Why it's not "big" time
 

I have heard time and time again about Offshore Racing being the next "NASCAR" and other such things. It has been debated in this forum numerous times. The most recent was a reasonable discussion prompted by TX2 (who incidentally, knows what he's talking about) In 40 some odd years that I have been associated with boat racing of all types, I have never seen the sport approach its goals and to me the reasons are simple enough.
I worked for NASCAR for several seasons before becoming involved with the boats. Under Bill France Sr. I learned that his secret was "show first, race second". In other words, his concern was that the spectators got a good show and then he worried about the racing. Thus the stories about him throwing yellow flags for no apparent reason. Fact was, he threw them to tighten the field and make a show of it for the spectators. It took about two or three seasons and about six multi-millionaires in the sport before they all started seeing "rabbits on the track" and other such things. In other words they got it. Make it a show.
Most argue about the organizations that sanction the races. I don't think it's the organizations as much as it is the philosophy of the entire sport. I have spoken many times at drivers meetings and such and have gotten all sorts of nods when I talk about putting on the show yet the minute the boats are in the water there's first place half a lap or more in front of second. What kind of television do you think that makes for the average fan at home not to mention the fan watching it live?
I do think that the cutting down of classes is a step in the right direction. I could see something like venues that run multiple classes (so we keep new people coming into the sport) and a circuit that runs premium classes (no it doesn't have to be separate sanctioning bodies or it could be). I remember the hey-days of inboard hydro's when 16 classes would be run and then on top of that you ran two heats to determine the wins. Try to explain that to a fan whose seeing it for the first time.
When a sanctioning body looked at just televising the big classes all sorts of complaints were heard. In fact, the so-called premium classes are the ones that attract the viewers, but everyone was more concerned whether their class or their boat was shown. So the question has to be asked ... is it racing for the racers or racing for the fans?
So far the sport in my 40 plus years has been racing for the racers. The racers want the backing from the fans and enjoy the newspaper articles and such, but when it comes down to the start line it seems to become an individual thing and harkens back to the "my boats faster than your boat" and that's all that matters.
Please don't think I am condemning boat racing in any shape or form. I wouldn't have given so much if I didn't think it was a great sport and more importantly on a personal note, that it had some pretty great folks involved. Some of my best and longest friendships have been from the boat racing world.
APBA was making some big strides when courses were pulled down and put in front of the fans and the yellow flag was introduced. Although things ended badly there was definitely some progress made toward putting on a show that the fans could appreciate and understand.
I guess the summation of this whole thing is to say that the philosophy of the sport has got to change if it is to leave the rut it has been in. It is a great sport with a tremendous potential but it lacks in fan appeal and therefore lacks in sponsorship, television, etc.
My hope in posting this is to try and redirect the debates from sniping at each organization and look to solutions and ways to make this sport not only better but successful. I happen to think that whichever organization you choose to run with, you've got to make it fan friendly and racers on the water will have to do that because no organization can control once the boats leave the dock.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Welcome. Nice first post. Would you mind stating who you are?

What's the difference between NASCAR and offshore??? In Offshore, the owners drive their own boats.

I agree, Offshore is about the racers enjoying a weekend in a nice location. And if some people show up to watch, all the better. From what I see a show for the spectators isn't the primary concern.

I agree, that yellow flags made the racing more interesting, just as a restart in NASCAR is exciting to watch. Face it, the best part of a race is the first lap. Yellow flags offered a second start and made for interesting racing.

Will Offshore ever find an audience? Maybe if they stop stepping on their own toes.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

NO...

Everybody owns a car so they can relate at some level to car racing. Few own boats and have never been on one, they don't care about the sport. Heck...I've owned boats for 35 years and I could care less about the sport!! They even have lawnmower racing on tv more than boat racing!!! I guess everyone owns one of those too LOL!!!!

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Ohio State fan, figures. :D

But I guess I agree to some extent (which is hard for this Michigan Alum to do!). I know a LOT more people who don't own boats and care very little for boat racing... but I know exactly where they are every Sunday afternoon from Feb. to Nov.... in front of the TV watching NASCAR or in their VERY expensive seats at the track.

