Like Tree0Likes

Catalytic Coverters by 2008...Bummer

Reply
Old 01-18-2008, 03:13 PM
  #51
Registered
 
AIR TIME's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: EASTON MA.
My Boats: BAJA OL 650HP/ SABER 28 Gellner unlimited with konrad ace
Posts: 6,281
Default

How true, in INDIA they still bring old ships to some bay where they just cut and burn the parts off the ships at low tide I saw that on TV smog all a long the bay. talk about pollution there the two biggest pigs. what happens when you buy a hull only and put your used power,drive and stuff in it say a joker28 and I want to strip my outlaws motor,steering and drive?? in 08, or 09. art
AIR TIME is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2008, 03:15 PM
  #52
Registered
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 57
Default

All new vehicle regs from quite recently rather than what they've done in the last decade!

India is Euro 4 (about LEV) and China is EU3 I think (I'd need to check) for new vehicles. China also introduced pretty stringent fuel con regs that are way more aggressive than the EU or US. THe air quality probs come from older vehicles. You've got to start somewhere! The older cars will fall out of use and the overall emissions reduces. You've also got to remember that industrial emissions (In China particularly) are shocking. Not the cars to blame there (for once!)

I agree it is a lot of sensors and that will be part of the challenge. Yo are only talking about a few more than an existing EFI though. Compared with an existing twin engine EFI setup I'd guess you'd be looking at 2 O2 sensors (4 for CA). Two cats, poss two cat temp sensors you pointed out the need for. Probably tops 20 lbs the lot. If you follow the INDMAR approach and create a non-cast header, you'd save some weight there too.

Yes I appreciate that running a twin engined boat with current fuel prices is hard, so saving some fuel would help. What sort of typical problems are people experiencing with their EFI boats in service then?

Sterile enviroment? hehe I've been places testing that would make your ears burn chap. And I don't ever remember Yucca being that sterile; the boats over Labor Day at LHC were fun though and an eye-opener to someone from this side of the pond. Never seen that many boats in one place at once.

We do get a lot of information from real in-service reports and I always find that finding out how things actually operate in the real world and feeding it back to the process is more interesting than a lot of things. What goes wrong, why, how, get to the bottom of it and fix it. I don't know how you think big engineering companies work but if people didn't actually understand this stuff they'd go bust in very short order as no-one would buy their stuff! Perhaps there's a lot of companies over there with poor customer service, in-market backup and little understanding of their product. Or perhaps they're too big to care. The fact remains that you have to do proper durability and testing before launching a major mass market product or you lose your shirt!

That said, I always build my own engines and vehicles when work needs to be done, so I'm not the clueless lab jockey you clearly seem think I am!!

@ Airtime

The way I read the regs it only affects new builds so if you use your used power plants then no problem. If you bought two new crate engines from a major manufacturer then I guess they'd be ready for install in an emissions compliant boat.

Last edited by Ruaraidh; 01-18-2008 at 03:19 PM.
Ruaraidh is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2008, 04:42 PM
  #53
Registered
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seabrook, Tx
My Boats: 2005 42' EX //twin 525's
Posts: 881
Default

I should not be giving you a hard time. You are just the messenger. Don't take me wrong this is not personal. I guess I am just tired of clueless politicians and liberal tree huggers deciding on how I spend my money. The key to your statement is and I quote" a few more" which translates into more cost. I can't imagine these cats and sensors are cheap. In my twin 496's in my old boat almost every one of the sensors failed with 250 hours. Aren't catalytic converters filled with some rare minerals or even platinum? Who is going to monitor this? What is it going to cost? Am I going to have to pull my boat out to have this done. Is some water cop going to carry around a hand held device to check this, like they do with DB meters? From what I have seen the DB test is arbitrarily and poorly applied? What is the cost of the cat when they fail? Let's go on and on with the questions and I don't even live in CA. Eventually this will affect all of us. One more freedom that will be taken away from us. I lived through the 70's and 80's when we couldn't build a decent car. It took 20 years to figure out how to successfully integrate pollution controls into a car and make them work correctly. My brand new Dodge diesel truck has a pollution scrubbing canister so you can run low sulphur fuel that causes the check engine light to come on at a regular interval. Here is the statement from the service advisor at Dodge " don't worry about it unless it flashes, they all do that, something about it fills up with carbon deposits and then needs to clean itself out. Eventually the Dodge engineers will figure out how to correct this." Maybe they shouldn't put this on a new vehicle until you have all of the bugs worked out. But I am sure in order to meet some government mandated reg. They rushed it into production.
gerritm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2008, 09:37 PM
  #54
Registered
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Newbury Park, CA
Posts: 1,425
Default

