Ethanol ???
05-05-2006, 02:54 PM
#41
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Re: Ethanol ???
Originally Posted by Linster
I feel for all the Boat Owners with problems. I do not have any sympathy for the builders who have issues and want to blame someone else to avoid a warranty. The Builders need to step up to the plate and Warranty there problems and make it right to the customers.
And you hate boat builders because.....?
It appears that you have a lot of knowledge on the subject...or you google well. Regardless, unless you are an oil company executive, or a political type, I'm afraid I don't get your venom.
Since the pipelines themselves are degrading........and no one had more advance warning than they did.... This stuff has surprised a lot of people.... except, .....apparently,..... you.
Who will you blame for the boat that was constructed in 1988 with fibreglass tanks...... by a now defunct company?? ...or had an old fuel system with aluminum tanks....but rubber hoses.... that are not ethanol retardant and now leak into some boats' balsa core?
Should the owners take solace in the fact that the builders..."should have known better" and do what...litigate?
What about the various people that "knew" MTBE was coming....should they have taken precautions to prevent the Cancer it causes........ in the face of the typical back slapping propaganda that the EPA conducted around its "clean air" campaign?
This is bigger than "warrantee" work. This is about having things shoved down your throat....or into your fill cap.
T2x
05-05-2006, 03:04 PM
#42
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Re: Ethanol ???
Seems like The Wall Street Journal agrees with me........
The Gasoline Follies
March 28, 2006; Page A20
Gasoline prices are rising again, and this time Iraq or hurricanes aren't to blame. Congress's energy policy mistakes are finally catching up with it, and American drivers are paying for the bungles.
The average U.S. retail pump price for gasoline has been hovering around $2.50 a gallon the past few weeks; prices are now at their highest since last October -- or back when the country was dealing with Katrina. The federal Energy Information Administration (EIA) has warned this may only be the beginning, and parts of the country could see pump prices well over $3 a gallon going into summer. Happy Memorial Day.
Drivers can send their thank-you notes to Capitol Hill, which created the conditions for this mess last summer with its latest energy bill. That legislation contained a sop to Midwest corn farmers in the form of a huge new ethanol mandate that began this year and requires drivers to consume 7.5 billion gallons a year by 2012. At the same time, Congress refused to include liability protection for producers of MTBE, a rival oxygen fuel-additive that has become a tort lawyer target. So MTBE makers are pulling out, ethanol makers can't make up the difference quickly enough, and gas supplies are getting squeezed.
It didn't take an economics degree to see this coming. The MTBE industry's defense in the many lawsuits claiming its product has contaminated water supplies is that since 1990 the government has required use of oxygenates like MTBE. But with that requirement expiring in May, producers and refiners will face far greater liability, which has set off a race to exit the market. Valero, one of the largest manufacturers, has already announced plans to phase out production. Even the pipeline operators that carry MTBE to high-use areas in the Northeast are backing away.
This abrupt cut-off of a product that makes up some 1.4% of the nation's fuel supply -- and far greater percentages in some places -- is certain to wreak price havoc. According to a February EIA report, ethanol production is already running near its capacity of 283,000 barrels a day. Yet "about 130,000 barrels per day of additional ethanol may be needed to replace the MTBE currently used" in gas.
Even Bob Dinneen, head of the Renewable Fuels Association and promoter-in-chief of all things ethanol, is admitting his industry can't make up the shortfall. "We're adding as much [production capacity] as we can, as fast as we can. But I don't think anybody anticipated refiners would be hemorrhaging MTBE as quickly as they are," he said recently. We're not sure what corn farm Mr. Dinneen has been living on, but MTBE producers have been warning Congress for years that this is precisely what would happen if it failed to offer the industry legal protection.
The bigger question is whether all this newly mandated ethanol -- the subsidized profits of which are funneled to Midwest farmers and agribusiness giants like ADM -- will even make it to its destinations. Unlike MTBE, ethanol can't be shipped ready-made through pipes. Instead it must be trucked or carried by rail from the Midwest to terminals near its ultimate selling point, where it then must be blended with a special unfinished fuel that is shipped separately through pipelines.
This is creating a logistical nightmare, forcing refiners to add blending facilities at their terminals, convert tanks to hold ethanol, and switch over retail outlets. To give a sense of this experiment, consider that only about one-third of all reformulated gas used on the East Coast is currently blended at terminals; the rest is produced or delivered as finished product. That now must change, in a matter of months, and at a time when refiners face a blizzard of separate new regulations. An ultra-low sulfur diesel program begins June 1, another gift horse from Congress.