Part of the problem is that not every venue is as fan freindly as the next... where as all NASCAR tracks are for the most part, very similar to each other.... seats all around.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Main reason probably is there are far fewer boat owners than car owners. The big money isn't going to step up and sponsor boat races on TV.
Organizational confusion are an issue also. Again big money isn't going to step up and sponsor.

Cannot get 100.000 spectators near enough to the course in seats at $40 -$100 each.

The unlimited hydros race for the gold cup on the Detroit River each year and estimated crowds of 400, 000 plus attend and event is in continual financial jeopardy.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Haven't you heard Offshore boat racing is alive and booming?!?!?
Check out your local Poker Run!

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

The real problem is that there is no infield for rednecks to park their RVs, yella buses and Uhaul campers.

I can't believe you guys missed this. :D

:drink:

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Yup, and no "turn 4" for the ladies to show off the goods either!

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Maybe he is one heck of a lurker? :cool:

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

no one could hold back that long

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

there out there, they just don't float very well..... :D

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

This is a never ending argument. Many people try and compare boat racing the NASCAR and it's realy not a fair comparison. lets not forget that NASCAR only became the "bigshow" due to a HUGE stroke of luck. In 1973 ciggerate advertising was banned on TV, R.J Reynolds, among others, was left with a huge advertising budget, they saw The former Grand National series (pre Winston cup) as a way to get back on TV and work around the laws, it was a winner for everyone for a long time, 30 years. I hav pit crewed on several teams on the "grass roots" level. Mostly Western Formula Lites" but also some NJBA (squirter boats) We has a 10-12 race schedule and anywhere from 8-14 classes at each event. The class I was involved with the most was SST 45. We typicly had 20-30 boats per event, and there were 2 or 3 qualifiers to to decide who ran in the main event and starting order. If we took first, the check was ussually around 500 bucks, doesn't even pay the fuel for the weekend. You know what though, no one cared. Boat racers are a diffrent breed, we do it cuase we love it, not for the money. I think if you talked to most offshore racers, and fans, they would prefer to see the old school Miami to Bimmini and miami to New York races. No they are not fan friendly at all, they could be televised and I think they would make a hell of a "show" , it used to anyway. if you want my honest opinion, there was one man that realy screwed up the program, he cuased the whole mess that brang about 3 diffrent sanctiouning bodies, and he ruined offsahore racing and tried to trun it into inshore racing, his name was Micheal Alweiss. I'm sure this will start some talking(or yelling) but I was just stating my opinion. Bottom line is, I don't think most offshore racers do it for money, if that was the plan they need to seek better financial advice. They do it cuase they love it, and the reason for dwindling turn out in the offshore classes is the exponitionly rising cost of being competive in the sport. Budgets have tripled and quadrupled in the last few years. There isn't anything we can do about it, technology is just moving so fast. It wasn't that long ago that an 1800 HP engine that would run for 50-100 hours was unheard of, now they exist. things have changed and we can't do anything about it.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

I kind of agree with the old style racing. It may not be fan freindly, but the fans on the shore aren't paying anyway, and after the first lap, nobody knows who is racing who. I try to follow racing, and I can't tell.

Maybe they could set up a Miami to Bimini run. They could set up a big pavillion with closed circuit tv where once the boats were out of sight, they could follow it on tv. Then maybe sell the footage to a cable tv system.

With real old fashion offshore racing, there wouldn't be nearly as many boats looking to get their boat fit into a certain class.

Just one of my many mini thoughts.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Of course they do it for the money, Haven't you heard powerboat racing is the fastest way to become a millionare, only problem is that you have to be a multimillionare to get started. :)

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Welcome to the board. Excellent presentation of your thoughts.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

By the way boatnut, it was a good frist post and welcome to the board, you know you can never go back to "lurker" status though. Although I disagree with you on some, well most points, you gave us more then a one line pop shot. I hope we can all continue the discussion without things getting silly.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

It's because people have hidden agendas and you get that feeling when all those events come together,Post count.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

to make it more fair for the rest of the boats, place Fountain in a league of their own.......... :evilb: :evilb: :evilb: :evilb:

I agree with Boatnutz, hell of a first post, I also think the sport needs to take babysteps to get to be Nascar. They need to put on a good show, for the fans, 1st Race 2nd, I like Boatnutz ideas. Tom

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

[QUOTE=cuda]I kind of agree with the old style racing. It may not be fan freindly, but the fans on the shore aren't paying anyway, and after the first lap, nobody knows who is racing who. I try to follow racing, and I can't tell.

