Expensive weekend! Need KAAMA help!
 

Hey... Perfectmix! get back to me Josh. I finally got the monster out on the water and the bugs mostly worked out. Started to get the rpms up on the new motors after break-in and just in time for the labor day holiday....BAM a whole new problem on the F402. On friday afternoon cranked the beast up and off goes the blade on one of the props. Boy ain't that an interesting vibration on a KAAMA drive. I have the kiekaffer three blade cleavers on this boat. They are 17 x 24 with 4" hubs. Out comes the boat 20 minutes after putting it in! Here's the best part. I borrow a right hand prop from my buddy Ron's F302 KAAMA. You all know what comes next, don't you? On the way up the chain to the sand bar on saturday morning, I open this thing up again. Bam....Ron's prop is now a two blade in need of some serious balancing. Heres the wierd thing. Both props broke at the same place near the hub. Both breaks appear as though the metal is fatigued at the thick point at the rear of the cleaver (trailing edge) and at the inside of the blade almost at the hub. Obviously these three blades won't hold up to the new torque and horsepower but this is ridiculous! Anybody have any history with these props breaking like that? These were the early speedmaster #3 short hub cleavers from what I can gather. Perfectmix, I would like to know how your conversion to 25 spline props went and what pitch and diameter you are running on your F357 KAAMA. The search for props is now on and any help from out there would be greatly appreciated. I have a local guy with small shaft Speedmaster #4 props that might be willing to part with them. They are 6" hubs and they are labbed to 16" diameter and 27 pitch. I'm not sure if the smaller diameter is going to make up for the increase in pitch though. I'm having trouble getting rpm out of the three blade 24 pitch props. I guess that's a mute subject now though! My biggest concern at this point is that I broke blades off two props on my port drive in less than one hour of running time. Based on what these two broken props look like and the fact that everyone that has seen them agrees that the metal looks poorly cast at the break, I'm praying I don't have a drive problem.....aka-a vibration that sets up a harmonic in the prop a certain rpm. Even with the three blade props on there the drives seem to be very smooth. Until the prop lets loose of course. Any ideas out there????? :eek:

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

How did you come out of the hole? Hammer down or power on slow?

Jon

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

alj
Man does that suck!! You just brought back some bad memories. The word "interesting" is an understatment to describe that nasty vibration.
If I remember correctly you were installing new 540's in your 402. I was wondering what ratio your trannies and drives are. I am suprised that you are having trouble spinning 17"x24p three three blades. My 357 has spiced up 420's I spin a labbed 16.5"x26p 4 blade 5300. My trannies are 1.54-1 and the kammas are 1-1. I have set of 17"x28p small shaft 6" hub 4 blades that you are welcome to try if you would like. I can't spin them with my wimpy 420's. As far as the adapter from small to large shaft. I have been using one for a year and it is working great. It adapts from the older 19 spline small shaft to the 26 spline large shaft I think they are #6 ssm props on my boat.
I bought them from Earl Lanier @ Lanier Marine in Florida. He also has a large selection of ssm and Kiekaffer props in stock. He was easy to work with.

Sounds like plain bad luck to break two props in one weekend on the same drive. I would think you would notice a serious vibration before the prop snapped if there was something wrong with your drive. Probably would notice some oil leaking past prop shaft seal if you had a shaft bent.
Before you purchase new wheels have them flux checked for hair cracks.
Give me a call if I can help 989-350-8444

