Shorties?
 

well after reading all the posts on -2 lowers Iam almost convinced that I need them. but before I fork out 8000+ I need a couple of more questions answered.

I have a 97 35 lightning with worked 502's pushing approx 525 hp. Still have the stock bravo I drives they are in good shape.

boat will run 82-83 with standard bravos according to the feedback in a previous thread. If a replace the lowers with imco or bravo shop lowers with my motor set up what performance #'s will I see? Is there a need to run a different prop than the one i will run with a standard lower?

All feedback is welcome, I need all the help I can get making my choice. Iam already over budget in my motor rehab. BUT isn't it the story of high performance.

Re: Shorties?
 

this topic has been beaten to death - but I'm in the same situation as yourself low 80's with standard drives & mid 80's with the -2 lowers - is it worth the cash - its up to you - I myself will be going with the bravo shop lowers, in my opinion it is the most reliable MPH gain your going to get. & Yes you will need to move up in prop size

Re: Shorties?
 

Save some MONEY for drive spacers if you want to tune it for speed and handling . I had a 35 and 1'' up was about right !

Re: Shorties?
 

what uppers will you use and with how much horse power?

I LIKE THE BRAVO SHOP LOWERS MYSELF BUT i HAVE TO REPLACE MY BRAVO ONE UPPERS FOR XR UPPERS OR BETTER i RATHER NOT SPEND THE EXTRA MONEY BUT
i 'AM NOT SURE OF THE LONGEVITY OF THE XR'S
WHAT RESULTS PEOPLE HAVE HAD WITH 700HP XR'S

Re: Shorties?
 

Are you saying that a -1 shorties is the better possibility ?

Re: Shorties?
 

I going to run stock upper's with Bravo Shop -2 lowers 600 HP & cross my fingers. :eek:

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you tryed some shorter lowers before you put the boat away ,what was the out come.

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I think he gained 5mph

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If -1 works out better than -2 then a different brand of gearcase might be in order like Teague

Re: Shorties?
 

If you go with imco's be prepared to have issues with your water pressure. Some have complained that they don't get enough pressure (on 35's), and others, like myself, have way too much pressure after installing imco's.

I guess it varies boat to boat, model to model. But for the 5 mph I picked up, it was worth it.

Re: Shorties?
 

do you think XR sport master -2 's would give same type results?

Re: Shorties?
 

I haven't tried -2 sportmasters but I would sure like to. I have talked to some race teams about the -2 sportmasters, and they say that while they are not as fast in a straight line as the -2 imco's, overall their boat handles better with them on, especially in the turns. The longer skeg on sportmasters has more bite in the water so it gives you better control, but at the cost of a little speed.

I was running standard length sportmasters, and I have no doubt that -2's sportmasters would have run faster - just not quite as fast as the imco's.
If you are running XR's and thinking about switching to -2 sportmasters, how much they help you will depend on how fast you are running. They are more hydrodynamic than the XR's but you won't see that benefit kick in unless your boat is running over 90 mph.

If anyone has an extra set they would like to get rid of I'd be interested in them. I have a set of standard length sportmasters as well if anyone is interested in them.

Re: Shorties?
 

I tested a set of the -2 Sportmaster Lowers and seen 4-5 mph gain. I hoping to see a bit more using the imco or bravo shop lowers. My X Dim on my '99 is 16 3/4 which is basically 2" lower than the newer 35 X 's out there.

Re: Shorties?
 

This has admittedly been beaten to death, but is scattered all over this site. Personally I have thought of starting a thread to attempt to gather all the info on this "Shortie" topic into a single thread. I think we all could benefit .

I have a 99 35 Lightning, stock 500 carb's, complete rebuilds last summer after being bitten by the Crane valve spring bug, runs 82-83 mph with stock 26 4b Hydros or 28 Lab Bravos. I am seriously interested in getting some more performance/speed from this package, but resisted the temptation to tweak the engines during rebuild because last ride was a drive crushing nightmare. Ran upper 90's but ate Bravos on a way to often regular basis.

Sooooo Here's the deal !!!!! We are all looking to improve the performance of our boats. We all know that a standard Bravo drive has it's limits. We all know more power means more speed, but also means more stress on that drive which leads to it's failure and big dollars to fix something that will simply fail again.

Sooooo Let's share what we know. Straight foreward info, real experiences, what your buddy saw for results with "Shorties", and see if we can gather all this info into one thread. Then we can make intelligent decisions, spend our money wisely, and all end up running faster!!!!!

