Question regarding offshore boats
 

I am a newbie to this forum but have had boats for years. Currently have a Bayliner 21' V8 that has a top speed of 55mph. I am thinking of going into the offshore category. While the top speed suits me just fine, the quality of ride I am receiving is getting real old. I am thinking that since all I have is a glorified "ski" boat, the deadrise and hull design are not really suited for quick speeds in the Southern California Pacific Ocean. I am currently looking at 2 kinds of boats, a 22' Scarab and 21-25' Baja. Questions: Will looking at these boats with a sharper V help the quality of ride at quick speeds, be more safe for my children at those speeds, and help with the "kidney pounding" I take when I get the boat out of the water, or am I barking up the wrong tree and no matter what I buy, at 50mph it is going to hurt. Another question, opinions on the above 2 boat models would be great, as well as other manufacturers/models suggestions. I am probably going to buy used, so any "reject" models of any year would be great to be aware of. Thank you in advance.

Chris

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

I WOULDN'T GET RID OF THE BAYLINER ESPECIALLY WITH A V8 THAT'S THE BEST OFFSHORE BOAT AROUND :evilb: LOOK INTO THE 28 PANTERA 28 APACHE 28 CIGARETTE ALL DEPENDS WHAT YA WANT TO SPEND THE SKY IS THE LIMIT BUT KEEP THE BAYLINER THERE'RE GREATTTT :evilb:

JR

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

From your choices, you would definately want to pick up a 25' Baja. I would recommend a 26' Sonic over the 25' Baja though. (They are the same hull size, as the Sonic has a molded in swim platform counted as length.) The Sonic will run a bit better in the rougher ocean. I doubt there are any in your area, but a 25' Active Thunder would trump both of them.

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

Thanks for the response. Let me give you more detail. I want to spend between 20 and 30 k for a 1990-2003 22-25'boat. I want to go with a 6.2 (377) engine as a minimum, but probably will have to settle on a 350 MAG type because of the price. My big concern is making this change from the Bayliner, and aside from getting up to 60-65mph, there will not be much difference in quality of ride, plus having to deal with a lot less space. The pounding is getting to everyone in my family. I am also unhappy with the lack of "solid" feel of the boat. Before everyon pounds Bayliner, I know it is not the best quality, I just have this feeling if I was in a 20' Chapperal, I would have the same lack of "solid" feel. That is what pushed me to look at offshore boats, thinking there build quality will give me that sports car ride feel I want. I know size matters for what I want, so 28 or 32' would be a great ride, but I am limited to storage space of about 25' inlcluding trailer. I do not want the "through hull" sound, just the power. The little research I did found that Baja and Scarab are big players in this size space. But I am also aware of smaller players like Dominator, Cheetah, Advantage, but they seem more expensive. If you had to choose a boat based not on speed but just quality of chop ride for Socal Pacific Ocean, which mfr would you look at, taking into consideration ample supply of used boats to find it!

Again thanks for all the responses.

Chris

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

24 Pantera :evilb: :evilb: :evilb: :evilb:

JR

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

Nice choice. :cool:

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

My 18 footer is 23 feet overall with the outdrive and the trailer tongue. Your 21 footer is probably at 25 feet. You need to re-examine your true storage space size, then move forward. All said and done, I'd go '98 (or newer) Baja Outlaw...although you should look at the entire line of Baja's that may be more suited to family boating (242 Islander I think?).

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

chrisf,
I have a 24 Superboat that would meet your size and price range. But with that said this thing is a running SOB that goes 80mph and if you push it to those speeds you might need to lash the kids in so they do not blow out. :D

In the classifieds.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/esvon/page-6779.html

Cordell

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

I'll tell you this, in a 21 footer the ride will be "better" with a real deep-V, but it'll still be rough. If you want to smooth the ride you need look larger and heavier.
I have a 21' Formula F206 with a 350MAG. We boat on the area lakes in Florida. Some days the wind will really whip the lake into 3'+ white-caps and the waves are close together. Even the deep-V rides like a truck in these conditions. It will pound the hell out of us. I've tried various speeds in these conditions and while faster is better, the boat is on the outer edge of control. Not a comfortable place to be.