Josh

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Good morning guys! Well, I bring it on plane by applying power up to about 2800 to 3000 RPM initially. This spins up the props (almost blows them out) but they grab in only about 10 to 14 seconds and the boat planes off. Time to plane seems much faster than my buddy's F302 KAAMA. When I bought the boat the previous owner had changed the drives to spin outwards. I had a hell of a time getting the boat up on plane with these same props but the top RPM was much higher. I changed it back to the stock (turning in rotation) and it comes up on plane very nicely. When underway it really seems that the boat is straining to reach 4000 to 4400 RPM. But then....10400 lbs of boat, 600 lbs of human beings, 1200 lbs of fuel......this thing is a beast. Add 40 % more horsepower and Houston; we have a problem. These broken props have a spot at the break that looks almost like a void in the casting. In the thin areas of the blade and in the leading edge of the thicker rear portion of the blade, the blade broke off and left a very jagged edge. It looks like what you would expect a piece of broken stainless to look like if ripped apart. The very leading edge of the blade (the thinnest part) is even twisted a little like the blade hung on there the longest. But there is this spot that looks like a half moon that doesn't even look like it was connected. It almost looks like when you break a crystal or glass or cast aluminum or something like that. Now that this metal is exposed to the air, the area that is like a void is actually oxidizing or rusting as well. The other, more jagged areas, are staying the same color as normal stainless. Its like the crappier metals in the alloy separated out and migrated or concentrated in the thickest areas of the blade where you need it to be stronger. I'll try to get a few pics to post.
Josh, what props were you running when your prop let loose? If I remember you had the Compu-tech KAAMA props on. Those are 6"hub props aren't they? My concerns now are about what is going to work here. Is going to a 27 pitch prop or even larger going to cause even more rpm problems and can I fix it with a smaller diameter? I.E. do I jump up to the 27 pitch but reduce the diameter to like 16" get my rpm's up? What a pain in the keister! Hey josh, did you like the adapters? Do they seem beefy enough? How much were they? Large shaft props do seem more plentiful but not much cheaper in price necessarily. At least you see them for sale consistently. I'll check the drive and trans ratios and get back to you guys. Has anyone ever heard of the kiekaffer/ mercury props having casting issues or for that matter, breaking blades off? I was surprised to see that a number of guys had problems but they all seemed to be on KAAMA boats. Anyone hear of prop problems on speedmsters? I really don't feel this is a drive problem. Everything is very smooth until it breaks. Interesting coincidence though. All the guys that have broken blades off have almost the same set of circumstances. 4000 rpm or higher, running about 50 mph or so, drives and props under higher torque loads (accelerating). Obviously these are circumstances that would lead to a failure but nobody seems to have problems while running wide open speed wise or having the hull or drive leave the water and then re-enter. Do the big horsepower boats and the race boats have these issues? The constant entering, leaving, and rentering the water that a surfacing prop must endure has to be tough on them. Anyway, good to hear from you guys. Thanks........Al

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

I'm no expert, but aren't surface piercing props under a lot of stress?
I thought I remembered reading that the props should be inspected regularly for stress cracks. Possibly even X-rayed for internal stress fractures.

Just my .02

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

alj:
I broke my prop on a re-entry. Just barely came out of the water for a split second and bang. I had the original kaama 4 blades 16.5"x26p 6" hubs. I broke the port side. I purchased the ssm 17"x28p thinking I may be able to get by with these but to my dismay and $2500.00 later, they didn't work. I stumbled upon a set of 17" x 26p ssm #6 props bought the adapters ($300.00 per side) and I had an alright set up. I could only spin these 4900 so I sent them to Houston Prop and told Darrin what the deal was. He labbed them to 16.5" and did what ever else it is that he does and now I spin 5200 consistent. 67mph on calm water. Can't wait to get into some chop and gps this thing. It is a big hog to move with little 420's. It seems that every .5" diameter = 200-300 rpms. I would think that the 28's would be too much if the 24's spin hard. Must be some grippin 3 blades. You are welcome to try them if you want. The adapter sets are very nice looking. Beefy? yes! Easy?yes. The large shaft props are more available and you can actually find them used in good shape. I have talked to a number of guys with ssm drives that have had this problem. They all say; when its time its time. no real explanation for it. Just fatigued metal. Good Luck:

Josh

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

alj -

Sure sorry to hear about your troubles with the props. I know it doesn't help much but I can feel your pain.


Brent

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

:eek:
Hi guys,
Josh - thanks for the info. I'll try to call you tomorrow. I've got a few questions. I am going to attach a couple pics here. One is of the rig on it's way on friday to stress test inferior propellers. Next is our beloved logo's on the 402. And then the scientific results of the testing done on friday and saturday. Note the half moon shaped area in the thick part of the blades. And Brent, My pain I think is just beginning. Seems as though I'll be bending over real soon when I figure out what will be the new wheels to stress test on this pig. Got any K-Y? I hear the warming K-Y feels real nice! Here are the pics guys.........

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Here are the prop pics.....

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

When I read your post, that exactly what I thought. I couldn't believe that both props had a casting problem in about the same place, but after looking at the pictures, that's what it looks like. Did you have the original Kamma props when you bought it?