Here's what I know:
Two close friends both running late 90's single step 35 Fountains gained 6 MPH by changing to -2" Imco lower's. Both these boats were in the high 90's and are now over 100 MPH. One, MV35 was at 104 after the change to the -2" Imco lowers, no other changes, a 6 MPH gain from the standard length Bravo lowers. Then cut the difuser off the Maximus 5 blades he was running and ran 109.9.

Newer 35 Executioners run an "X" dimension that is 2" higher than Fountain used in the late 90's. These boats with 496 Mag HO's will run close to 80 MPH. I have run next to several and have been more than impressed with the way this set up runs. These two hulls, my 99 Lightning and the new Executioners, are the same and therefore the plain and simple fact is that the higher "X" makes up for a lot of the horsepower difference.

The current owner of my last boat changed to Imco's, same "X" and gained 5-6 MPH. No doubt just the more hydrodynamic design of the lower. Also claims the boat is more stable at speed than before.

Sooooo Let's get this going!!!! Shorties vs Regular. Imco's vs Merc Sportmasters. Speed vs Handling. Real info. Real experiences. In the end we all stand to gain.

BTW Robert, no prob with valve spring deal, I love the boat. Just one of these Hi Po deals.

Re: Shorties?
 

Great Post Ragged Edge.

To bring you up to date on my project, I had put a set of 525's in a 2000 38 Fountain Fever (I bought it with no power or drives). The boat came with the factory X dimension of around 16 1/2 . When the riggers installed the 525's last summer I had them raise it an inch to around 17 1/2.

The boat ran 81's tops running standard length Sportmaster lowers and 30 bravo one's. At the end of the season I finally put on a set of -2 polished Imco shorties and 32 bravo ones and on my first trip out with no chop the boat ran 86+ and was solid as a rock. I had high water pressure issues though.

During the off-season I was kicking around the idea of putting blowers on my 525's but thought better of it because of reliability fears with both the engines and the XR drives. I then ran into a good deal on a set of new takeout 625 Ilmors and decided to put them in the boat.

At the request of Ilmor the boat is being rigged at a racing shop outside of Cleveland. Today the riggers sat one of the Ilmors down in the boat and the drive shaft is off by about an inch, so they are going to have to rise my drives up by 1 to 1 1/2" in order to get things to line up. Because of that, and due to the fact the Ilmors are going to weigh around 600+ lbs lighter than my 525s, they were going to have to install spacers in my drives to get them back down to where they were with the 525's. So I thought about that for a while and after talking to a few people I have decided to put a set of Imco Stand off Boxes on the back end. This will have the effect of lowering the drives the required 1 1/2 lower in the water, adding some of the weight to the back end, and as an added benefit, the Imco boxes have a soft coupler that (say the experts) cushions the connection between the drives and the engines. I have been told by those who have tried it that it really prolongs the life of the drives in higher HP applications. I don't expect to gain any speed from the boxes, but some have said that their boats seem to take the rough water better after installing boxes. Since you have to pull the engines in order to install them, I figure now is the time to do it. Also, I have been told that installing spacers can reduce the life of drives. So doing something that increases drive life seems like the better move to me. Plus they look cool :)

I don't know about 38's, but the few 35's that Fountain put out with extension boxes ran around 85 with 500's - about 4 - 5 mph faster than their counterparts without them.

I'll let you know how they work out.

P.S. I"ll have a nice set of 525 efi's going up for sale as soon as the Ilmors are a go in the boat. Let me know if anyone is interested. One has just 38ish hours on it, and the other around 90 with fresh valve springs put in before it went into the Fountain - so just 38 hrs with the new springs. I'm looking to get around $33,500 for the pair.

Re: Shorties?
 

Back to the top!

Re: Shorties?
 

What are your X-diminsions? The X on my 35 is 16 3/8 per the performance report. What is the X on the new executioners? What props are they running to hit 80? I have 14.5x28 4 blades. Hp500s 84.5 radar on the report.

Re: Shorties?
 

Hey Marginmn/Robert -

I followed the deal on your boat and BYW I like that paint job! ;0. Want a pair of fresh 500's in trade on those 525's?? LOL!! I'll give you a call on the phone some day. We should BS and catch up.

I'm really hoping that we can get all of this shortie information gathered up where we call all maybe learn something from this.

Say hi to the Mrs. from the both of us.

Peter

Re: Shorties?
 

I talked to the factory today and they said the new 35's and 38's are running as much as 19 to 19 1/2.

Re: Shorties?
 

Damn. Do they make a -3 shorty??!

Re: Shorties?
 