Good luck in your search.

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

Everyone goes through this transition stage and the normal story, though not everyone, goes up a few feet only to find out it's still not what they are looking for.

It comes down to the wallet and the comfort level of towing, storing and handling a larger boat.

Best advice.... Get out and personally feel the ride quality of various length boats, different size engines and so on. Visit dealers, go to the boat shows, go to the in water demo days and get as much ride time as you can on various boats so you can make an educated purchase of your next boat. Get into bigger boats that you probably aren't interested in, just for learning experience if anything. Boats aren't cheap and they aren't easy to turn around when your no longer happy with them.

My story is the same as yours as is many other people here, had many smaller boats, went to a 22, 26 and now a 31 which is finally a boat that gives me the ride comfort and room to satisfy our needs. The 22 and 26 footers didn't last long, we really out grew them quickly. Finally, we opted to go larger but older to keep the price down, yet get us into what really worked for the water conditions.

I had a 22 scarab, awesome boat, quick, not very much room, will give you a better ride than your current boat, but it is definitely not a boat for heading out an inlet unless it's a really nice perfect day. If your intentions are to head out an inlet to the ocean, get something with a nice solid hull in front of you.

Again, can't stress enough the importance of getting some seat time on various models and lengths of boats. I think it will help you zero in on what is going to work for what you ultimately want to do.

Hope you the best and Good luck in your search!!!!

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

Where in So Cal are you located? You just missed a run last weekend. Keep an eye out here for when we do ocean runs and I'm sure you can catch a ride with someone with a bigger boat to see what it's like. Be careful though, it won't be long before you're shopping for a Top Gun! :eek: :D

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

The 24 Pantera is agreat rough water boat, I know, I own one.
But if you are boating with the whole Family constantly and you need comfort, speed, etc. I personally would be looking for a clean older Formula
24 LS or SS

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

25' of storage, including trailer? Does that include the tongue too? If so you are looking at a much smaller boat.

+1 on the Formula recommedation, however it may not fit your storage requirements.

Construction and hull design definitely play ALOT into the ride, but so does length. I'd go for some rides in 24' boats before buying to see if it is going to provide the ride quality you seek. I know my old 24' that handled well still required a kidney belt compared to my Formula 31'.

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

In regards to your storage problem, my 21' Formula with trailer and drive raised is around 28'-30' in length. There are trailers out there that have a toungue that folds. You may want to look into one.

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

I went from 18 to 20 to 23 to 29 and as they say, there is no replacement for displacement, go as big as you can afford, a straight 24 degree deadrise with no pads or steps is going to be your best riding boat, the more things you add to go faster will usually diminish the ride a bit. you could probably find a late 90's 25 oultlaw w/ 454 mpi or 502 for what you want to spend.

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

To everyone, thank you for the responses. I agree with taking it slow completely. With my first boat, bought sight unseen, just wanted to get to the ocean to play. This purchase, I am going to take my time on (dealer, test rides, boat shows, ect. ) . I think the reality of what everyone on this forum is saying is to upgrade to a 24 footer, better ride: YES good ride: NOT REALLY. A bigger boat would solve the problem. BTW, with my kids I will only go about 35-40mph. Above 40mph and they start getting nervous. The 25' limit of storage is rough guess; I am sure I can fudge more footage if necessary. Question: If you had a choice to go with a late 90's Baja 24, or a Late 80's eraly 90's Pantera, Sonic, Cheetah 24 with a repower, what would you do? Keep in mind my motorhead capabilities are limited.

Chris

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

I would take a look at Sunsation. They have a wide variety of boats and they don't look cheap or outdated like some others. They are also very affordable.