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Looking at the pics I'd say that sucker was cracked for quite a while before complete failure.
The darker area is, I believe, discoloration from water intrusion.
A small surface crack develops, water seeps in. As the crack grows more water gets in. Since the point of entry is on the high pressure side the water was forced in as the prop spun.
The blade was undoubtedly flexing too.

Just my opinion and .02

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

alj
Looks real familiar. My Kamma prop looked the same way. Discolored metals throughout the break. On the plus side the boat looks great!
You have plenty of good weather left to get that thing dialed in. Call Earl @ Lanier Marine he will have you running by this weekend. 954-922-6110.
Josh

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Morning guys,
Thanks for signing onto the thread! Cuda, I think Formula changed to the three blade 17 x 24 Mercury props on the larger boats or at least on the lower H.P. engine packages. I believe my boat originally had these props with the Hardin 375 hp engines. Not sure, but a F402 KAAMA I looked at in Vegas had these props on a 330HP engine package (talk about a pup) and that F402 KAAMA that Andrew owns in Washington State also has these props. The Washington State boat is the blue one named Wavewalker or something. Ron's F302 KAAMA also had them although he also had a set of four blade long hubs. Not sure if his four blades are compu-techs though.
So now the big question....what pitch and diameter to run! Definitely want to go with four blades. Compu-techs (with the same hub outside diameter as the case for hydrodynamics) are so few and far between that i'll stick to looking at SSM props. Josh, I looked at the ratios. The tranny has the 1.54 ratio. I'm confused on the drives. They show the serial number and then for ratio it shows " +8 ". Not sure what that is. Does anybody know what it means? I remember a post by andrew in Washington State and he had the same trannie ratio and listed his drive at 1:1: something or other. I'll look it up. I've got a chance to test a pair of SSM small shaft 16 x 27 four blade - 6" hub. I believe they started as 17 x 27 but have been labbed by merc a few times to the smaller diameter. The guy can't use them because he can't get the boat on plane. That concerns me a little since I don't know the rake on these props, but then, I can at least try them before buying. He has an 80's vintage Cougar V-hull around a 35 footer. He is running 850 H.P. big blocks that were originally on SSM3 drives and they couldn't get it dialed in. He got aggravated by prop availability and switched to #5's. Still won't plane off. Talk about lighting thousand dollar bills on fire! Still it scares me that he couldn't plane up on 27 pitch props with that H.P. Anyone know what a "Delron Rake" is? Well my understanding is they can take out diameter when they lab props to help increase top RPM but the pitch you live with. What else do I need to know?
Hey Iggy, don't you have a F206? Have I ever seen a photo of it here. I have a 1987 F206 that I bought new. It still remains my favorite. 18 years and going. Only thing I did was come up with an excuse to my now ex-wife that the 350 mag was blown and it needed a new engine. In goes the ZZ4 crate motor that I marinized. Ron swears that that boat only rides on the alpha drives cavitation plate when I'm behind the wheel. I'll post a photo if I can find one.
Josh, what did Houston Prop charge you for their lab services? I've been told that Mercury charges $1000 per prop per visit. That info came from a marina though so I'm not sure of the bull**** factor there.

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

alj
Houston prop 500.00 per wheel labbed and polished. Best money I ever spent. I also am real interested in the 16" x 27p props you are going to try. That sounds like a decent set up. I liked the larger diameter ssm though, it gave me some stern lift. Boat felt lighter, not so azz heavy. My set up is 1.54 ratio on trannies and 1-1 on drives. Probably the same thing you have. Keep us posted!

Josh

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

You can see pics of my F-206 here.... http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=50864

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

alj -

I just read your reply. lol k-y I'm glad that you are able to keep a great sense of humor through the troubles.