I would like to suggest you come to Ft, Myers to the http://www.edisonoiloffshoreraceforrecovery.com/ and watch a OSS race. thier formula has only 5 classes, And very fan friendly. wether by boat or on top of the lani kai, the beach the pier there wont be a bad viewing of this race. I am certain all will enjoy it.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

What league would that be, the class for boats that are 8 feet shorter then the rest of the competition, weighing less, and running special edetion Reggie resealed motors, therefor they have an unfair advantage ? :evilb: :evilb: :evilb: :evilb: :evilb:

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Don't be a Fountain Hater :D :D :D

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

but it's so easy. I actually like those beak boats for some reason though. And if I didn't say it, someone else would have by morning.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Much like 'Foul, I have to agree with the buckeye (and it pains this U of M grad just as much!). Personally, I just can't muster up much interest in boat racing. I enjoy watching the infrequent TV appearances, and we anchored out to watch the races the last time they ran in Lake St. Clair, but it's certainly not something I'm going to go out of my way to paricipate in - and I can't put my finger on any one reason why I feel that way, though the constant pissing, moaning, and general 5 year old temper tantrum antics around the subject certainly doesn't help...

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

As the majority of folks who have commented have put some thought into their postings I will honor them by replying.
RON P - The NASCAR/Offshore comparison was only brought up because I hear and read so many within the sport talking about it in those terms. Obviously there are huge differences. In a perfect world where dreams are fulfillied maybe we could see Offshore approach NASCAR in popularity.
RON P- you did back my case in one way and that's the fact that you are one racer who races for the fun of it. No problem. I respect all the folks who are there for the fun of racing and I understand it. It's just that if the sport is to grow then it has to be for more than the racers themselves. Believe me, I think the racers should enjoy the race sites on and off the water whether it goes to a big time sport or remains where it is. If everyone is happy with where it is right now or as some stated, they'd like to revert to the "old type" of racing then so be it and throw the green flag.
INDY- You areright ... the show is the difference. Everyone owns a car and that is part of the attraction of NASCAR.
WATERFOUL- Not everyone owns a NASCAR type car so although the brands attract the show is bigger than that. How many Toyota's, Honda's Mitsubuihi's, etc. do you see on the NASCAR Circuit? The crowds are still there despite the fact that Toyota is right up there with GM in car sales yet the various sports car circuits don't come close to NASCAR.
INTERCEPTOR-You are right. The organizational confusion contributes greatly to the problems. But I still say,remove the organziations and talk philosophy because (as I said in the first post) once the boats leave the dock the organization doesn't matter ... the drivers are in control. By the way, you talked about 400,000 showing up for the Spirit of Detroit. That's usually a one day figure. 750,000 is the weekend. To revert to a previous arguement about everyone owning cars hardly anyone owns an Unlimited Hydroplane. Their show is great because of the massive rostertails although most fans of that sport will admit that the turbine took something away from the "Thunderboats". The show also diminsihed with the dominance of one boat for so many years. Still, Seattle draws 500,00 and San Diego over 200,000. In all three of those locations, there is a festival around the events which is another key to the race sites. The actual races serve as a highlight to a big party!
HILLYBILLY24 - I agree most of the racers do not do it for the money yet most of the racers still want sponsors and such. And by the way, I am not going to defend Mike Allweis as that's another can of worms. Oh, and don't worry about me "lurking". I have read these posts for years without commenting because of certain situations that I'd rather not get into. Rest assured I have NO agenda and I do love the sport. Like you I hope these discussions can be kept on point and helpful down the line.
CUDA- The old style racing has a certain appeal but the idea of closed circuit television would be so costly it would be virtually impossible.
EXPRESS 39- Thanks!
SPEED2LEAD-See above ... no hidden agenda!
TOMTBONE 1993- I agree on the baby steps but still believe it starts with the philosophy the racers and organizers have.
PETE B- Have been to Ft. Meyers numerous times and agree with you!
One more thing ... Idenity? I didn't identify and won't now because that causes another can to open. Right away it's something of an attack because it's so and so. I am just stating an opinion based on years around the sport. I can tell you about Reb Wickersham missing a turn bouy and ending up having a Greek lunch in Tarpon Springs.. I remember Don Pruitt driving the first ever Molinari hull in the U.S. ... I remember Dr. Magoon's record runs and his racing. The names of Magluta, Kramer and Falcone are more than familiar. I was around when Gene Whipp was racing inboard hydro's. How about the tradgeties in Key West like the Jesse James and Tom Gentry. I can talk to you about the Unlimiteds as well. All I am saying is I have been around boat racing in all forms for over 40 years. My comments are not made without thought!

