Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

let,s not forget that offshore at one time did have big money sponsors, Bacardi, Champion,Anheuser Bush, Hennessey,And this was back when the boats actually raced out in the ocean..
when I look at a lot of the old school photos here on OSO there seems to be no shortage of people watching those races
from the shore and definitely no shortage of spectator boats ether. There was nothing wrong with offshore racing the way it was, it just lacked good TV coverage. T2X has some of the best, most exciting racing footage ever recorded and we are only getting to see it now... 20+ YEARS AFTER THE FACT!!! :eek: I hope to see more DVDs from them... and I would like to see the APBA / SBI take some hints and a good look back at the past and see how exciting this sport was and could be... Just my .02

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Stinger 312- There were some big name sponsors onboard way back when. Ofcourse the Bacardi name carries over into today's racing but it is alone on the island. Anyway, the whole sports scene has changed dramatically and now sponsorships are based on exposures. That's where the tv was so important. It gave a mass exposure along with the exposure on-site. Problem is now, the television is being bought by the sanctioning bodies so we've seen the shows fall to Outdoor Network which is no where close to ESPN, ESPN2 or Speed. I am guessing that the OSS "show" is part of a series on Outdoor Channel as opposed to being a stand alone hour like it was. I am not real familiar with SBI/APBA's effort either so I maybe off a bit. It's somewhat the same problem the NHL is having right now. Their deal with NBC is the league pays for the production costs and air time and then splits with the network anything over that. Obviously, high player salaries play against the league having the money needed but until the sport gets considered "major" by the networks they have no choice but to buy the time. Boat racing has bought the time ever since I can remember. (Exception - Unlimited Hydroplane Racing on ABC's Wide World of Sports)
Television is limited by helicopter range and the amount of cameras needed to cover something like Ft. Lauderdale to the Bahamas. Donald Trump talked about wanting to televise the race he was putting on in Atlantic City. The day of the race the fog rolled in ... it would have killed a live signal. Satellites and such provide more technology but technology comes at a big time price.
SHANE B - You had me smiling. You are right about the "old" days and how the teams would show up and such. I'll tell you another angle. At one point I was asked about taking over the sport. I met with the owners and told them they would have to put up around $300,000 to $400,000 each in an escrow acount in my name. They looked at me stunned and asked why when they were going to pay such-and-such. I told them that from what I could see the rules of the sport were made by the ones who had the most money on the table and as I had no money close to what they had so I needed a stake to play at the table.
Things have changed somewhat and that's a good thing. Now I revert to the original premise of this thread ... in essence ... where does it go from here?

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Stinger 312-One more thing. You are right on about T2X and Darren. You are talking a real love of the sport in those two and thanks to them the archives are now in good hands.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

I look at it is that we have been developing a product over the last 30 years and it is a pretty good product. The product is not ready to go into production because it needs to be tweeked. The corporate brass keeps changing there minds and have different ideas in wich the product should be done. Over the years some of the brass got fed up and tried to develop there own version of the product and none have succeeded at the level of expectation they talk about. This widget has to many moving parts and needs to be simplified.
If I were looking to sell my version of this product, I would simplify it to the nth degree. If I had a little money to burn,
I would take a class like SVL invite them to a race (there is about 10 out there). No entry fees, free rooms, fuel, and tow money, Have a decent 25k purse.
I would run a short course 1mile straits, 25 lap race.
On board cameras facing front/back and in the cockpit. Camera boats on each turn, helo, and beach with a very excitiable announcer like Stan who does the SBI races now and knows the game. Have a production company edit all the best parts of the race together with the front, back, on board, and other footage such as pre race interviews with a little smack talk.
Put it all together and try to sell the pilot to Discovery, fox, or some other station as almost a reality show.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

ScottB- Right on the head! It goes back to the organizations and their goals again. It would have to be one whale of a product for the networks to buy the program but then again if you had a whale of a product you'd have sponsors interested. I can tell you for sure that if you take a sponsored show to the outlets, they would have interest.
I have to head out for the weekend as it is jammed as is Monday and Tuesday of next week but I will hope to continue this at some point. Those who have responded have had some great thoughts and I hope it doesn't stop with posts but rather continues not only here but in the pits and elsewhere. I am fearful that the two organziations that have evolved at this point are going to be into the ego thing and I don't know how to overcome that as it has been the problem for awhile.
To those racing this weekend safe journey's and safe racing ... if the thread is still up next week I'll be back then.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Shane, that's the same thing Reggie said. Winners hate parity because it slows them down. The rest of the field likes it because it finally gives them a chance to beat you.

