As I mentioned before, I would have NEVER even considered a sale if I thought there were ANY issues. That is not me. The survey was, in my opinion, very complete. Remember, I Owned this boat for the better part of 9 years. I had been in and out of every inch and had never seen any signs of damage. Please Don't speculate that there was some kind of cover up or known willingness to deceive anybody here.

Me, slowing Down? Really Chris! Lol

Dave

Sorry to hear of your troubles Chris. I guess this is why you couldn't make it to the FOONJ Rendezvous last year. We were wondering if something happened. You went from being 100% and excited about coming and then we didn't hear from you at all for awhile. Hopefully you'll have the 353 back by 4th of July for the 7th Annual Formula Owners of NJ Rendezvous.

I suppose if you were really keen or scared you could cut some exploration holes in the liner and have a look.
Or drill a smaller hole and use a small inspection camera.

I am installing Arnesons now so I had to trim some liner away from the inside of my 2000 - 382 for the inner brackets.
Happy to report I found lots of plexas that took hours to remove.

I wish you the best for the rebuild Chris.

Heard back from Formula yet ?


Good luck with the project, Iam sure the first time you take it out it will put a smile on your face and hopefully using the boat will make you forget the bs you went through.

For those of you that have never met AXA (Dave), you have never met anyone more sincere, knowledgeable, caring, passionate and have the integrity of a Saint....(Maybe too much deep poop flowing now....lmao)...I am serious, Dave was nothing but hands on after the sale of this boat. He flew down to MD to be there for our first launching of the boat and covered every little detail with us. I know for fact that Dave has had sleepless nights for what happened to "Chillin". I am blessed to have such a great friend involved in this with me....(now just need to get him to pay for it....lol :evilb:) Just kidding BB.

Dave, you're not slowing down...you now are able to see more things in detail on the coastline as you are running your boat...:cool-smiley-011:


Chris

Hey Chris,
Just read the thread. Sorry to hear what your going through. Sounds like Dave is a awesome guy, I feel bad for both of you. Hope you get everything resolved and have years of fun on the boat. Looking forward to seeing you on the Hudson again. Oh, Give Dave a fast ride when you get it back, it sounds like he needs one.
Jim

Slowing down??? We all know that a rip at the big Two Seven will really get your rocks off.

As a new Formula Owner (< 4 years), I appreciate reading things like this more for the fact that it shows that most Formula Enthusiasts take pride in their boats and even though it has been a rough year and situation for you, it hasnt stopped you from pushing on to get things corrected the right way. Not all boat owners would take the steps that you did to fix this and that's what separates the owners from the enthuisasts in my book. I'm sorry to hear what happened and look forward to seeing your new boat! You'll have to do a victory run down to Cambridge this year, you will be met with cold beers.

until you've felt the rush of simultaneously mixing a drink, doing some vacuuming, and surfing the 'net at top speed- don't knock it!

Exactly! I think he meant the BIG 37 going 27mph, although with a little prop tweaking, I think she might top out at a blistering 40! Lol

Dave

considering the source I knew exactly what he meant.

Well looks like I am dealing with the exact same issue. I decided after looking at this thread to do some more looking around on my boat. Sure enough after being told what to check I can say I clearly am dealing with the exact same issue. One side seems OK the other is a total delimitation of the liner from the bottom of the hull. I can now say knowing what to look for it is easy to spot. Just go under the hull on the trailer or stands or what ever and push up on the bottom of the hull under the engine bay. You can also nock around on the bottom and look for a hallow spot. Mine was easy to tell doing both tests. The port side is way worse then the starboard side. :-(

Once I gave the bilge a good bath this is what I found. If you look close behind the engine mount and in front of the engine mount there are some fairly substantial cracks. The second picture shows the starboard side. That side seems to be MUCH better but there are still a large number of hair line cracks. [ATTACH=CONFIG]552305[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]552306[/ATTACH]