BTW mine is a 1995.

Re: Shorties?
 

Good to hear from your Peter.

Have you ever seen that old Jimmie Stewart movie "Winchester 73?" The premise of the movie is that once in a Blue Moon a Rifle comes down the Winchester Factory line that is absolutely Perfect in every aspect - so much so that rather than sell it to the general public they let the best shooters compete for the honor of owning it.

People who know Fountains say that they have never seen a more perfect Fountain come of the production line than yours. I like the paint on my boat, but it just doens't lay as nice on the 38 as it did on the 35 ex. With it being my first Fountain, I just didn't really appreciate how well it was put together until I tried to find one just as nice - I'm still looking and none has even come close to it.

If you ever go to sell it, I don't no that I'll would be interested but I am pretty sure that Lorrie would be. She's still mad at me for selling it. :D

Re: Shorties?
 

Imco makes a -3 but it won't bolt to the Merc drive, it only works with the imco upper.

If you want the best advice on what would work best on your boat call Fountain and ask for Marty or Chris in customer service. They will likely know where your boat's x will run best. You might also have your boat's Vin number handy when calling - they will have all the factory records on it.

252-975-2000

Re: Shorties?
 

Thanks
Good luck with the v-10s

Re: Shorties?
 

I have a pair of the IMCO Extremes for sale in the classifieds. Even with standard lenght, the lower alone may increase your speed. The drives could easily be converted to -2 lowers with a new case and shorter verticle shaft.

I'm in NJ, if you're interested let me know. :cool:

Re: Shorties?
 

RAN DOM 32
From seeing other posts of yours I believe you run a single step 35 Lightning. Could you share how the boat handled with the -2 Sportmasters. What happened to tpo end RPM , and what different props you tested. I would be very interested in the handling comments, I love the way my 35 runs in rough water now and would not want to give up anything. By rough I mean three footers - good stiff wind chop.

To share some more info based on my setup - 99 single step 35 Lightning,stock and fresh 500 carbs,standard "X" dimension (not sure of exact measurement, but will check out in next few days). Props tested:


1 ) 26 Hydromotive 4 blades - rotating inward - stock - non lab : Shows 84 on speedo at 5350 - 5400 RPM. Boat planes well, but props will sonetimes slip when at real slow cruise. The faster you go the better they hook up, 3500 RPM on up they work fine. At speed they make the boat feel very solid, regardless of water conditions. On my last boat, a 32 Velocity - 525 SC's - std. Bravos - 97 to 98 MPH - the Hydro's acted the same. The low to mid range slip was a little more pronounced but went away as speed increased, lots more pitch on the old rig.

2 ) 28 Bravo 4 blades - rotating inward - stock - non lab : Shows 83 on speedo but at 4950 - 5000 RPM. On plane is easier, no slow cruise slip. Acceleration is a little slugish compared to the Hydros. Likely due to the increased blade area and the fact that the mid range slip of the Hydros allows the engine RPM to come up quicker. A fair running prop, good cruisers, but RPM too low and handling at speed is so so. Only run for a few hours one afternoon vs lots of time with the Hydros.

3 ) 27 Hydromotive 4 blades - rotating inward - not lab, but had blades thined out, sharpened, and tweaked by Hydromotive for the Velocity when I was running the 1.36 gear set up : Same program as the other Hydros. Slip, speed and RPM about the same all around deal .Except for whatever reason one liked to slip a little more than the other at those low cruise speeds. Back in the boxes for these.
.
4 ) 28 Bravos - rotating inward - Merc lab finished, not specific to this boat, just the standard lab deal from Merc Racing : Shows that same 84 on speedo at that same 5350 - 5400 RPM. On plane is best of all tested so far. No slip at slow cruise, can maintain on plane at the lowest speed of any tested. Mid range cruise at any given RPM shows higher speed than the stock 26 Hydros, have run both back to back and recorded speed vs RPM in 500 RPM increments from just on plane to WOT. Great props! Probably the best all around set run so far. Acceleration was right there with the Hydros also. But the boat does not feel as solid at speed as it does with the Hydros in rougher water. Loses that seat of the pants " On A Rail " feel. Maybe just me, or just my many years running the Hydros. But definetly feels like it moves around a little more in the rough stuff, not enough to make one put these back in the boxes, just enough to keep you looking. I have run these and the 26 Hydros about an equal amount of time an feel both sets have their plus and minus traits on this boat. I would give these Bravos a slight edge in the all around department, they are a real pleasure to cruise or hot rod in average water
.
So whats next ? This spring I want to try a set of 28 Hydros maybe with a little cup removed to keep the RPM's up at 5400. And would be game to try some 5 blades, Hydro or Merc if some more info begins to show up here to indicate they may help.I am also looking foreward to seeing what shakes out with this attempt to gather up some real good info on the " SHORTIE " deal. I think likely a set of Shorties are in the cards fo me, just waiting to sort out the pros and cons each brand. In order to make a " reasonably intelegent " decision on how to " stupidly " dispose of my money. Lets keep this going! Remember that by putting up what we have learned we can all benefit. This could end up being the cheapest speed you ever gain, testing lowers and props is not cheap for any of us.