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Ok, since BoatNutz has "honored" us with a second post... I will also "honor" this thread with a very serious question.

Who stands to gain what, and do we really want to be like Nascar?

Do we want to be so overexposed and overblown that the people who have enjoyed "the sport" can't get near it anymore?

Without TV it will never be Nascar.
Nascar is about sponsorships. Sponsorships are about money.
Money spent for exposure.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Fund, you bring up a great point. Be careful of what you wish for.

Ft Lauderdale was no picnic. It was so busy it took an hour to get from the pits to the beach to watch the race. As opposes to most other races that are typically so intimate you can go anywhere in the race village without obstruction. Try to do that at a NASCAR event.

Fans bring revenue and sponsors. Sponsors bring money and help offset the cost of racing. If racers could get sponsorship that would allow them to break even, there would be more people racing. The one real problem remains. There's very few locations that could serve as a stadium for offshore races with seats, vendors and the ability to charge at the gate.

Forgetting all the other issues, Allwiess had a real understanding of how to make racing marketable. He was terrific in the first year or two and his actions moved the sport forward. He gave the racers what they wanted. Strict enforcement of the rules, a chance to win on any given day and a vision for the future. I believe that vision of the future is still alive in some racers and time will tell if they can produce positive results.

Let's start with enforcing parity between race boats. Side by side racing is great to watch. I know Reggie would prefer to lap the field in every race but that's not fun to watch nor is it fun to race against.

I use the term FUN often because for the racers spending their weekends away from home, spending way more than they should on hulls, engines and travel, they better be enjoying themselves, or they won't last in this sport. Once money comes into the sport, then the fun factor can go way down as you'd see more owners stepping out of the boat and putting paid drivers in the boats, just like NASCAR.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Thanks Ron.

That's exactly what I was getting at.
You were able to develop my point much better since you are part of the racing culture.

BTW... have a fast safe season!

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Cudos to both Ron P and Fund. Both of those replies are on point.
FUND- you are right about the accessibility of any sport when it gets big and that goes to the root of the question to all racers. Do they want it "big"? As I said earlier, if it's let's go racing and have some fun and if anyone shows up to watch that's great, then so be it.
Your question about who benefits is also a strong point. At present you have a combination of two circuits where the promoter is paid in some form and you have a solo circuit that says it is non-profit. I suppose the ideal would be an organization that channels the money back into the sport to the benefit of the racers ... higher purses, etc. It's not an easy question and certainly is worth debate! By the way, as you know, there are expenses in an organization non-profit or otherwise.
RON P- First of all it was good to hear that Mike A. could be recognised for some of the good he did and I agree wholeheartily. I didn't agree on everything but to not acknowledge the good he did accomplish and tried to accomplish would be wrong.
You are also right on with the racers spending time away from home on the weekend and most times their families are along. My kids grew up in the pits for several catagories of racing and it is always one of the most attractive things about boat racing for the participants. Families and enjoyment by the racers should definitely be considered in any arrangement big or otherwise.
And by the way, if anyone was offended by my "honoring"" those who posted with a reply pleae forgive me. I was refering to my want to give direct replies and not just to the last comments. I wanted each to know I took time to read the posts. I have nothing but respect for those who participate in the sport.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Hey Boatnutz.