These regulations have been brought about, NOT because of air quality concerns, but because marine engines CAN BE regulated, and they are not. I remember talking to a woman in the EPA office in San Francisco, and she couldn't stand that marine engines had no emission controls. She had no supporting data as to their contribution to air pollution.

There is an old saying, "Give me one false assumption, and I can prove anything." That's what's happening with the marine engine pollution inventories.

By the way, you can kiss the hobby of building your own marine engines goodbye. The only provision in the regulations for building your own engines is if you build the entire boat yourself, including building the hull (yeah, right!). There goes another family activity that brings parents and kids together right out the window. Performance engines are one of the few things that will get a teenager to do something with their parents. Now thanks to the politicians, we scratch that off the short list.

Michael

Last edited by Michael1; 01-18-2008 at 09:46 PM.
Michael1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2008, 01:47 PM
  #55
Registered
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 2,777
"Gravey Train" !!

Michael:
You've almost hit the "NAIL" on the head. The people, agencies and politicians who come up with rediculous regulations, requirements and laws do so becuase the agencies and people create and protect their own power base "gravey train" jobs. Most of these people don't have any clue supported by real science or facts as to the real % pollution contributed by boats as demonstrated by your conversation with the women at the EPA or Carb.
They have been riding on this conservation and protection bandwagon so long its starting to smell!
What we really need is are laws protecting us from these type of people and agendas!
Give any bureaucrat and most politicians power and they will exploit and abuse it. This has now sadly become one of the laws of "physics" in America today!
We will continue to slip into this overpriced, mis-concieved , bureaucratic hole until the economic engine that pays for this idiocracy has suffered catastrophic engine failure!
Learn the facts, educate yourself, pay attention, vote with and support real "public Servants" and do not let these agencies, politicians and over regulation destroy our future!
They will be the first ones to "Whine" when they break the bank!

With upset Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
Raylar is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2008, 09:36 AM
  #56
Registered
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seabrook, Tx
My Boats: 2005 42' EX //twin 525's
Posts: 881
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raylar View Post
Michael:
You've almost hit the "NAIL" on the head. The people, agencies and politicians who come up with rediculous regulations, requirements and laws do so becuase the agencies and people create and protect their own power base "gravey train" jobs. Most of these people don't have any clue supported by real science or facts as to the real % pollution contributed by boats as demonstrated by your conversation with the women at the EPA or Carb.
They have been riding on this conservation and protection bandwagon so long its starting to smell!
What we really need is are laws protecting us from these type of people and agendas!
Give any bureaucrat and most politicians power and they will exploit and abuse it. This has now sadly become one of the laws of "physics" in America today!
We will continue to slip into this overpriced, mis-concieved , bureaucratic hole until the economic engine that pays for this idiocracy has suffered catastrophic engine failure!
Learn the facts, educate yourself, pay attention, vote with and support real "public Servants" and do not let these agencies, politicians and over regulation destroy our future!
They will be the first ones to "Whine" when they break the bank!

With upset Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
100% agree. If you are a little older and lived thru Jimmy Carter, you will see where we are heading. He collasped the economy with his taxes and fees, I see this coming in the near future. Big government is becoming big brother. Remember "Those who can -- do, those who can't --go into politics."
gerritm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2008, 10:45 PM
  #57
Registered
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Newbury Park, CA
Posts: 1,425
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raylar View Post
Michael:
You've almost hit the "NAIL" on the head. The people, agencies and politicians who come up with rediculous regulations, requirements and laws do so becuase the agencies and people create and protect their own power base "gravey train" jobs. Most of these people don't have any clue supported by real science or facts as to the real % pollution contributed by boats as demonstrated by your conversation with the women at the EPA or Carb.
They have been riding on this conservation and protection bandwagon so long its starting to smell!
It's even worse than I reported. I spoke to a woman at the California Air Resources Board, and she said the regulations were "designed to require catalytic converters on boats", not that "we are trying to clean the air by X% so we set the emission levels to achieve that goal." They have completely lost sight of their public purpose, and it's become regulation for the sake of regulation.

