing that I noticed is that there were some expansion/contraction noises coming from the tank the day after I foamed it in. Only noticed it once or twice. Maybe just due to temperature changes, etc.

The tank did get fairly warm when I was foaming it, I'd say 90 degrees F range.

I watched the videos, and I can't believe how fast he stirs!

;-)

That was outstanding!

Another quick update . . .

I coated the trimmed foam with polyurethane as a means of preventing water from condensation from working its way into the foam.

http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4337.jpg

I also have coated the bulkhead with polyurethane . . . I find it a bit easier to use for engine room coating rather than gelcoat.

http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4338.jpg

Today, I hope to get the waste tank installed and the deck hatch laid back down. Things are starting to go together !!!

It's a boat again !!! :D

Pretty good weekend on the final stages of the bulkhead replacement project . . .

I glassed the mid-cabin storage compartment floor (deck) . . .
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4350.jpg

Then it was a matter of installing the waste tank and connecting the hoses and electrical. . .

Here is the waste tank carrier installed.
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4346.jpg

Here is all the 'stuff' hooked up . . .
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4349.jpg

The deck hatch was laid back down and the helm seat assembly put into place.
http://home.comcast.net/~tpenfield/F...s/IMG_4354.jpg

The helm seat is still loose, but time was running out in the day. So, that will be done next time. I have a few days off this coming week, so I should be able to finish it up and move onto the regular pre-season prep work.

Well, I am getting near the end of this project and thought to take some time to reflect . . .

1) It all started out with a higher than normal moisture level reading in the main bulkhead, which separates the fuel bay and the engine room. This bulkhead is also a major junction point for the major stringers in the boat.

2) That lead to some diagnostic and remediation efforts to understand the propagation of moisture to joining areas.

3) There was some moisture found in the lower portions of the foam in the fuel bay by drilling some test holes and core samples.

4) Based on the diagnostics done, a decision was made (by me) to remove & replace the center section of the main bulkhead.

5) Upon removal of the bulkhead, an additional issue was noticed, in that the fuel tank was no longer adhering to the foam. This was the most probable cause for the collection of moisture in the fuel bay and the bulkhead.

(I believe it was Audiofn who mentioned that the problems usually go further than you think . . . ) :)

6) Upon removal of the fuel tank and related foam, moisture was also noted in the forward bulkhead. It was not too bad, but it warranted looking further forward into the mid cabin storage area.

7) The storage area floor was in a progressed stage of moisture and partial rotting, so that extended the scope of the repairs to the mid-section of the boat.

8) Along the way, I looked at the structure of the boat in terms of stiffening the structure. Bonding the cockpit sole to the stringer grid would be a way of adding some rigidity to the boat. I contacted Formula Tech Support about this idea. They indicated that although it would add some strength it was not really necessary and may result in some crazing of the gelcoat in some areas of the cockpit sole. I decided to go ahead and bond the cockpit sole to the stringer grid, figuring that this would be my only chance.

9) Additionally, I had asked Formula about the built-in flotation that is used in the structure. I was interested to know if the boat had enough flotation to remain afloat in an 'unplanned event'. I also did my own estimations and calculations to determine if the boat could stay afloat. It turned out that I should probably add some flotation to insure that the boat would remain on the surface, if it ever became flooded/mostly submerged. So, I added approximately 24 cubic feet of flotation to the boat.

10) Then it was a matter of putting it all back together . . .

So, what started out as a wet bulkhead, expanded in scope based on both what I found as the underlying cause of the moisture as well as some improvements made along the way.

Total time for the work was about 6 months from the first cut into the bulkhead . . . my hopes are that this boat will be good for a very long time, probably the rest of its useful life.