Re: Shorties?
 

Saw these in the classifieds.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/esvon/page-9357.html

Re: Shorties?
 

they are sold :D

Re: Shorties?
 

Ragged Edge, good info - my advise to you is invest in shorties & a GPS - your speeds a bit high off the speedo. Imco or Bravo shop lower's seem to be faster than the sportmasters from the info I have gathered.

Re: Shorties?
 

prior to running the shorties, my boat ran best with 28 Bravo's labbed & diffuser ring cut. When I ran the sportmaster -2 lower, the only prop I got to try was a 30P labbed bravo. ( same RPM)

Re: Shorties?
 

Are you the new owner?

Re: Shorties?
 

yep,
good think I checked the Classified's this morning, saved myself a few bucks, I was planning on going with Dean's lowers plus I had already acquired a set of -2 imco lower shafts.

Re: Shorties?
 

Are most you using your Bravo internals, or are you thinking that the IMCO lowers with IMCO internals are necessary? I wouldn't mind springing for a pair of IMCO lowers, (using my existing internals). I wonder what would have to be done to beef up the Bravos? Both lower and top case. Would you have to do something to the top part of the Bravo? I thought this was the weakest link? I had looked at the IMCO lowers and XR upppers for around $7500 a side. Now that is a chunk. Thanks.

Re: Shorties?
 

Ran-Dom 32,
Thanks for the response. Can you enlighten me a little more ? On your original standard setup did you see any gain when you cut the diffuser ring , and how much of the diffuser did you remove ? Were your props Merc labbed or one of the aftermarket gurus ? Where were you speed wise with your standard Bravo setup , and what was the gain with the -2 Sportmaster / 30" Bravo setup ? In your opinion how did the handling / control compare between the two setups ? Any water pressure issues ? Apologies in advance for all the questions. I'll be the first to admit this entire thread is an info fishing trip ! Your input is appreciated !
You are , by the way , correct regarding speeds posted. They seem high but they are noted as being per the speedo. Based on a hand held GPS and running next to several friends who have fixed GPS units my speedo reads about 2 - 3 MPH high. The reason that I posted the MPH in terms of speedo readings is because the hand held unit and friends were not a part of all the prop tests. Even though the speedo is not correct versus GPS or a radar gun it is consistent and always onboard. The comparison of one set of props to the others remains valid , at least as valid as any information can be from one boat to another. Again , the input is appreciated. I probably could have been a little clearer on this.

Re: Shorties?
 

picked up-2 sportmasters from Tres Martins classified last week

will post results in future

thanks Ragged & Random for your input !

38 1989 no step 650 blowers

Re: Shorties?
 

Has anyone tried the shorties from the Bravo Shop? Do they also have water pressure problems? How do they compare to the Imco's? They seem to be a little less money, just wondering if anyone has had experience with them? I was thinking about the 2"shorties since I found out that I have a 16 3/4" x-dimension.

Re: Shorties?
 

I would also be interested to know if there are any water pressure issues with the Bravo Shop lower. I'm considering one -2" for my -93 27 Fever.

Re: Shorties?
 

According to Dean (owner of the Bravo Shop) there is no increased water pressure. Also as compared to the IMCO he claims they are faster - the guy that had the set in the classifieds said he had tried both imco & Bravo shop (on a cat) & they were exactly the same top speed. I will post my results in a few weeks.

Re: Shorties?
 

Ran Dom 32 are you leaving your uppers stock or upgrading to x or xr gears? What year is your single step Fountain? It seems that the lowers from the Bravo shop are $3,380/each. That is with the larger vertical shaft and 1 year warranty. Is that about the going price? Dean said the B-Max, $12,000, was overkill for my situation.

Re: Shorties?
 

Rebel, my boat is a '99 & I will be running stock uppers & Bravo Shop lowers with my stock internals. The only thing I'm swapping out are the cases & obviously a shorty vertical shaft.