I was kidding you with the "honor" thing. No offense. :drink:
You make some very well informed points for a three-poster.

Sounds to me like you are part of the racing scene.
Maybe you should post more.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

I'll repeat my my previous comment regarding organization. Look at the state of open wheel racing since the CART-IRL split. Neither sells out. The racers, fans and sponsors don't know who will be running the show and what the rules will be.

To me offshore boat racing has a fit similar to SCCA or the current LeMans racing going on. Big equipment and little TV and small fan base at events.

Regarding stadium boat racing sites. The Detroit River off Belle Isle is perfect and they did run offshores there in the early 80's. But again like hydros probably a huge crowd but no gate receipts.

ed

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

FUND RAZOR-No offense taken. I'm not as "in the scene" as much as previous years which is why I felt I was better positioned to bring up the topic. I have to say I am enjoying the input and am happy others such as yourself, are participating.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Interceptor- you are right about Detroit of Belle Isle. I had to laugh when you brought up Offshore racing on that track as I remember press day before one of the OS events and Gene Whip flipped a little V bottom right dead center in front of the downtown lunch crowd.
Actually, I think Milwaukee has a good course. It's a little tight on the one end but the fans sure get a kick out of watching everyone come through there. Both courses prove (as do some others) that you can have spectators involved. However, outside of the old Miami Marine Stadium, it's almost impossible at most sites to charge admission so the events become dependent on sponsors. That again brings up the catch 22 of the sponsors wanting to expose their products to the maximum amount of fans, etc.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

It is what it is, until it changes.

Until then, hopefully you enjoy the show.

I really think this sport needs someone on the inside that worked for one of the other forms of motor sport that have been brought to a new level. Look at Monster trucks, they are only about 10 years old and look at the crowds they draw and the TV they get. How come? Good marketing? The drivers know how to talk when they are interviewed and they know how to give the audience what they want. They play to the audience. Offshore doesn't.

We need more in the way of parity. I know for some that's a bad word. For others, it's their salvation.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Parity, theres a touchy subject. As much as I hate the basic concepts of it, it does make for more exciting and fan friendly racing. There are ways to refine it and enforce it fairly though. Most people don't realize that NASCAR has a parity system, they know the rules exist but don't view it as parity wich it is. They take the cars to the wind tunnel, and based on aero information, they restrict ride height and spoiler height regulations based on this info, the cars are equal aroedynamically speaking. NASCAR is a driver/setup race, off shore racing is a Driver/setup/boat race. NASCAR has managed to take the original car desginer out of the equation, and made it a driver/crew race, wich makes for much better racing, have you ever noticed that in NASCAR people mention the drivers name when people ask who's fan they are, but in boat racing people ask what boat builder they are a fan of ? Theres something to chew on for a while. In the Unlimited Hydroplane world, the team by team fuel parity system is the only thing they can do becuase the boats are wild one of customs, as are the engines, they can't set a standard restriction on anything else so fuel is where they went, and again I don't know that I am a fan of it but I think that parity is ONE of the reasons that unlimiteds are pretty popular, it makes the race fun to watch, even with one team dominating for the last century. The one thing I realy didn't agree with them on was when they wanted to detune the piston boat, come on if the turbine guys can't keep up with the piston boys, they are to slow not the other way around. If you wanted to enforce a parity system, you would have to designate a specific boat from each builder that was participting to be used in each class, say in P5 you wanted to run a Fountian, you would have to run a 27 fever. Then you would do some testing with the boats at the beggining of every season with the same driver and throttleman in each in the same water ont he same day, and level them all based on this info, wether it be weight or power restrictions is a whole nother topic to discuss. The other thing you would have to do is forget about Fountian putting any backing into your series :D Like I said, I'm not huge fan a parity, But it is an option that I think needs to be explored in it's refined forms. It doesn't work very well though when it is team by team as opposed to Boat model bu boat model, people don't get quite as singled out that way and I think they may be more willing to except it.
On the Micheal A. topic, I know the man did some good for the sport, it was his last year or so that was rough, It is a shame that that is all he will be remembered for and I myself admit that I often forget about the good he did, I still blame him single handedly for the division of racers into 3 series though and that is hard to forget!!!