Michael
Michael1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2008, 08:14 AM
  #58
Registered
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 57
Default

The regs have so little WOT weighting that they are basically designed to mean you have to run closed loop at part load and the WOT stuff you can do pretty much anything you want to keep things cool.

I'll dig out the weighting stuff later but this is definitely "low hanging fruit territory" as cars are pretty much 99.5% converted these days about 30s after start (LEV2). Not much more room for manoever there.

As to the legitimacy of the regulations wrt Government agencies, I assume that they're adopting the approach that if it CAN be cleaned it should be. No exceptions. That appears to be their reasoning. I'll leave the whys and wherefores of that to you! Safe to say that the US has been the world leader in automotive clean air for a very long time.

Out of interest, does anyone eg powerboat associations etc, have a real idea of how many (large inboard for example) boats there actually are? State registries etc?

@GerritM With your Dodge I assume you are talking about a particulate filter? I still don't know why the Big three keep insisting on developing this stuff new in the State and then rolling it out unfinished when the technology exists within their European arms and is mature.

Last edited by Ruaraidh; 01-22-2008 at 08:16 AM.
Ruaraidh is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2008, 08:43 AM
  #59
Registered
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
My Boats: 1987 Donzi 22; 2008 Donzi 28 ZXO
Posts: 1,654
Default

I didn't get into this earlier, but I have a few big problems with Cats.

First off, a well tuned engine (no cat) can pass emissions tests with no problem. They may not be as good, but they are really good as is and get better fuel economy from not having the extra weight etc.

Second, I feel we are robbing peter to pay paul. Cats add weight, complexity, heat, and use precious metals in the design. We have to mine the metals, ship all these heavy products around the world, manufacture them into Cats, then they get drug around on cars until they go bad... Then, once they are bad, where do they wind up??? I have a hard time believing that they help the environment overall.

Third, it seems really retarded to force them into a pleasure market. Most boats rarely get used, that has to factor into the cost, as well as factoring in how many boaters will get rid of them all together.

Forth, when most engines really could actually use a cat (old, worn out, not tuned right) they are too expensive to realistically replace. If you are driving down the road in a $1,000 truck, are you seriously going to replace a $500 cat?
VetteLT193 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2008, 11:43 AM
  #60
Registered
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 227
Default

Guys,

Just a parallel point that might be worth mentioning:

Years ago, I was told that there would never, and I mean never, be four-stroke engines in personal watecraft. The person who told me, granted was a watercraft company executive, a good friend with (obviously) an interest to protect. But he gave me a long and what seemed to be reasonable list of why it would "never" happen.

And now every major PWC has four-strokes And they kick butt. They lack the instant thwack of two-strokes, but midrange and top-end are as good or better.

Point being? As GLH suggested, don't underestimate American ingenuity. And, unlike GLH's reference, it isn't always about gaming the system. Raylar and Ruaraidh make solid and reasonable points.

Yes, CARB and the EPA make idiotic regulations. Government, liberal and conservative, often does. But private industry ... that's where innovation comes from, especially if there's money to be made. A perfected cat system for marine applications doesn't, from what I read here, exist at this point. But I'll bet it will. Anyone care to bet against me?

Last, DMOORE, of course you can make your own choices. You can certainly wrench on your own engine, and EFI pretty much precludes that unless you have a host of spendy diagnostic tools. But dude, uh, EFI is so dialed in these days. Ask D'Annaballe at Sterling, Pffaf, Teague, JC ... anyone who builds engines for a living. Those guys cut their teeth on carbs, but they all will tell you, flat out, that EFI is the way to go.
100-Plus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply

Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
rockstrmkr
Ft Myers Offshore
4
10-09-2008 02:41 PM
BobbyB
General Boating Discussion
9
07-26-2004 10:12 PM
FlyFast
General Q & A
17
07-20-2004 01:38 AM
JUSTONCE
General Boating Discussion
21
06-24-2003 11:56 AM



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:21 PM.


Copyright 2011 OffShoreOnly. All rights reserved.