Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

Being fairly new to the boat stuff, I am curious as to why the Volvo Penta 496 is looked so down upon. Also, is the GM Vortec 496 w/525 HP looked down upon as well. If you were to build a new boat, would you consider VP or GM Vortec power? Why/Why not?

Everyone here talks about how expensive the Mercruiser stuff is, and I agree. Is the VP or Vortec a less expensive alternative?

I found online a place selling the Vortec 525 for $14,995.00. I'm assuming that is WAY below a Mercury Racing 525.

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

My Vortechs were real strong!!!

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

Looked down upon by who?
People who only read race mags?

Looked down on by Mercury marketing, for sure.

I would love Volvo penta power. So would many others who have exposure to boats that goes beyond racing marketing.

In fact, if I had some extra ching I would have already put Volvos in my boat.

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

I have to agree. Mercruiser has a stranglehold on the high performance market. It's just too hard(and costly) for someone to jump in and take some market share.

The motors are very similar, but I would take a Volvo drive over a Bravo any day!

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

I put Volvo's 600DPX's (no longer available) in my boat instead of Mercury's 575Sci's (also no longer available), saved myself $37,000, and never looked back. Vote with your wallet. There's a reason why Volvo Penta is #1 among independent (ie, non-Brunswick) boat builders.

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

It just seems that the few things I have read on here about the VP have been negative. I can say that I have read almost nothing on the Vortec engines.

How are the VP drives with regards to power handling? Do they seem to be as fragile as the Bravo?

Based on Fund's qoute, I guess one could liken it to the AMD/Intel procesor situation. It is proven that the AMD stuff is euqal in every way and better in many ways to the Pentium, yet you still find tons of people who say AMD sucks.

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

I haven't read too much negative about Volvo on OSO.
The people around here know the real deal. Not just the hype.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...8&page=1&pp=20

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

Great AMD/Intel analogy! That hits it on the head.

The link that fund posted has some good info on it.

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

There is nothing wrong with a volvo penta But for service and resale mercury is the best choice

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

What site did you find the pricing on the vortech engines???

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

Heck, a Volvo is built on a GM block. A Vortech is built on the same block. AND, the Merc 496 is also built on the same block. I'm sure the block is not the only common part these three motors share.

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

Does the vortec use a Merc drive?

(forgive me)

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

I think that is a big part of it. At least the re-sale part. Volvo drives rarely need the service part! :D

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

The Vortec is on: http://www.marinepowerservice.com/

They also carry Mercruiser & Volvo. I have no idea what drive GM suggests to use with their Vortec. I guess if you use their motor, maybe you go complete custom. Can you save enough buying the Vortec to justify a Konrad? How much is one of those anyway. I can't find any website showing a price.

Yeah, they are all built on the same block, but we all know it's what's inside that counts!

If one were to do a complete custom setup, what all is needed? (sorry for the newbie question) What I know is Engine - Transmission - Drive. Is anything else necessary in there? What transmission to use in a high horsepower (600-800) setup?

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

The Merc and Volvo are the exact same motor with different intake, exhaust, ignition and accesories.

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

I like my Volvo engine coupled to a bravo
certainly looks like a HP500
http://www.offshoreonly.com/gallery/...newmotor1b.jpg

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

My boat is actually about 1/4 mile down the road from marine power service in NJ. It's nice to have a warehouse full of parts when you have the boat apart. Great bunch of guys to deal with.

The Rendl boats in the one design series used volvo power. Chris Rendl could probably give you a report on the Volvo ups and downs.

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

I used to have a Volvo drive (280) on an old SeaBird. Never had a problem with it. However, a Volvo drive on a performance boat would probably look odd. They have the technology and could probably use most of the same parts. I can't imagine that it would be that much of an investment to get into the performance market. I personally think that Volvo needs to come up with a more sporty drive. I am a Merc guy but I think that Mercury definitely needs some competition because the prices are getting out of hand.

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

They already did. 500 and 600 hp engines with DPX drives that had built in external steering.

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

And I would assume it was a HUGE inventment!

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

A friend of mine had the same boat I do(Unlimited 191) for 7 years with a VP duoprop drive. I bet his boat had over 500 hours on it when he sold it and he wasn't nice to it at all. He liked to drive it hard and he liked to air it out between the Lake Michigan rollers. He never had one single problem with that drive.

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

Jayhawk, use a Huber Marine transmission. I bought used transmissions and sent them to Tom Huber. Very reasonable $, good delivery, two seasons behind 735 HP with no problems. With a Bravo or VP drive you do not need a transmission. With Konrad or MC SSM drives you do need a transmission. Joe Murray

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

Sportier than this? (Check out the "sleek" Bravos in the background.)

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

Or these? (Never mind the diesel engines for now...)

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

Jayhawk261

I could not find anything about a Vortec 525HP 496 at the Marine Power site you had a link for. From what I know, Vortec-Gm Powertrain advertised in 2004 but could not deliver or produce the 525HP 496. The only ones I know about are the HP3's that Innovation built for APBA race teams. I think they were for lease only and didn't think they could be bought for 14K. I think the only real 525HP 496's available now are 496's with our Raylar HO525 kits. Just some questions?Volvo does use the same 496 as Merc. and we have several running our HO525 kits, with good results as long as the exhaust systems are upgraded.

Ray @ Raylar
www.raylarengine.com

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

Anybody know how much a DPX setup would cost? What about a regular DP? Might be repowering a Donzi 22 Classic and that looks like it might be a good choice....

Woodsy

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

Viper 31 beat me to it! Take a look at that link. Unless something is amiss or their website isn't up to date, it looks like they have them for sale. I haven't called them to verify or anything.

Anybody know what the average price for a Mercury Racing 525EFI is?