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

Length, deadrise (23 - 24 degrees) is what keeps you from pounding. Don't get me wrong, you have to know how to drive the thing. I to started with a Bayliner many many years ago. I had young kids and it was cheap. Looked long in the showroom and the salesman used to work at a used car lot. :rolleyes: The thing sucked and so did I as a driver.

Remember this, everytime you sell one of these things and buy another you take it in the wallet. Buy at least a 25 foot boat. My first intelligent choice was a left over 25 Baja Outlaw. The thing crushed most everything in all but the roughest days and I could get my family around without them pounding and me worrying to death. There are other boats that I suppose would work. A late 90's Baja 25 outlaw is close to your price range. Pretty boat too.

I boat in the Great South Bay and the Atlantic ocean on Long Island. Boat builders here know about short chop and frequently rough conditions. Mfg's like Activator, Super Boat, Progression and Hustler make their living making tough boats. Many boat builders build boats for lakes and rivers where things stay calmer. (I know the Great Lakes are rough guys) Boats made for lakes that hit rough surf fall apart.

Buy 25 and an agressive deadrise - 30 feet. Spend more money to get a newer one with less hours. The Mercury Mag series all the way up to the 502 making 415 hp should be considered. Once you can handle the water, you'll want to go faster. The 350 mag eats similar gas but makes less ponies. Don't kid yourself, you'll want the power and it will cost you later to upgrade! There is nothing wrong with the 350 by the way, but your buying used so don't limit yourself there... You want a long boat that was taken care of. Stay with the offshore profile, it's a nice life..... Also, use a gps to measure speed not the speedometer. I doubt your bayliner ever hit 55 under it's own power. Remember, I've been there and done that.
Oh, make sure the floor of the cockpit is fiberglass, maybe with a snap in rug. Say "no" to carpeted floors that sit on marine plywood. Junk.
Good luck.

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

I think Pantera may be a great boat for you but they may be a little more difficult to find on the west coast.

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

25 Baja Outlaw
24 Pantera

Best buy for the money there... Stock power and Bravo you'll have a bunch of fun.

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

Remember on the Baja, stay with the Outlaw series if you can. They made a 24 and a 25 outlaw that would work. The nervous at speed comes from the boat you are driving. I've been on boats much much faster that I am sure your family would not even know the difference. Longer boats at 40 feel very very slow..... By the way, my 25 Outlaw ran 67 with tuned prop, 65 without it. I could blow through the rough stuff at 55 and no one on my boat did anything but smile. 2 - 7 year olds on board at the time. It would cruise in the 50's very comfortably. In the 60's in calmer waters. But 67 through anything, but then you were in the air some.. :D

415 hp 502 mpi....

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

I would stick to 25 baja outlaw myself. bigger beam.I've had single bigblock and twin small block boats. If you are concerned with safty, you can get a 26-28 twin small block boat with that kind of money and you'll have more stability, and a second motor in case your out with your fam and have a failure. you'll have no prob hitting 65-68. you won't have to get towed, just limp...just a thought..in my opinion.. small blocks can take more abuse. you need 2 of them(chevy 350 mags) but in my opinion thats better than worrying about replacing a big block. Its a little more maintenance and parts but worth it. i'll tell you all the 24' sunsations, panteras, predators, checkmates i've been in all have narrow 7' beams. they have real small cockpits..very fast, but. no good for fam. Go for an 8 ft beam...well worth it....one more thing about twins. even though there are 2 smaller motors, your gas insn't so bad(unless your at 5300 rpm)..A SB twin propped right can cruise at 2300 rpm and your doing about 30mph. you can go forever.secondaries open at about 3100rpm. then your gas starts flowing. ...my 2cents. there's allot out there.try to get a fresh water boat..good luck....ok... back to work.....