Brent

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

OK here's the latest on the prop saga..... Oh BTW nice 206 Iggy from Kissimmee, I'll find a pic of my 206. Looks like that's the one going on the water this weekend. OK, dropped the 402 in an hour and a half ago with these 16 x 27 four blades. They are merc 6" hub. Barely made it on plane and that was with full plates and drives buried. Once up it didn't want to make any RPM. Pushed to the wall and it creeped up to maybe 3800 or 3900 rpm and the old nordskog speedo only showed 40 mph. Didn't want to push it here so I backed out of it. Tried a takeoff again and it just didn't want to go. Too much throttle and the props just spin out. Hold it at 3000rpm and go down below for a nap while it tries to come on plane. Guy at the marina tells me merc can take two inches of PITCH out of these suckers and maybe reduce the diameter to 15" to make them 15 x 25's. I'm thinking "are you nuts dude?" Diameter....yes; two inches off the pitch...Yikes. I'm thinkin when there done we could use them as BBQ skeewers or something. Can they do that kind of work on a prop?
Alright, everyone put their thinking caps on for me. God knows I need all the help I can get. With the original 3 blade, 4" hub, 17 x 24 cleavers this 11000lb boat comes out of the hole like my 3500lb 375 HP F206! However, with blades turning in, RPM is limited to about 4200 to 4300 rpm and I'm getting 52 mph. Oh and the blades fly off those suckers (minor problem). Now I have the 1.54 ratio trans but the only thing on the drive ratio is the secret code that KAAMA came up with to communicate with aliens or something. WHAT IS A " +8" DRIVE RATIO?? Alright, I'm pushing a lot of weight but HP is way up - 600 + at the crank but thats in the 5500RPM range. Any one have any ideas? I'm thinking 6" hub for the strength. Four blades for the holeshot. 16 or 16.5 diameter to help increase rpm. 25 pitch or less because thats what it seems it likes.... probably even 24 pitch. That doesn't seem like much in the pitch department especially if I want any speed out of this tank but if I can get the rpm into the low 5000 range it might make up for it. Can they really get a 27 pitch prop down to 25? Seems like that would be an expensive experiment. Anyone have any experience with this? ( i know - call the prop guys....but I luv you guys)
Well that's whats happening. And just remember that none of your props are safe tonight!!!!! Talk later ........Al :D

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Oh BTW .....hi Brent. Sense of humor?????? naw thats long gone. Doctors now have concluded that it's a massive case of paranoid scitzoid mania or something. I actually approach each day believing that something on the boat is going to blow up. Makes it much easier when those dreams actually do come true. Yours can too!!!! Just make me an offer on this baby. And then all your dreams will come true too!!!! You will all soon understand when I post a picture of the boat with it's name on it. Later guys

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Hey guys,
I've spent way too much time on oso researching this mess. My a$$ hurts from sitting here. I'm learning more every second though. After probing the bowels of OSO I believe (hypothesis only) that "+8" on the drive plate means 8% overdrive. Josh, What does your plate say? You said you were 1:1. How about you Cuda? I'm trying to figure out why a 27 pitch prop won't work behind a 600 hp engine and I might have been outfoxed by our friends at Formula and KAAMA. They may have changed the drive ratio to accomodate for the weight of a F402 or for a low horsepower original engine package. Does anyone here really know the drive ratio code? I posted on the tech question board to drum up help from our Scarab-kaama, stuphen-kaama, and other-kaama freinds. If i am overdriven, what does that mean in figuring prop pitch. Do I change the gear ratio or do I look for the elusive 22 pitch four blade surface piercing cleaver? AHHH, I love boating! Still considering 15 trolling motors bolted to the swim platform.........but how do I select props for them????? Talk to you later......Al

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

alj-
I just pulled my 357 out of the water last night. I will check the tag on the drives for any other numbers. I was wondering. Did the old power plants spin the 24p props better or "as good" than the new 540's? Something just isn't adding up. Maybe someone did a switcharoo on your gear set and didn't stamp it. I hope you get it figured out.

Josh

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

I agree something doesn't sound right. As the previous owner of Cudas boat, I turned 16X26 4 blade Kaama props 5800-5900 with a pair of warmed over 420's (maybe 475 per side).

Planning was quick( although did take some finness)

This was with 1.54 to 1 TD 502's and spinning them in.

I am aware that there is a weight difference ( alot ) between a 302 and a 402 but I would think that the HP difference should put them somewhere in the ball park.

Also, dont even consider 3 blades!!! I tried a set on the 302 and the vibration was terrible!!! I think the combination between older props and additional vibration of the 3 blade is what caused the failures.

The 4 blades still seemed to have a natural frequency but not nearly as bad as the 3's

Torrsionals are a voodoo science and can do strange things that don't make sence, and the engine change can make something that worked in the past, unbearable now.