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

Who cares how they look. In the top picture the entire lower is under water, how fast is that boat going to go?? For a cruiser it would be ok but I doubt you're going to get the setup going over 70 mph.

Also, that drive (top pic) is designed to break away, had a few good articles about it in Power & Motoryacht including a report when it did come in contact with the bottom. Not pretty.

My concern is prop selection with non-merc drives or are props available with 4 or 5 blades for Volvos?

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

Foutain built some boats(38F/47L that I saw) with Volvo DPX's and similar power to C-SPRAY's, and I can assure you that they went cosiderably faster that 70 mph.

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

frequentflyer cares how they look! :D

You can use all the Merc props with the flo-torq hub kit and several others make props for Volvos.

I agree the biggest drawback is the lack of performance parts. But I can tell you that I am now looking at upgrading to a bigger boat and my biggest fear is going back to merc drives. My Volvo has been flawless. Oh, and they shift like butter. :D

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

I know a several people (7-8) that have Volvo's and have never had a single failure! The Volvo also does not, to my knowledge have a coupler like a Merc does. That is good and bad as we Merc owners know a coupler can save your day or ruin it. The other downside to a Volvo drive is performance parts. I have not spoken to anyone in the propeller labbing business that knows how to lab the duo-prop volvo.
Someone also asked if the engines were the same, Volvo vs. Merc. The answer is yes. They share same basic long block configurations but the electronic package is different.

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

This drive is an IPS not a DPX. I seriously doubt you will find an IPS on any Fountain. If he has used this drive and was able to get more than 70 mph please show me. It may look pretty but there is nothing perfomance about this drive.

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

I understand they're not intended for HP applications, they're an alternative to a v-drive setup.

As far as the volvo drive.... I've seen a lot of them and none were ever broken. In fact, when I worked at the local marina for 5 years, I never saw one broken volvo drive. Same goes for the OMC cobra drive,, never saw one break.

The earlier volvo drives ( you know, before the patent ran out and Mercury stole the idea :eek: ) ran with 30 wt motor oil rather than gear oil. Every once in a while we would disassemble the uppers and lightly sand the cones on the gears and clutch because they would become glazed. Then they were good for another couple hundred hours. If you mistakenly ran gear oil the drive would have shifting problems.

Besides, look at the new bravo design,,, looks more like a Volvo to me... :evilb:

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

Nor is it marketed or intened to be a performance drive. As Panther stated they are an alternative to a V-drive. Who said that was a performance drive? :confused:

Chris runs them on his Batboats and look at the abuse those boats take! That's gotta say something! And I think some of his boats may be faster than 70! :D

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

I posted the IPS as a styling statement - sorry for the confusion there. The pros and cons of that system are fodder for a whole 'nother thread. Suffice it to say that the plant that makes them is working three shifts a day right now to keep up with demand. NOT for go-fasts, though.

My Formula (38' / 12,000 lbs) has run just shy of 79 mph with the DPX's, my 28' Batboat with a 600DPX runs 93 mph+, and the Rain-X Express Batboat ran 108 mph in race conditions (not a kilo run) in 1996 with 720 hp and a DPX (and promptly got booted out of A-class).

You WILL lose a few mph with a DPX at speeds over 75 mph, but it will give you much better cruise efficiency. That's one of the reasons I like them. It's a shame they don't make it any more.

The drive I posted with the diesel (the DP-R) is not yet available with gasoline engines, but it currently handles 700+ ft-lbs, includes integral hydraulic steering, and does not require a transmission.

I took a set of DPX props to the DeWalds in PA (you tunnel boat racers will know), and asked them to look at them. They were very impressed, just did a (very small) amount of balancing, and gave them back to me, recommending that I leave them alone. (Why doesn't Mercury sell props like that?)

You don't need 4- or 5-bladed props when you already have 6 blades. :D

I have a complete older-style (DPX-R) setup with 530hp/502, transom assembly, and a spare drive if anyone is interested. See the pictures in the "Miscellaneous" section of my site (below). If anyone is interested, I can provide first-hand accounts of how that package ran when I had it in my BatBoat.

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

Sorry, didn't know I typed cruiseronly.com or brokenriverboat.com for Panther :eek: Sorry bro I had to hit you with that one :D

I guess my real beef is too many people just comment on how pretty something is and don't even bother to think about the application or if all that bling actually works.

Are V drives not performance? I have seen both.

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

Well, it was frequentflyer that stated he wanted something "sportier" because a Volvo on a performance boat would look "odd". I was gonna rip on him a little but I decided not too. :D

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

There is no doubt that Volvo makes some really nice stuff, I took my first ride in a DPX powered boat back in the mid-90s. Very cool indeed, the boats handling was incredible. However, from a numbers perspective I would like to see more DPXs on performance boats before we make a comparison with the Bravos. I have been running comletely stock Bravos behind my 41 Velocity for almost 10 years. The only failure I have seen is 1 tooth taken off a gear. This is behind 600 hp motors and I tend to run very hard. Hearing the stories I consider myself very lucky :D

Re: Why Not Volvo Penta or Vortec?
 

The Innovation/Volvo 500/525/600DPX program was scrapped when the installations got out of Volvo's control. Builders were looking for every last tenth of an mph (for bragging rights), and mounted the drives so high they became surface-piercing. This set up all sorts of nasty vibrations in the lower unit, because both props are driving off of a common pinion. The resulting failures fed the rumor mill, and the plug was pulled. I don't know how many 600DPX packages made it into the field, but from what I heard, failures were/are extremely rare.

Since I run my boat at 100% throttle about .05% of the time, absolute maximum speed is not that big a deal to me. If it was, It wouldn't be carrying a generator, A/C water heater, etc. Cruising efficiency and reliability ARE important, and I'm ecstatic with what I got and the big, big bucks I saved.