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

I definitely want the bigger beam. I did notice the 7' beams on most of yesterday's research. What do you think of this boat. I know you guys prefer the outlaw series, what would be the difference between that and the H2X

http://www.knhmarine.com/boats/perfo...ja24/index.asp

Another question: Boat specs say it weighs 3900lbs. I assume that is with fumes. Realistically, what would the turn key weight be including gas and trailer. Also, I have checked and can goto 27' exactly on storage. If this boat does not have a hinged tongue, can I convert the trailer to it?

Thanks again.

Chris

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

You don't want an H2X I believe it has a 22 degree deadrise ??? and does not handle like an outlaw, plus you have to basically crawl on your hands and knees into the cabin.. I had a 96 baja 232 and loved the good combination of cockpit space, cabin space, 62 mph w/ 7.4. and what I consider very good handling for it's size.

Any good fabricator should be able to convert your trailer to a swing away tounge..

as for the weight, figure 4K for boat, another 500-800 for fuel and gear and a trailer is in the 1,200 range, so around 6K total.

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

The H2X is a lake boat built for speed. Exactly what you do not want. 232 ands 272 are good choices too. Not the same hull as the outlaw and not quite as good in the rough stuff, but still very respectable. I don't agree that two small blocks in a boat "that size" is what you want. The additional weight spread across the stern makes it less agile and in some conditions you are more likely to surface a prop. Want to experiment with prop, it's times two. Two engines to change oil in, two drives to change oil in, two systems to winterize and tune. Do the math, it costs and two small blocks is not faster than one 502 mpi. Keep it simple, one works great and it is less gas. You might be able to limp home but probably should call sea tow anyway. The 25 Outlaw with a single 502 mpi handles very very well and is cheap fun. You would be surprised at what you have to spend to better it.

My 25 weighed 3500 dry. Oh yea, the outlaw is measure without including the length of the swim platform. That means you get as much water line as a 272..

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

Check this out....

http://www.offshoreonly.com/esvon/page-6639.html

http://www.offshoreonly.com/esvon/page-4248.html

or even:

http://www.offshoreonly.com/esvon/page-7276.html

http://www.offshoreonly.com/esvon/page-6682.html

This looks very cool: - wow Bayliner to Fountain...
http://www.offshoreonly.com/esvon/page-6844.html

Looks like the price went down on the above one:
http://www.offshoreonly.com/esvon/page-7310.html

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

The difference is that the person who posted that boat on that web site is dislexic!!!
Notice how that boat is very short. Like these guys say, you don't want a H2X. I used to have a 23' Larson with a 454, and 18 degree deadrise. Very fast boat, big cabin, but couldn't handle the rough stuff worth of crap. If you really want to handle bigger water smoother, you need a 24 degree deadrise. That's a much deeper V, and it rides better.

There are 3 general factors to a smoothe ride... deadrise, length, and weight. The more the smoother, but slower.

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

100 percent.....

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

This Fountain does look like a steal! 5 grand to get it to the west coast. If you can swing it, do it.http://www.offshoreonly.com/esvon/page-7310.html

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

That Fountain is beautfiul, but pricey. Alright, here is what I am learning from everybody. 24 degree deadrise at a minimum. Help me out here. How do I know which boats have that deadrise, not all of them list it. Are there some mfr that are known for it, like Pantera, or is it hit and miss. And correct if I am wrong, I am no Geometrist, but at that deadrise aren't I limited to a tiny (7') beam? So perfection in my mind would be 24 degree deadrise on a 24' boat with an 8' beam. Who makes that? Plus, all of the cockpits are tiny, I would love more space. So add to that a comfy cockpit with more than a doggy door to get into the cuddy. Am I barking up the wrong tree, or is there a solution out there for me to fit all of my "wants"?

Chris

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

25 Active Thunder is a good choice.

http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/5/1/80548451.htm


Harder to find, but a 25 Powerplay with outboards might be a good choice as well.

http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/1/8/81058718.htm

As others have said, the Pantera is a great choice as well. These manufacturers will probably give the best ride "in their class", but will still not be exactly soft. If you need a soft ride, you're gonna have to slow down when it gets rough. A 25' boat is not going to be spanning many waves, it's going to launch at speed.