I am curious too as to what RPM's the 375's turned the original 3 blades?

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Morning guys,
Problem I have is there is no real benchmark for me with this boat. I am the third owner. Of course Formula isn't much help because they claim they have no records on boats older than 1988 when they moved the factory. Supposedly they lost all those records in the move. (didn't they invent the computer before 1988?) so I really have no way to verify the original setup. I only have the second owners knowledge on what it was before he started fooling around with it. The original owner sounds like some rich guy who just used this thing as a toy and didn't mess around with it much. But....who knows! Based on other KAAMA boats I've seen, this is what I do know. It was the Early KAAMA package before the innovation motors. The motor is the Hardin Marinized package. Headers were the Hardin P-1000 with the KAAMA logo plates on them. Innovations used GIL headers I believe. If the original motors were 330's they would have stock cast iron manifolds. I saw that on a F402 KAAMA in Vegas. So with the headers it was at least a 375 hp package if not the 400hp package. In 85 Formula was working with some of the older Hardin packages (single ram steering is best give away) and they made it into the early boats. Single ram steering may have also indicated a lower HP package like the 375. Most of the F302's in 85 had the dual ram steering so maybe the higher HP package or the Innovation motor package. Not sure there.
Anyway, The second owner of my boat wanted better performance. I know he dove into the drives but I believe only to the extent of the inside CV joints, the gimble bearings on the intermediate housings and the outer CV's. Also changed the boots. On the drives themselves if anything it was bearings and seals. On the motors it was a different story. By the time I got ahold of it lots had been changed to get more performance. The big thing was that he had changed the drives to rotate out. This made the boat ride bow high. Also allowed the RPM to run very high - 5600 rpm or more. But it didn't want to plane off. The motors only lasted about an hour of running time. Found out that the port engine had been rebuilt twice and both had less than an hour of time with him blowing the port side up just before selling it to me. When the other one let loose on Lake Michigan and my engine builder inspected it he told me to pull the other as well because things were a little scary in the starboard motor he was looking at. The 2nd rebuild on the port engine turned out to be even a worse nightmare, just enough to get the engine to run! Everything was junk. Knurled pistons to make them fit, gouged cylinder walls only honed, you name it. This previous owner had an engine builder who really screwed him over! I was able to salvage very little on those engines. Thankfully my builder had some interesting short block assemblies he knew of. And I felt the KAAMA"s could handle it. So my benchmark for this poor boat was crappy engines that were set up with drives that turned out and the setup had never really been tested much. And being a newbie to KAAMA's I wouldn't have known anything was wrong. I thought everything was normal.
After redoing everything and changing the drives back to turning in I'm now starting from scratch. One interesting thing is that Andrews F402 KAAMA in Spokane Washington is running three blade short hubs but he says they are 22 pitch in a post I read somewhere. This boat does plane amazingly fast with the 17 x 24 three blades. I was actually thinking that would be an area of performance sacrifice in selecting props. First time out I expected the same planing as with the drives turning out. Plates down, drives down, throttles to 3000 rpm and I was going for a cup of coffee. Boy was I shocked when I nosed the boat over and was scrambling to get the plates up before I stuffed it at 15 miles per hour on a calm lake. :eek: It was really nice for a boat this size. I actually got a little running time between broken props and planing was consistently good. The boat rides extremely flat though, even with the drives at the top of the yellow and into the red slightly the bow stays down. My guess is that is normal for a KAAMA. So there is a whole bunch of this 40 foot hull in the water at planing speeds. Rpm was at best 4200 or 4300. Speed in the low 50's. I truly expected planing problems with those 16 x 27 four blades I tried yesterday but they just blow out too easy. My buddy Tom was with and said it seemed they just weren't grabbing the water and couldn't believe it based on how intimidating those props appear. (he drives a Carver....what does he know!)
Josh, I'll be interested to see what your drive code is. Its just to the right of the serial number on the bottom of the id plate. Anyone who knows the secret code let me know. Thanks for looking in on me.....Al

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Alj
I just got doen doing what I do most on this thing: cleaning! Checked the plates in my drives for the "secret #" that is where my ratio is stamped 1-1. It is just to the right of the serial #. I donno what the 8 means. Would call archer marine in Cali and pic there brains. They will be able to help with that question.
I will dump this 357 in at Grand Traverse Bay and swing down to Ill. to check that 402 out. Should only take about 10 hours. and 600 gallons of fuel! hehe. Anyway hope you figure it out.