sorry to get to the party late :D I suspect this will be a very large and informative thread its also surprising the amount of calls and PM's i have received concerning liner issues in other Fastechs. I will be organizing some things shortly and adding as we go and will keep close to the thread if anyone has any questions. Over the years i have been aware of Formulas liner issues and have seen many levels of the problem from fully blown out liners to minor isolated issues. Early on they had problems with the Plexus joints that as far as i can tell were caused by to thick a bond line or poor placement. Chris's boat was, what i thought, very unique in that all the bonds were perfect throughout the boat but had some sort of issue within the structure of the bilge liner. Now on first inspection all joints were found to be solid and proper but there was definitely some shifting going on as there was significant stressing visible on the boats running surface and upon closer inspection there were several previous attempts to repair damage to the liner telling me something between or around those two surfaces was to blame. Thats when i got out the saw :D What i found was the liner was not set deep enough during assembly to make contact with the inside of the hulls running surface thereby letting the entire hull under the engine liner basically "float", this surface is not cored and is probably only a few layers thick and requires a secondary support (core, liner, etc). The liner was fully half to three quarter of an inch away from its intended (engineered) location, flush to the running surface. At some point an attempt (a very poor one) was made to fill the void with Plexus by drilling multiple two inch holes and injecting filler in to take up the gap. Not only did this not correct it but it caused several hard spots because of the inconsistent coverage, heck many of the beads of plexus just laid on the bottom surface never even touching the liner (wtf?) I originally thought maybe this was a unique isolated "fix" but am now hearing of other owners having similar issues in boats having the tell tale plugs in the liner. Chatted with Jon (AudioFN) and his boat is almost identical in every way right down to stress location. I will say this though, apart from the liner placement issue this Formula is one incredibly well built and well thought out boat. Quality is very high and rigging and design are incredibly good for a production style boat (it rivals many customs I've seen). The problems with the liners were confined to early boats and as soon as they realized the problem i believe it was corrected in production. I actually believe the problem stemmed from possibly a discontinuity between engineering and production implementation, its sometimes difficult to get the work force to understand the importance of certain details. I honestly think if the cavity had been foam filled the problem would not exist. They really are fantastic boats and i would not hesitate to own one. Chris' boat in particular is one of the nicest boats i have had in my shop (awesome job Mr. Powell :cool:). I have to organize some stuff but i will be adding more in the next few days. Oh . . . and if you have one of these . . . . it can be fixed for good . . . its only fiberglass :)

Dave I think that the best thing that can come out of this thread is for people to not only be informed that this problem MAY exist in their boats or boats that they are buying, as well as what is the best way to go about fixing it if they do run into the problem and what works for a repair. I will tell you right now if I had not had the time to talk to you about it I would be panicking right now not knowing the exact structure of the boat. Since you cut it open I don't have to do that myself (hopefully). Dave is going about this the correct way IMO but is there another way that will be strong and function as well with out as much "cutting" and time. I have an appointment with a structural guy on Wednesday to take a look as well as I have had great conversations with Dave about the issue. He and I are going to stay in close contact as we both rip into these things and put our collective heads together. If I can find ways to get foam into the void that is between the liner and the hull that is the method that I will be trying. I guess worst case is that if fails I will be doing what Dave is now? I don't think it will fail however as long as I can get a 100% fill. IMO it will be WAY stronger then it ever was adding very little weight. The Plexus repair that was done at the factory on what seems like all these boats did last a full almost 15 years on these two boats before it failed. IMO the problem is the plexus and the very very short work time and the tight tolerances that need to be adhered to while using it. You only have like 7 min of work time. That is 7 min to lay out your beads, drop in the liner and get a gap of 1-3MM. Just seems like a LOT to ask of a production team. The good news as Dave pointed out it is just fiberglass and it CAN BE FIXED. Now lets see how these two boats get fixed and see how they last after. :-)

Jon, (Audiofn), Very sorry to hear that you also are having similar issues with your boat. I do not feel that coming up with any type of mediocre repair by filling in the gaps is the best bet. Now I am no expert but without being able to physically see I would be very hesitant. Knowing what Dave has gone thru on my boat...(the cutting etc etc.) is an ugly thought but there is no doubt that our boat will NEVER have further issues with these problems....JUST MY $0.02. I am very pleased that we as a group are all able to benefit from this thread. Hate being the Ginny pig but everything happens for a reason. The more I keep hearing of these similar issues in other boats the more Formula better get involved as this is clearly not just ONE isolated issue. Thanks Jon for being involved. Hopefully we both are repaired soon and enjoying our great boats this summer without concerns.

Chris

If it was a car, the manufacturer would be forced to do a recall. Would there be a location to cut an inspection hole to see under the liner and find out if your boat may be effected? After inspection, fit a small bilge hatch for anyone to see that the boat is fine.

With so many similar boats out on the water, I'm sure lots of owners and prospective buyers would be wondering...