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

Chris,
In actuality, most go-fast boats DO have an 8' beam. Only a few run narrower beams. I believe Superboat runs a 7' beam. Anything less than 8 is definitely unusual.

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

your not barking up the wrong tree,, Most boats in the 22-26 foot range with 24 degree deadrise are an 8 foot beam. like I said, I had a 232 and thought it was a good combination of cabin, cockpit, handling, speed, styling, if you could find one w/ a MPI It should meet your $$ and space requirements, and is a fun boat all around.

Offshore cockpits are inheriantly small, with kids and what not I would also consider the baja islander, I never liked bow riders until I relaxed in one for the day,, they are actually quite convienient for getting out of the way of a cramped cockpit.

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

I feel like a Baja salesman. I own a Fountain by the way. The 25 Outlaw has a 8 foot beam, 24 degree deadrise and a respectable cabin. I posted at least one of those in one of my earlier posts. You reading this stuff??? :D

I also thought the 42k for the Fountain was in your price range?? Maybe I need to re-read..... :evilb:

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

Again, I want to "test drive" these boats in question to see if I like the feel. I am probably going to look at a older Pantera 24 next week with a "newer" 496 Mag. I will see it when I get there, but the cockpit looks super tiny. Looking at Baja's website, I am thinking realistically , the 232 outlaw or Islander is probably the way to go. Obviously I want to get out on one before I make my purchase decision. Another few questions:

I have a 5L V8 carb in my Bayliner. The gas sticker shock doesn't bother me, even at $4.00 a gallon. I have no idea the MPG numbers. By your best guesstimate, what would going to a 6.2 or even the 496 on a 24' do on gas use incomparison to the 21' Bay V8 I have assuming same amount of use. 10% more, 20%, double, triple the amount, just need a basis?

Going back to the doggy door access, are the cuddys worthless? I have a bowrider, bow is not used much at all. Thought was to goto a cuddy to have a tiny "den" for the kids and me to relax in to nap, read, whatever. Consider the Baja 232, is that a waste of space for the cuddy and should I focus on another open bow?

Maintenance: For my Bayliner, I won't say cheap, but inexpensive. Standard stuff; Tune-ups, oil changes, impellar changes, bellow checks, Throttle cable issues, ect. Anything more on an offshore as far as systems to maintain, or just a bigger engine means bigger expense.

Water Skiing: We use the Bayliner about 10% of the time for water skiing. How does the offshore hull and draft effect the wakes when waterskiing behind it.

Shipping: I am finding a lot of boats that interest me nowhere near Los Angeles. I saw the $5000 cost to ship from Florida. Is is roughly $1 per mile and should calculate that way if I see a boat. And that being said, do you guys trust out of state surveyers, or do you hop on a plane and fly there for the weekend?

This website has been a wonderful tool for learning, and appreciate all of the help.

Chris

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

guy next door has a 22 bottom liner w/ 5.0 L V8 burns about 20 gph at WOT, a 375 hp - 425 hp BB is going to burn around 35. I would assume a 6.2 would be around 30 gph.

Maintenace cost over your previous motor shouldn't be an issue.

Cabin space on my 232 was a wrap around half bench, with a small V-berth, cabin door had excellent access,, only doggie doors I know of were on the h2x, outlaw's, and performance seies have nice doors. It was o.k. for occasional overnighting, getting out of the sun but thats about it, not great but not worthless either, fine for kids and a couple of adults. Except for sonics most cabins in the 22-26 foot range are pretty similar, sonic by far has great cabins. My 288 cabin if very useful, plenty of room for 4 adults, sink, lockers, v-berth, comfortable.

Waterskiing should not be a problem,, most boats in this size will stay on plane in the 20-24 mph range,wakeboarding was a little tougher because ideally I liked to be going 19-21 mph, tabs helped this aspect.

We had a 24 pantera on the local lake here and the cockpit did seem pretty small compared to the baja's.