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Hello boyz,
I'm learning more about KAAMA's then I ever hoped. Fishead Mark has done a bunch of gearchanges and told me the "+8" indicates an 8 % overdrive gearset. Talked to a guy in Chicago today that has worked on these pups and he tells me there was a performance setup 1:1 and a cruising setup +8%. The logic that we can figure out among my friends is that the F402 was really considered a cruiser and to have the cruising speed lowered they change the gear ratio. Kind of like my 402 having a 323 rearend gear for gas mileage and all you guys having a 456 rearend gear for drag racing. Now the trick is figuring out what prop will work. Fishead says it's cheaper to change the gears than to change props. Now I have these new engines that make their HP at 5000rpm and up and the boat is geared for running at lower rpm.
Anyone have any ideas to impart on me about prop selection? What's involved in the gear change in the drive. I saw somewhere that the gears were originally made for KAAMA by Casale engineering. Yea, the V-drive people. And they might still be able to supply parts. Anyone go this direction before? Hope you all have a good weekend....Al

Re: Expensive weekend! Need KAAMA help!
 

Have determined I need to change gearsets to the 1:1 gearset. Anyone know anything about these? How many teeth etc. Gearchange seems easier than trying to find some exotic 16.5" diameter x 22 or 23 pitch four blade prop and then hoping for the best.

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Bill, I'm glad you chimed in because I didn't know the ratio, and I thought they were 16x26 props, but wasn't sure. Were these props the originals that came on the boat?

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

I think running "flat" is the nature of the beast.

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

OH YEAH! My 402 runs so damn flat we have named it BOB. Big Old Brick. It runs the same at 2-8 on the drives and will not lift the bow. It runs 22 pitch Bravo 4 blades on TRS drives. We are running 56-58 at 4600 RPMS with warmed over 454's. But it will do that in 4 foot waves too :D :cool: :D

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Hey Cuda,
How's it going. Checked some old correspondence from the previous owner. Says the 375's (or whatever they were) turned about 4500 RPM. That is interesting I think. Any ideas on how to get the RPM range into the league that the F302 KAAMA's are at? I'd like to see at least 5200. Otherwise I'm probably going to need to go back to the drawing board on the engines. New cam to lower the peak HP range to below 5000RPM!???? I'm thinking that the gearing in the drives should be at the 1:1 ratio. Then go from there on the props. I wish someone at Formula that figured these beauties out in 1985 would still be around to tell me what they were doing and thinking back then.Any ideas guys? Hey cuda, can you check the plates on your drives to let me know what your ratio is? It's right after the serial number on the left side of the drive case. I'd be eternally grateful. I'm also going to be visiting in FLA this weekend. I'll be in Tampa but am thinking of running over to Lauderdale for a day or two. Any suggestions on shops to visit to check on used prop availability. I know BAM is in Lauderdale. Anyone else you can think of?

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Ramb here again.

Josh (perfect mix) and Alj. what if you guys swapped for the "fun of it" to try the ratios. Josh, if you are at 5200-5300 maybe you can pull the 8% overdrive and get more top end while adding some reeliability to engines??? at say 5000rpm? and Alj can verify the 1:1 works for him........ just a thought from an armchair quarterback......
afterall, ice will be forming in traverse city soon anyway :D

Ramb

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Ramb
Way to air that 272 out!!! Nice pics! Just ran the 357 from Mackinac to Elk Rapids. 100 trouble free miles! It's about time. I hope alj gets that 402 dialed in. I would love to here of that thing doing 70+. As far as the gears go. I've heard that they are pretty easy to change but I have never really looked into it. I bet Cuda could shed a little light on this subject. I have all of the manuals to these things, maybe I should actually read them.
Alj--keep searchin' man! You are going to be a Kaama encyclopedia when your through. Good Luck!

Josh

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Al, the post above from 302SR1 is the my boat. Bill say's they are 1.54:1, and I'm sure he's right. He did a lot more investigating on the Kamma than I have, he may know where to find props. Shoot him a pm, I'm sure he'll be glad to help. Give Throttle Up a call, they may know where to find them. They are in St Pete, just across the bay from Tampa.