RR

IMO RAK RUA, This is not really up to Formula to make these repairs. The boats are at this point in time OLD. You would never see a car manufacturer do a recall on a car that is 15 years old, it would never happen. It sucks that we have to go through this, and we never should have to go through this, and one could argue that Formula knew about the problems they have due to the repairs that these boats all have (if you have the plastic plugs in the floor Formula was looking to see if you had the problem and so far every 353 engine bay bottom that I have seen has the holes). The reality is that I am not looking for Formula to take are of this I am looking to let others know about the potential for this issue and make sure they check to see if their boat has the same problems and if it does get it fixed before they have a failure.

Chris: No doubt the way that Dave it going after this is the BEST way to make sure you are 100%. That does not mean it is the only solid fix. IMO IF I can get assurance of filling the ENTIRE void with expanding foam this will be JUST as strong as your repair. The concern and what I have to make sure is that I have a 100% fill, but that is no different then what Dave is doing? We need there to be no void! The expanding foam that I will be using is NOT what you put around windows or comes out of a spray can. This is going to be either 8 or 16 pound foam. 16 pound foam can be hit with a hammer and not dent it. The holding power is up over 500PSI so stronger then polyester at around 250psi and just a little weaker then Vynnle Ester at 700PSI. The compression is the concern and getting the total fill. That is why I need to get some more research done. It is probably not much cheaper then your repair as the cost of the material is going to be around 500 bucks or more but certainly could be a lot faster?

Understand fully, would be hard to blame Formula for a build issue that long ago but it would be nice if owners were guided through a simple step by step way to check their boat and be confident they could show it to other people.

I feel a bit sorry for you guys with the problem, I guess it's just something you would never have imagined, regardless of the boats age.

You have the right attitude towards the situation, get it fixed and move on.

RR

Would it be completely crazy to fill the gap under that with something like sea-cast or nida-core stringer fill? Yeah it may add some weight but overall i doubt the boat would even notice it and having it pourable would allow it to fill all the nook and crannys under the liner to get a good fill i think....

Wally thank you for the idea! See this is what it is all about tossing ideas around! I was trying to think of the Sea Cast product and the name was not coming to me to save my life! Now I have some reading to do. What I really want to find is something that has more work time then pour foam. The short work time i what scares me. I will report back with my research this evening.

Good thread guys, well written and received, Dave, this is for you as well, thanks guys very good education here which is why I love these forums, even thou sometimes they get turned into a bashing mess

You mean like this.....:lolhit::poopoo::hijack::bsflag::Whatever ::hitfan::nhl_fight::faint2:....now that's funny S$IT...... hahaha:evilb:


Chris

Lol

Hey Chris, So sorry to hear about this problem. I know it would be unlikely that formula would do a recall especially because of age but I wonder how the legal system would handle a situation if the boat had come apart at speed and someone had been hurt because of the bad workmanship. Very thankful that didn't happen and you caught it. Im curious whether they would be held accountable. The way our legal system works I would say this is much worse than being burned by hot coffee at McDonalds.

Also If I were Formula I would be very concerned about this since it happened again and was discovered because of this thread. It could be great positive PR twist to notify the public and agree to at least pay a portion of the fix. Somebody could get hurt badly because of this.

been following this thread and I am not trying to start any issues or any bashing of any kind and I understand the boat in question is older, but what does that have to do with the workmanship issue the boat has?if in fact the issue is what we are told it is.
if badmonkey bought the boat when it was 2-3 years old and discovered the issues, would formula step up and do the right thing? probably,i would think.
so what difference does it make that the boat is now 15 years old?the issue has always been there since day one,we are not talking about a rotten transom or wet stringers that could happen over time,we are talking about a issue with a boat that has to do with the way it was put together when it was been build.
again sorry if you guys think I am bashing Formula ,I am not ,just my thoughts on the situation,and I think Formula builds a great boat and I would not hesitate to buy one, and I know nobody asked for my thoughts,lol

Boatnt,

No bashing at all IMO....I couldn't agree with you more considering we are the ones having to spend all the money to repair a boat that all would think nothing like this would happen. Yes, Formula missed the boat (no pun intended) on the quality control. Should they get involved and do something...as far as I am concerned YES....will they????TBD. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. This is what sharing this thread was all about... public awareness, educational, informational, etc.etc....

Chris

I am not an expert on structural fiberglass, but it is a little extreme to think that this could cause hurt to anyone. I have seen boats delaminate in several races and poker runs (never a Formula btw) and no one was hurt. I would think knowing the place where this is happening, there is plenty of structural support and in my opinion, would not cause a catostrophic failure. Again, please don't make this into something it is not.