How do you do it? Simple. Add some weight each time you win and take some out each time you finish in third or below.

Do you think fans would prefer to watch a run away race or side by side racing with several lead changes.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

I know what your saying. Its a touchy subject and there's a lot of different ways to look at the subject.

What would you do/think if a new boat entered your class and ran away with every race. You know you're at the peak of your game and you'll never catch him....unless you buy a new hull, just like it.

Slow him down or let him dominate the class? Like I said earlier, it's all about who the customer is. If the racers are the customers then Shane wins the argument. If the fans are the customers then parity will come into play because the fans want to see close racing.

Again I'll ask, Do you think fans would prefer to watch a run away race or side by side racing with several lead changes?

BTW- best conversation in a long time.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

This is why I'm on the Med boats this year instead of in SS class. The Doug Wrights are still a little out of my $$ range(and on waiting list) and they have won all the SBI/APBA races and 1/2 OSS races. The only competitive AMT is the Berry Cuda boat and it is a one-off epoxy boat. The boats that were/are for sale, are-get-what-you-pay-for deals. Good boats at a great price, but your best hope is to finish in the top 3 if a couple of boats break. I can't get/maintain sponsorships while bringing up the rear. :(

The solution has been to take off a year, hope to drive for someone else, while getting in line for a Doug Wright so I can have a CHANCE of being competitive.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

I believe Cash is saying, if he could buy an older hull and be competitive because of parity, there would be another SS team on the course this year, but since he doesn't have a shot at winning because he can't afford the "good stuff", he'll sit it out until he can.

Something like that. I'll take that as a yes vote for parity.

Like I said, winners hate it, everyone else sees it as their salvation.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Correct, RonP.

After reading my own post it does seem to ramble around the point. :rolleyes:

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Seattle is down to 500,000 fans for the Hydros? Man, one year in the early 1980s I was on a 90 foot charter yacht on the log boom and there were 1 million people on the beaches at 9 am, waiting for the races to start at noon. That was one freaking wild party scene I can tell you, with army choppers flying around after the boats.

Sad that Seattle is not turning out for the races the way it used to.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Shane, I agree with you because I can see both sides of this issue. If I was in your shoes, I'd be saying, if you want to beat me, do your homework and step up to the plate.

I was pointing the finger at the new hulls that come out and smoke all the two year old stuff. That hasn't happened in your class yet. In Pickwick, the new Spiderman boat won by like 4 miles. Why they didn't pull back I don't know. But it clearly showed that boat to be way faster than all others.

My question still stands, which is more entertaining to watch, a run away race or close deck to deck racing with lead changes? The answer is obvious.

Just understand, that the races are designed to cater to racers, not fans. That's really my only point here. If that ever changes, parity will be important. Alwiess knew this.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Allright I think I have put enough coherent thoughts together to write another reponse :D