Checkmates also seem to be well laid out, I have seen several 25's and would take a look.

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

The purpose of my post was to give you an idea of what can be had. Further, one can assume that these prices are negotable, so you should get in for less. If you test drive boats that are local and like the ride but not the deal, then you can buy from afar. You can go to Powerboat.com or boattest.com and get reviews that discuss storage and talk to fuel costs. Boatest shows this for the 25 Outlaw for example-


RPM MPH Knots GPH MPG NMPG Range Range dBa
700 4.3 3.7 1.5 2.93 2.55 251 218 69
1000 6.7 5.8 2.5 2.71 2.36 232 202 67
1500 8.5 7.3 4.1 2.09 1.81 178 155 77
2000 9.2 8.0 6.2 1.48 1.29 127 110 77
2500 24.4 21.2 8.4 2.92 2.54 249 217 81
3000 28.8 25.0 10.7 2.69 2.34 230 200 86
3500 41.1 35.7 15.3 2.69 2.34 230 200 89
4000 55.0 47.8 21.0 2.63 2.28 224 195 90
4500 60.8 52.9 30.2 2.02 1.75 172 150 93
4800 65.6 57.0 31.7 2.07 1.80 177 154 93

You can compare these numbers to your boat. The tune up costs and other standard stuff is similar in price. Oil might be a bit more and with EFI tuneups last longer.

I am not familar with the 232 but knowing what the 24 Outlaw's cabin looked like I would think it too small. I like cabins. Don't think I'd read in them, but they have their advantages over bowriders. The 232 and the Islander are not Offshore boats by the way.

If you like the wake your Bayliner makes for water skiing, the other boats will work too.


Used Formula's and Fountains will hold their value better than a Baja.

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

I must be wrong on model numbers. I thought the 232 was etiher Islander or Outlaw, I stand ocrrected. I would prefer the outlaw hull per your suggestions regarding the deadrise issue. I forgot two more questions, and pretty soon, I will be an offshore salesman too!:

Windshield: Am I crazy to want a windshield? I am assuming it shave a couple of MPH off the top end, but not getting bugs in my teeth or teary eyes is well worth it. What am I missing here. Can any boat be fitted with a windshield as an option, or are they limited to particulalar models.

Exhaust: Coming from a prop hubbed exhaust on my Bayliner, I know if I go with a through hull exhaust, the first time I turn it on, my wife will punch a hole in the boat and sink it. That being said, all are through hull exhausts LOUD? Is there a quiet version, or is the prop hub exhaust the quiet version. And how does Captains call play into this. I have read previous posts and I am still on this issue lost.


Chris

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

There is the performance series of Baja's, like 232, 275, usually w/ windshields, outlaw series have fairings, but I have seen a few performance seires boats w/ fairings. The windhield on my 232 was fine for looking through sitting down but driving it 90% of the time standing up, you were up in the wind anyway. People will argue, but IMO there is hardly any difference in ride between the ride of a 25 outlaw and a 272, which are basically same length hull.

The exhaust issue can be solved w/ captains choice, it directs it through the prop just like your gayliner when the wife is aboard and when you wanna race around with it in the open position, it's switchable, and many of the boats that you are looking at will have it already installed. Mufflers also work but IMO not as well....

Re: Question regarding offshore boats
 

Windshield or fairing doesn;t matter. What matters is can you see and how does the boat deflect wind at speed. My Outlaw had a small windscreen while my Fountain has a windshield. The Outlaw had less air (and bugs) blowing through than the Fountain.

Captains call or Silent Choice gives the option (flip a switch on the dash) of directing all of the exhaust through the prop, or some of the exhaust through the hull and some through the hub.
You go from very very quite to loud - your option.

Only having through hull exhaust (without mufflers) is not what you want as it is way too loud. Don;t think it's even legal in the Golden State. There are mufflers that can be added though.

Through hull and muffled should be fine (you should listen - some are louder).