Decision on exhaust issue
 

Well after talking this over with a bunch of people, and a couple of well known engine builders in the area, I've decided to yank the manifolds back off the motors when Gusman gets back from Minnesota and have water jackets milled into the manifold flanges.

One of those deals where common sense tells me it "should" be okay just to bolt them up and go, but when did common sense ever enter the world of boating. Hell if we had any common sense we wouldn't own these resin bucket money eaters. I don't want to have spent this much time, effort, and money to take a chance, so I'm going to do it in a manner I feel comfortable with. Sucks because I'll miss the New Year's Day Fun Run and have 372 more days of listening to Cuda ride my azz. :D

Anyway there are some things I can do to get it finished up, but the exhaust is just going to have to wait until Gusman gets back. I know my luck and I'm not going to chance it.

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Outlaw, what made you choose the Eddie Marine exhaust? I plan on using Lighning headers for my new motors. I am just curious what you know.

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Russ,

I ran 454 mag 365hp with those same EMI exhausts you have. No problems at all. Not sure if I am missing something here...

You also talk about building new motors, or upping your HP, and those EMI's won't do for that - well at least the risers anyways, so you are looking at new exhaust then as well.

What's the problem / fear that you think you need water jackets milled? I could run my setup WOT for 1/2 hr, no problems.

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

I keep waffling back and forth on this issue and it's driving me up a wall. Jay I need some help here. Just to be sure we're on the same page, your set up was that you had water jackets in BOTH the risers and spacers but no water jackets in the flange of the manifolds, correct? That is my set up. The concerns have been (not mine, I'm not qualified which is why I'm asking so many people and questions), that if that by water not circulating through the spacer, that the water/spacer might get hot enough to burn a gasket and allow water to get into the engine. As Cuda stated, one would think that if steam was created it would follow the easiest way out, via the risers. If there were no water jackets in the spacers I can see where they would get extremely hot being "dry" and all. It would make sense to me that if there is ANY water in those jackets that they would transfer heat, steam would be created, steam would rise and exit through the riser, only to be replaced by more water. Now does that make sense to you guys? If you guys have the same situation I have, and are not having any problems with it, I don't see why I would. It's one of those situations I don't trust my own knowledge enough which again is why I'm asking. Do I WANT to take those manifolds off and mill them? Hell no. I want to bolt my boat back together and run it. If you guys are running the EXACT same situation, and are not having any problems, then I'm ready to say screw it and take the chance. I mean I am tired of having the neighborhoods largest lawn ornament. I want to enjoy my boat. Cuda told me to talk to Ray Heinke at Force 10 Marine in Clearwater this afternoon. Cuda swears by him, I know him slightly through OPBA. Ray has been building, working on hi po motors for as long as there's been motors. He advised against bolting the water jacketed risers and spacers up to an "un" jacketed manifold flange, for fear heat would burn the gasket out. I honestly don't see that much heat building up there but I DON'T KNOW THAT IT WON'T. Again, if you guys are running that type of system and not having problems, I'd say that a strong case to bolt it together. Just remember, I have the risers AND the three inch spacers above the manifold. The hose would run from the manifold up to the riser, bypassing the spacer. I can't run a hose to the spacer because the four water jackets, being milled from solid aluminum billet, are independent of each other, whereas the stock Merc risers, being cast, the water jackets connect to each other. On that thought, it would make sense that the "inside" water jacket would be the hottest.

I'm telling you this has just got me so perplexed it's not even funny anymore.

Dustin: I have basic 454 motors and don't need something as potent at the Lighting Headers, although if I go to bigger power I would certainly use them. For my current purpose, the Eddie Marine units serve the purpose just fine. Plus Too Old aka Trick Marine gave me a deal on them. I have also talked to others who ran these systems and like them. So that is the reasoning behind the Eddie Marine units.

Jay: The Eddie Marine manifolds USED to have water jackets milled in them but they discontinued that practice and went strictly the "hose" route about three years ago. Not to sound repetitive but are you sure your EMI manifolds DO NOT have water passages in them?

This is a very big decision because if I guess wrong I'm going to blow my motors up.

Thanks guys for the input. I DO appreciate it. Russ

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Do you have pics of your machined 3" risers. You should run water through them. I would not mill the manifolds. You might be able to cross drill and pipe plug unwanted ports where you cannot see the plugs to run water from manifold via hose to bottom of spacer, out top of spacer to pipes. Dry spacers won't work with out melt down. As for removing the manifolds, if you decide to mill water holes, why not just drill them bolted up to the motors. If you are worried about chips just run about 10-15 PSI air in the water inlet hole with the outlet plugged and let the air PSI keep the chips out of the water jacket of the manifolds.

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

here is the way I am seeing it, if you didnt have the spacers, you would just be bolting it to manifold anyhow, and it would act as a block off plate. So the water in theory would end there anyhow. How much difference would the 3 inch spacers make, just another 3 inches of hole to hold water, it is going to be blocked off none the less. Secondly, could you use copper or aluminum gasket material to make the gaskets? Same as headers on a car exhaust? I know that certain things on cars dont work on marine apps, but just food for thought...Rob

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

THANK YOU ROB, that is exactly the way I am seeing it, I just couldn't put it in those exact words. Every set of manifolds/risers being sold for the last three years have had water jacketed risers being bolted to unjacketed manifolds. Eddie Marine reports no problems in that application. And the gaskets they sent me, according to them, are adequete for the job, something Gusman (my mechanic) agrees with.