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Thanks Ramb...... Can't think of a better way to test KAAMA drives than using them on our new Formula ice boats. Josh- I say we go steal his new boat and use it for parts. What do you think buddy?

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Wait Ramb ....Josh and I have a better idea. We bolt my 540's into the engine bay of your 272 and his 1:1 Kaama's on the back and go out jumpin waves with that setup. What do you guys think? Maybe use my drives as bowthrusters on it . I think thats the hot setup....Al

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Ramb here again.

ah.. yea sure.....!!!!!! but i'm still fixing from the damage cause by last weeks "photo session" :rolleyes:

and armchair engineering again, but the 1.54 ...wouldn't that be the trans gearing (along with a 1:1 drive gearing) equal about the conventional 1.5 ratios of today... that makes more sense than a 1.54 drive ratio in the kaamas ....maybe I read wrong......

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

OUCH!!!
But, I still thinks the pics were worth it. Nice air Ramb!

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Hey Guys,
Back from Florida last night. Cuda, Thanks for the heads up about Matt and Julie at Throttle up props.We went to see them on Friday and bent their ears for about 2 1/2 hours. They are really great people. And they gave me a great education on prop problems. They ran my numbers through their prop computer and my setup should result in 72 mph. They also confirmed that the props broke primarily because of stress cracks that had been there awhile and allowed the inner metals to corrode and weaken the blades at the crack just as IGGY had pointed out. Lesson here.... Have your props checked for cracks guys. Also.... blades coming off of props is a lot more common than we mere mortals think. Second thing we determined... the 8 % overdrive gives me an effective gear ratio of like 1;41 to 1 overall. The Kaama's have two gearing areas , one is the 1:54 to gears in the trannies and the other is the gearset in the drives allowing ...minus 13% (underdrive), minus 8% (underdrive), 1:1 (even gearset); plus 8% (overdrive); and plus 13% (overdrive). I am set up with a plus 8% overdrive while most of you have 1:1 in your KAAMA's. This probably would have been speced out by Formula or KAAMA to accomodate for the increased weight of this boat, or a lower horsepower engine package that may have been used. It would give the boat a lower RPM cruising speed or range and allow it to have better gas mileage. The problem is that with the 24 pitch props, this gear ratio holds the engines in the 4200 to 4400 rpm range at WOT. A BIG problem according to Matt at Throttle UP. At 4400 my engines are now in their peak TORQUE range not peak horsepower range. Torque breaks weak parts (like props)! And if it weren't the props that broke it would simply move along to the next weakest link like shafts or gears or transmissions, etc. (can you say Bravo drives) Anyway the game plan is now pretty interesting. Funny thing about KAAMA's. They are insanely simple mechanisms. Reverse the gears in the drives from plus 8% overdrive and you get minus 8% underdrive. New effective gear ratio?? Now it's a 1.66 to 1. New WOT rpm range is now 5400rpm. Way past peak torque and into peak HP land where engines and drive components like to run and not explode. I will need to change the gears around and I need to find a set of 17 diameter x 24" pitch four blade long hubs to test. When I get the figures on WOT rpm and speed plus planing with those props, Matt and Julie can start tweaking exactly what my final props will be. I need large diameter to aid in stern lift for planing. Smaller than 16.5" doesn't work. And we will start with 24" pitch and go from there. Well these folks really helped steer me in the right direction and I can't recommend them any more highly. Hopefully this will help send them more business. Thanks again for the heads up Cuda. Now....anyone taken a drive apart????

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Oh Ramb,
Nice job there on the platform. Now what can Josh and I get out of that thing for parts???? :D
And will somebody buy this poor guy a membership????

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

Glad to be of help alj. Throttle Up have great customer service.

Re: Expensive weekend!
 

i'll trade you my functioning bravos and 25's for your kaamas and 26's ....oh i need your trannies too. and i'll throw in a slightly used swim platform. :D

sounds like you learned alot and seem to comprehend everything they told you. how simple to switch the gears and get underdrive and pretty smart too.

josh (perfect mix) has pulled his apart and replaced bearings so he may give you pointers on the the gear swap.

what does a stupid membership cost nowdays anyway, and how long does it last...


please excuse my typing errors, do't have time to be grammar correct (waterfoul must cringe when he reads these)


Ramb