Respectfully,
Dave

Hey Dave, Was not trying to do that. Sorry if it came across that way. I think Formula makes one of the best boats on the market. I have never had an experience with this before. My friends have owned several and they are beautiful and built well. Nobody is perfect and it just sounds like Formula missed something. I would not want my family running across 3 to 4 footers at 85 mph knowing this situation exists. It would scare me. If You are the knowledgeable one here I would agree with your take on the situation. Once again I think formula could spin this in a positive way but thats me.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]552441[/ATTACH]

Smaller Version

You may now have the ONLY .....

What are you gonna call the "make over" ? How about Glass Action

How about a SH$T LOAD of money we never wanted to spend....No name sharing till its done....

LOL I kinda like "make over" LOL

Ok so I tore into mine a little more this evening with my engineer friend. He and I came to the conclusion that while pour foam would have worked if the plugs had been sealed enough that it was still clean between the hull and the liner that is not the case. It is dirty. I drilled a 2" hole in the liner to confirm this. SO to fix this properly it is going to require cutting. I also after pulling the caps in the bottom of the liner poked a wire around and there were a couple places that I could not only push the snake past the plexus but I was able to push it to the other side of the boat. I can't imagine this is normal?

So some interesting thoughts. Is this problem worse in cold climates? I am not sure were Bad Monkeys boat came from but mine has been in the North East all its life. If water is to get into the space between the hull and the liner the expansion could be extreme when it freezes. This could easily blow the two parts apart. What is concerning me is were I did cut into the liner I purposely did so half on and half off were I was almost certain that there was plexus. There was almost ZERO evidence of a good bond on the plexus. If it broke apart it should have ripped the glass fibers with it. This is sounding a lot like the guys that have also dealt with the rub rail issues?

Also a couple people talking about a catastrophic failure. My friend said he did not think that was very likely.

That is very comforting to hear. Just a matter of fixing her now. Im pulling for you guys and hope its a reasonable expense. would be nice.

Audiofn,

Our boat was purchased from Endicott, NY. Boat lived its life in 1000 Islands. Cold weather play a factor????? This really $ucks you're having to deal with this. I really am sorry brother. Sounds like you also have a stable thought process and will correct as needed.

Chris

At the end of the day I have to A) be able to sell the boat with a clear mind that there is nothing wrong with it now that I have found the problem. I also just purchased the boat and have no idea if the person I purchased it from knew what was wrong with it or not. I guess it does not matter it just needs to be fixed now. B) Make sure the boat is enjoyable for me while I own it. I know that if that issue is not fixed that I will not be able to enjoy the boat and I will constantly be worried that something may fail OR even worse not use the boat the way it should be able to be used.

Chris I guess we are both going to have to deal with it together but honestly this may be one of those deals were every one of these things needs this repair or has had it. Our boats will have had the repair done. This IMO is going to be a selling point for me I am going to get rid of those stupid caps that is for sure so that I do not have to worry about any water getting between the hull halves and it will also look much nicer! As a plus the engineer and I discussed the fact that the boats should be faster with the stronger bottom. If the bottom is moving and IMO it did from day 1 then that is going to slow the boat. A strong flat true bottom is going to be faster! We worked our way up the bottom of the boat and it seems like the issue is isolated to the area behind the last step (closest to the back of the boat) and about 1 foot from the notch in the transom. This is certainly the area of the boat that is going to get the most impact while running so it is not a huge surprise. I guess in some ways I am benefiting from the intel I am getting from Dave and hopefully we can save some one else from having to figure this out on their own. We will have two documented boats with two different ways to fix it. I am going to set up an appointment with my brothers glass guy that he uses for his race sailboats as soon as possible as while I feel comfortable that I can do the repair I just don't have the time. This guy is amazing with repairs so i am hoping he likes the idea that my buddy and I came up with last night. The concern is making the cuts in the correct areas so that you don't create another week spot in the boat/liner. So no cutting anything near the corners yada yada yada.... Honestly it is what it is now it WILL get fixed. I guess you can blow up a motor and that will cost you a bunch or have to fix the glass and that will cost you a bunch. No one would bat an eye at the motor repair right? The concern with this is that unlike the motor it seems to be this unknown! I think that if people have a place to go look and see that this repair can be made and have some direction to go by it will make them feel better about it. I hope so anyhow. What is the point in being upset? Just got to get in there and fix it...$$$$$$