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

You are the second person to suggest just drilling them in place. I've probably drilled about a gazillion holes in my life but I'm scared to death to start drilling on my new manifolds. BUT it would save some time and money not having to pay a machine shop to do it. I'll just down a bottle of "Jack" and get out the drill.

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

My old and current setups had the jacketed manifolds with the slots in them, so that is different than what you have. However, my mechanic just welded the slots closed in mine as I have stainless risers that only use the hose connection. Now I never will have any leaks! The reason EMI probably stopped using the slotted manifold design is that tons of people including myself were experiencing leaks (I know of 3 personally). Mine were leaking from the previously owner's poor installation, but thank god he only ran the motors for about 2 hrs and the leaks were minor.

I do not have spacers, and I will claim that I am NO EXPERT, but here's my 2 cents worth (probably all it's worth!) If the manifold is being cooled, and the riser is being cooled, I don't think that the spacer is going to get overly hot on a normal engine. When the cooling systems is working normal you can grab these parts with your hands under operation. I would use a high heat Permatex gasket sealer on the surfaces when installing -something like this
http://www.permatex.com/selector_cha...&item_no=81160
I have used this stuff before with great success. It says it holds up to 650 degrees, and if your exhaust parts are that hot you have bigger problems!!

You could always throw it together, and measure the spacer temps with an infrared heat gun. Add the additional cooling later if needed...

Again, just my thoughts. Good luck!

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Russ, after more thought.................. The spacer will be bolted to the manifolds and risers, which are both cooled. By being bolted together, both sides would conduct heat off the spacer. Just food for thought.

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

But keep in mind the spacers are cut from Billit stock correct? and have the passages made already. hence they will have water in them, and the fact that being aluminum, they will conduct heat better than steel or cast iron, and shouldnt crack. I would check it after running with the temp gun and if you have a huge difference only mess with it then...

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Okay guys that does it. I'm going for it. If I blow my motors I will put a "virtual" coffee can out for collections for new motors. Thanks for the input.

Besides I never run my boat hard anyway, I'm too afraid I'll break something that I won't be able to afford to fix.

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Just looked again at the Permatex selection - I'd use the Ultra Copper - recommended for exhaust manifolds temps to 700. I have used the Ultra Black before and it worked well, but the copper is ths best one they make.

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Hey Outlaw, you're killing me here :D :D

It's funny to read this chit because I get the same uneasy feelings when I'm doing stuff thats right on the edge of my knowledge/experience levels. Seems I can't ask enough questions and then when I get those answers, I over-analyze the crap out of them (again, with limited knowledge to analyze it in the first place) :(

I haven't chimed in here before because I'm not qualified to give an opinion. Just wanted to let you know I go through the same chit on some of my projects. It's good to know you're not just tossing the thing together. Hell, most people aren't even smart enough to ask the questions. Hang in there dude and I hope it all works well.

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Stupid question please.....I use this Ultra Copper along WITH the Eddie Marine gaskets, correct? Not just use the Ultra Copper by itself.

I'm going to do this.

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Yes use the gasket too, though you can use this stuff to make a gasket as well. You can get this stuff at Napa, etc. Sounds stupid, but read the instructions on the back!

Try not to use too much, as when the surfaces are bolted together it is going to squirt out some - not a big deal. Torque the riser bolts down evenly to insure that the surfaces mate squarely.

Good luck! Signing off until New Years! If you get stuck, ask in the tech section! Have a great holiday!

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Jay thanks for the tip. Yeah, I know to tighten the bolts in a "crossing" pattern to seat it evenly.

Third, I laughed just reading your reply. I've analyzed this so much I need to call Billy Crystal.

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Good luck. The heat gun deal makes sense. Get some running data. You are looking for temps to stabilize at an acceptable level, say around less than 150 degrees F.

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAH AHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAH cough ...Ha .........

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Formula did you have them cut in water passages into your risers? If so then just have them tap a fitting into it and wala you will have the water flow that is making you uncomfortable. However if it was me I would just drop them on and run them and check. My guess is that they will be fine. At this time however what do you have to loose? Start it up and test it, run it, test it. Who knows it is more then likely ok but by taking it out and testing it you will know for sure and as long as you take your time you will find out and not risk any fire. The damn thing is together give it a try. For christ sakes you sound worse then me!!!!! :eek: :eek: :p :p

Jon

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

As has been said if they feel to hot then just drill two holes for each slot. There is NO WAY IN HELL you need to pull them off the boat to have them machined. All you should need would be like two 1/8" holes in each slot. But again there is NO WAY I would do that untell I tested it first to see. You are much better off with out those holes there if it will work with out them.