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

[QUOTE=Pete B]I've been to an OSS race, in St Pete last year.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Face it, watching boats race in rough water is exciting. Watching a close race in rough water is over the top exciting.

Calm water racing is not exciting and calm water racing where there is no passing boring.

As a fan, I want to see boats flying, position changes and the start line up. Parity is the answer if a fan base is wanted. Parity will also cause more bumping and rubbing. Which is great for fans, bad for racers. I guess it all comes down to who is the customer, the racer or the fan. Right now its the racers.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

I don't think fans are that concerned with parity. Take the NFL for example. They say the fans watch more when there are a few dominate teams for years. Fans are either there to root them on, or to boo them.

Even in Nascar, when Dale Sr was racing, there were tons of fans there just to watch him, and the rest were there just to boo him. Jeff Gordon was in the same boat. Very few care about the bottom 35 racers, they want to see the clash of the titans.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Fund- No offense taken. Just wanted to be clear that I wasn't trying to be elitist. Anyway, the discussion contiues on a positive track with earnest concerns and good thinking prevailing.
CUDA- Parity IS in the NFL probably more than anyother sport. Dynasties can attract for the reasons you state but there is also that thing about any team standing a shot at winning. The NFL has done a good job making the field look equal at the beginning of the season. It takes awhile for those "dynasties" to prove themselves and by that point the season is more than half over. Then it's a matter ... can anyone knock them off. Witness the New England Patriots going into this year.
SHANE B.- I'm kind of sorry I brought up the NASCAR/Offshore thing. I was only stating it originally because I hear it and read it so much. They are indeed apples and oranges for many reasons, some of which you stated. I was trying to say that a big difference is the show. Have you noticed even when there is a dominant driver the television still moves further back in the pack? That didn't happen several years ago. Now they talk about battles all over the field.
In essence you got at the heart of what I am talking about. You put on the show and then you worry about the race. Let's say you got 30 laps on a course. Battle for 25 or so and then drag race to the finish. As the sport grows in appeal through the show, the racing comes more and more into the forefront. It's all a matter of somehow putting action on the water. That can be done with parity and certainly we have all seen races in certain classes lately that have been great races. Sometimes the course forces it, and sometimes it's parity. Right now television coverage is basically one or two boats at a time on the screen.
CUDA-By the way, I totally agreee with you on the consistency thing. Like you, I have seen rules incidents where there has been no hint of consistency. It's got to be the same across the board and it has to be enforced equally. I know some racers who have pulled away because they don't feel they were treated equally.I can't speak to the validity of the claim but when you get a bunch of folks saying the samething, it's worth considering.

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

Hey... stop telling me that you aren't offended or I'm gonna get paranoid. :D

Re: Why it's not "big" time
 

fUND- Definitely don't want you paranoid!
HILLYBILL 24- WOW! You said a mouthful and it was loaded with some great points to ponder.
I guess we still have to wait and see about the Unlimiteds and whether they will survive without Miss. Budweiser. I think the sad thing there is that I understand Bud has pulled out their on-site money which was a life line for several of the stops. I think they are down to six races this year. It was just a couple of years ago that Tommy D'Eath pulled the Spirit of Detroit together at the last minute. Who would have thought that particular race would have a problem.
You are also right about the fuel being the only thing they could control It wasn't that long ago they couldn't even dyno a turbine because it was being used as a marine engine. It's still a question as to how the circuit will go with Bernie Little and Gary Garbrech both gone from the scene.
On Mike A. you are right-on in my humble opinion. He had it going the right way when the train went off the track for some reason.
I will say one thing about parity ... it's tough on the inspectors. To my knowledge, their expenses are taken care of but they aren't making any money. Just like Little League umps ... they are basically volunteers and yet they get a raft of ... well you know what I mean. It is sort of a no-win situation. That's pretty true for most of the officials.