As far as the NASCAR to offshore racing comparison, you guys are right they are two totally diffrent animials, that said do you think a dentist can learn something from a doctor ? I do.
There seems to be alot of diffrent opinions on what style course fans would prefer to see. I think there is room to for all of em in one circuit, NASCAR has road courses, short tracks, and super speedways. Some fans prefer one to the other but we watch em all, atleast I do. Next up, and I know it's beating a dead horse but the boats need to be in the same place at the same time, as in one circuit. Wether that will ever happen again is hard to say, during the split there were alot of things said and done between people that just can't be forgoten. Then there does need to be a parity system that is equally enforced upon everyone, as I stated before there are more refined ways of developing these systems then just adding or remoeving weight based on finish position in a prior race. That is not realy an acurrate system anyway, some boats respond diffrently to others with the added weight. 200 pounds could be a much bigger hinderance to one guy then the next. Perhaps we take very boat model that is in each class right now, agree on a way of leveling them, and then desginate those models as the required boat for that class. I don't know I'm just throwing out possibiltys here. Once you have leveled the field all that is left is driver and setup, those with the talent and who have done their homework will win. That's the way it should be and a parity system shouldn't interfere with that, what it should stop is the guy with the most money running away with everything. The team by team parity syatem also seems to allianate alot of people too, they feel personaly singled out. Maybe another good idea would be to leave the SVL and SCL classes alone and rename them something like " unlimiteds" or something to that effect, and then make the rest of the classes stock classes of some form.
I have some other general thoughts on how to make this a more fan onriented sprort. First make a "show" out fo the weekend, starting with an organized practice session on Friday, Qualifying of some sort on Saturday followed by finals on Sunday. Fans like to see the whole package. Next, follow the lead of Champ and SST classes and go to a LeMans start, they are great deck to deck, rubbing, everyone racing for the commitment bouy. they are a blast to watch and I don't think you would find too many drivers opposed to em either. Another thing I think fans would like to see is a more cummlative points system, It's too much like Golf right now, who is the champion, well it depends on who you ask and what week it is. College Football is coming under increasing pressure to de-muddy the waters with their sytstem right now too. Thw group racing that is currently going on is also a littel tough ont he fans, they can't figure out who's racing who. It has become a neccesity though becuase there just aren't enough boats in alot of classes to make the race fun to watch.
Before any of this can even be considered though, as Ron P. stated in not so many words. The racers, and they are the only ones who can make this decision, need to decide if they want to cater to themselves or if they realy want to take a stab at making it big time. When alot of them get down to it and realize what will be involved in that they may have zero interest in a fan base at all.

By the way this is on of the best threads I have been involved in in a long time and I would like to thank every one for keeping this a conversation not an arguement, it could easily go there. :drink:

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

How can this be a serious discussion with such an inaccurate statement... :D:D:D:D

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

First off some of the points made are very good ones and some are a waist of time to read,in my opinion the sport needs to go back to the actual sport of boat racing and establish a set of rules and classes that fit all racers and that are in black and white and not change from year to year,because that is what has made alot of racers go away and I know because I have been around for 25 years and seen them come and go,also we have got to start to worry more about the racing itself and not what is being cooked in the pits,this has made one of our potential sponsors really question what this sport is all about with questions to me like are you people really interested in racing or are you just wanting to have a huge food cook off,and they have asked questions like why are there boats with one engine racing against boats with 2 engines,we have to as a whole start to take the sport as a serious motor sport,get everyone on the same page and under one organization because there is not enough boats to have more than one organization and start to act like profesionals not like a bunch of I am better than you or we can throw a better party than another group of individuals,people that are going to put any dollars into something, want more than a party they want racing and good exposure for there company,people on the side lines want to see racing not a bunch of boats running around with a half mile before they see the next boat go by,that is about as much fun as watching paint dry.Dont get me wrong I will be the first to want a cold beer and burger when the time is wright but we have to be more serious about our sport than we are or at least as we seem to be.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Congrats to Boatnutz,

Great job on giving and bringing out ideas in what can prove to be a somewhat hostile environment. You seem to bring out educated and thought out opinions opposed to the snipping and smack talk that sometimes occurs. I believe on the most part these guys want to see the betterment of the sport and you have brought points to the table which enable (US) to funnel our thoughts in a positive direction. No insult meant to anyone. Just my .02.
Thanks
Stan

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Most people seem to think that SBI and OSS need to get back together again. I don't feel that way. They both have different ways of putting on a race and the feeling at thier respective race sites couldn't be more opposite.

What is missing from both groups is a minor league where young racers can start out on a budget and aspire to moving onto the big show at some point in thier racing career.

Years ago, APBA had a very stong divisional series and the national tour would run one or two races in each division each summer. OPA is a good example of a minor league. Running only P class boats and all races (6 this year www.oparacing.com) staying within 200 miles of home. Over the last four years, OPA has seen several of it's racers move up and out of OPA. We've also seen plenty of new teams come out each season becuase they know they'll have a local, inexpensive place to race a few times each year, and if they want to race more, they go to an SBI race. This is exactly what OPA was designed for. The one thing that probably holds (or maybe not) OPA back is it's lack of affilation with either SBI or OSS. OPA is actually a third group, but without the goal of growing beyond what it is today. Without OPA, there would be ZERO racing in the Northeast.