Jon

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Jon, the risers came with the slots already in place. Then I took one of the risers to the machine shop for them to use as a pattern to mill out the spacers, not knowing that the manifolds had no water jackets. Your suggestion about drilling as a last resort is exactly what I'm going to do. Eddie Marine said the water jacket "area" was only about one quarter to three eights of an inch under the solid part of the flange and I have some high priced special metal drill bits that would do the job. I figured on three holes per flange. I just want to make sure I don't end up restricting the water flow too much. I'd actually thought about that if I end up drilling holes, which I really prefer not to, I might run the hose as well and make sure I've got plenty of "flowage" but then again maybe I'd have to much. Here I go again over analyzing. Time to call Billy Crystal again.

As far as sounding "worse than you" I take that as a compliment of the highest order.:D

Besides once in a while someone has to take some of the heat off of you and Fred. :D

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Russ, I'm not sure, but I think Johno has an infared heat gun.

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

I saw the infared thermos at Home Depot or Sears ....seems like 34.95 ...cheap ..

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

I have no clue what an infared heat gun is. Have never seen one. Guess it tells the temperature of something huh???? Duhhhhhh!!!!!!!!! :D :D

Can't believe it's going to rain all day tomorrow. Pisses me off.

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

uses infared light ...point it at object ..."spacer" and it tells you what the surface temp is ....Alot of AC guys use em ...

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

you know you got me thinking about mine now .... :cool:

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Outlaw you only need probably like 2 small holes btwn each stud on the manifolds if in fact you do have to much heat build up. All you are trying to do it to get a little water flowing through there. You DEFINATLY STILL NEED THE HOSE attached from the manifold to the riser or your water preasure will be off the charts. You will not lower the water preasure by having to many holes and what not so don't worry about that.

As for how to know about the heat then I would just use the old hand test. Put your hand on the manifolt, riser, and the spacer that you made. If there is not a large difference in temp then I would say you are fine.

Jon

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

I kinda agree with Jon ...I was thinking water passages as large as the risers ..when you were talking machining them .... but 1/8" holes ...just to flow some water ...makes sense ...how could this adversly affect the entire system ? If the water dumps in the riser close enough to backflow to the spacers anyway makes sense to have some flow thru them rather than just sitting there getting hotter. But .....testing as is not a huge deal either ..

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

An advantage to putting small holes in the manifold is that you can drian them if you are going to have the boat sit for some time. What typically causes some of the problems that people have is to let them sit all winter with water in the risers. If you put in that small 1/8" hole or slightly larger just in case you suck up some sand, then if you pull the bottom hose off the manifolds they will drain completely. With out them there they will only drain into the spacer and the water will stay in the spacer.

The design that is on those risers really makes it about the same as the stock Merc set ups. On most Gills, Stainless marine and so on the riser also is blocked off so that there is ZERO chance for water to get into that connection btwn the manifold and riser.

If it was my I would drill two 1/8 or larger holes if you are worried about sand, bolt the faulker together and BEAT IT!!! I am damn near ready to hop on a plane and fix it myself and send you pictures from the water :D:D

Jon

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

It would make sense to me to go ahead and drill two one eighth inch holes in each water jacket area now while it's still apart to get some water flowing through there. It would be a real pita to have to take it all back apart to drill the holes. I'd rather just go ahead and do it now and be done with it. Like you guys said, it can't hurt anything as long as I dont drill too deep. Eddie Marine said it was only about one quarter maybe three eights of an inch down from the surface of the flange to the water jacket area. So I'll just mark a drill bit at three eights of an inch, or put a "bit lock" on it and go for it. All in all this seems to make the most sense. I'll end up with water flowing through the riser, the holes shouldn't be big enough to take a risk of screwing up. This is what I think I'm gonna do, as soon as it stops raining.

You guys agree????

PLEASE SAY YES SO I CAN GET THIS DAMN BOAT BACK TOGETHER. THANKS.

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Just think Russ .....there is a chance you beat that ugly "Jan 1" ..you know Cuda's gona pound you if you pass that 365th day .....

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Yesterday it was 72 degrees here. (tempt tempt tempt) :D :D Today rainy and cold, low 50's. Warm up by Tuesday. Am taking Wed. through Friday off of work to get this back together.

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Go for it. Measure twice and drill once. Two holes per manifold should do it. Use the copper RTV and gaskets top and bottom. Let us know how it turns out.

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Just gonna stick a gasket on top of the flange of the manifold, use a fine point marker to draw where the water jacket would be, drill two holes on all four sides and repeat three times. Then bolt it all up.

Should be a cinch.

Famous last words.

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Unless I get mine back together tomorrow, Russ may be starting a count on me! :eek: :(

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Now would I do that???????? :D :D :D :D

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

Joe .. what ever happened about that ? you referring to the starter issue ? Wasnt there water in the motor ?

Re: Decision on exhaust issue
 

I broke the starter, but I don't think it was from water. I also had a blown power valve on the carb of that engine. I think it may have back fired while trying to start and broke the starter. I woke up sick as hell this morning and it's pouring rain. I gotta get the boat fixed. It shouldn't take me more than an hour to put the starter and the carb back on.