One good idea I heard at the APBA meeting in Atlanta but never made it's way into the rule book was the following. "All new drivers must compete in at least two divisional races before being allowed to race in a national race. This would force the boat count at Divisional races to increase.

Offshore needs a stonger foundation. One that allows for some weight to be placed upon it without the whole structure falling apart.

Finally, the idea of boats just showing up at the pits without preregistration has got to stop. I feel bad for Ken Doyle, he put in untold hours and dollars to bring a divisional race to Panama City only to have 8 boats show up. Do you think he would have done the work if he knew that ahead of time? Guys like Ken that are willing to produce a race with nothing to gain are the ones that need the racers support. Without guys like Ken, the races would never be put on the schedule in the first place.

Here, take the soapbox, I'm done with it.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Happy Monday everyone!
I have just enough time to dash off a couple of replies.
GLH- The problem with most posts is that they get personal. I happen to know T2X has brough up some good ideas through the years and I happen to know he has a passion for the sports No, I don't agree with him on everything but I do respect that he's trying to make it better. If you don't agree then I respect you for that too. The point of this thread was to not get into personalities but rather to consider solutions and philosophies that will make the sport better for all no matter whether it returns to the "old way" or moves on to make a good shot at being "big time".
KLAATU- I know where you are coming from and your thoughts are certainly worth considering. There are a lot of ways to skin a cat and alot of different ways to run a race! Good thoughts.
1HYPER1- Right On! You are putting the discussion right where it should be. The decision has to be made to either race for the racers or race for the fans. It might even mean two circuits with two distinct purposes. It would still be great to see even two circuits under one umbrella. The food cookoff statement puts it in perspective and should cause some folks to think about it. Good fun, good food, etc. around the races is great but it's what happens on the course that determines where the sport will go.
POPEYES-Stan, it was great to see your comments. I have a tremendous respect for you and have had through the years so your opinion meant alot. I did get your e-mail through Offshoreonly.com and altho I have great respect for the man you mentioned, I am not him.
RON P- Once again you come through with the hammer to the head of the nail. I think the term "minor league" turns a lot of folks off but I know exactly what you are aiming at. It is solid and as I said to 1HYPER1, maybe two distinct circuits with one aiming for the so called "big time" and the other serving as a training ground and a circuit where the racing is pure fun.
You are also right that whichever way this thing goes, a strong foundation is needed.
Your comments on those who volunteer to put races on should draw applause from every offshore racer no matter what circuit they run on. These folks go out and often put their own money on the line and then get short changed by the sport when the support is not there. Every driver or boat owner should make every effort possible to make it easy for those volunteering and should strive to help out by showing up.
Hope you all have a good day ... I'm off and running!

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

We have had a good discussion and hopefully some food for thought has been developed. I see that there have been no new postings in a couple of days so I will assume this thread is exhausted.
I hope everyone will continue to think about how the sport can be improved. It takes putting ego's and agendas aside and looking at the sport as a whole. Once it can be determined if most want it to grow into something that draws fans and sponsors or they want to leave it where it is or return it to where it was, then the refinements can start being examined.
If the determination is that the sport should grow into television, sponsosrships, etc. then I think someone has to be put in command who is paid to do the job but doesn't profit from sponsor deals or anything else. He or she has to be able to look out for the best of the sport. I have long maintained that part of the problem is boat racing run by boat racers. The racer tends to concentrate on the issues involving the racers and doesn't expand outside of that. It also tends to get personal which leads to hurt feelings and people not participating. Certainly the racers should have major input but the "commissioner" should listen and moderate ... not slam down a fist unless absolutely necessary for the good of the sport.
At the beginning of the thread it was pointed out that I had been a member of Offshoreonly.com for a year and never posted. I read alot and continue to do so. If I see something of interest regarding the sport I will jump on or start a new thread. If this thread is over then thanks to everyone who had constructive thoughts and contributed. I also appreciate those who kept it on point and made it the best thread many had seen in a long time.
If this thread gets picked up again then I will be back on it but otherwise ... thanks to all and keep those boats bottom side down!