Imports could help, though the domestic ethanol industry has made sure those also come at a dear price. Ethanol imports are subject to a 2.5% tariff and a second duty of 54 cents a gallon. This is particularly unfortunate for Texas or East Coast residents, who'd benefit greatly if they could get their ethanol (duty free) from local ports rather than pay to have it trucked across the country.
But such economic sense would defeat the purpose of a law designed not to reduce gas prices but instead to underwrite a politically powerful ethanol industry that can't survive without giant government handouts, protectionism and the brute force of mandates. The only bright spot is that perhaps the current travails will put to rest calls that America emulate Brazil -- which sunk billions of state money into a giant ethanol infrastructure so that it could become "energy independent."
As it is, the U.S. already produces more ethanol than Brazil, and even today's four-million-gallon requirement is clearly straining the industry. Increasing ethanol use much beyond the 2012 mandate is going to require that entire states be planted with corn and sugar, or a scientific breakthrough involving biomass and grass. Meantime, prepare to pay more for gas.
This ethanol-MTBE fiasco is just the latest example of what happens when Congress holds energy markets hostage to narrow special interests. If Republicans on Capitol Hill wonder why their approval ratings stay low as gasoline prices rise this spring and summer, we suggest they look in the mirror.
It's your turn Linster.....
T2x
The Gasoline Follies
March 28, 2006; Page A20
Gasoline prices are rising again, and this time Iraq or hurricanes aren't to blame. Congress's energy policy mistakes are finally catching up with it, and American drivers are paying for the bungles.
The average U.S. retail pump price for gasoline has been hovering around $2.50 a gallon the past few weeks; prices are now at their highest since last October -- or back when the country was dealing with Katrina. The federal Energy Information Administration (EIA) has warned this may only be the beginning, and parts of the country could see pump prices well over $3 a gallon going into summer. Happy Memorial Day.
Drivers can send their thank-you notes to Capitol Hill, which created the conditions for this mess last summer with its latest energy bill. That legislation contained a sop to Midwest corn farmers in the form of a huge new ethanol mandate that began this year and requires drivers to consume 7.5 billion gallons a year by 2012. At the same time, Congress refused to include liability protection for producers of MTBE, a rival oxygen fuel-additive that has become a tort lawyer target. So MTBE makers are pulling out, ethanol makers can't make up the difference quickly enough, and gas supplies are getting squeezed.
It didn't take an economics degree to see this coming. The MTBE industry's defense in the many lawsuits claiming its product has contaminated water supplies is that since 1990 the government has required use of oxygenates like MTBE. But with that requirement expiring in May, producers and refiners will face far greater liability, which has set off a race to exit the market. Valero, one of the largest manufacturers, has already announced plans to phase out production. Even the pipeline operators that carry MTBE to high-use areas in the Northeast are backing away.
This abrupt cut-off of a product that makes up some 1.4% of the nation's fuel supply -- and far greater percentages in some places -- is certain to wreak price havoc. According to a February EIA report, ethanol production is already running near its capacity of 283,000 barrels a day. Yet "about 130,000 barrels per day of additional ethanol may be needed to replace the MTBE currently used" in gas.
Even Bob Dinneen, head of the Renewable Fuels Association and promoter-in-chief of all things ethanol, is admitting his industry can't make up the shortfall. "We're adding as much [production capacity] as we can, as fast as we can. But I don't think anybody anticipated refiners would be hemorrhaging MTBE as quickly as they are," he said recently. We're not sure what corn farm Mr. Dinneen has been living on, but MTBE producers have been warning Congress for years that this is precisely what would happen if it failed to offer the industry legal protection.
The bigger question is whether all this newly mandated ethanol -- the subsidized profits of which are funneled to Midwest farmers and agribusiness giants like ADM -- will even make it to its destinations. Unlike MTBE, ethanol can't be shipped ready-made through pipes. Instead it must be trucked or carried by rail from the Midwest to terminals near its ultimate selling point, where it then must be blended with a special unfinished fuel that is shipped separately through pipelines.
This is creating a logistical nightmare, forcing refiners to add blending facilities at their terminals, convert tanks to hold ethanol, and switch over retail outlets. To give a sense of this experiment, consider that only about one-third of all reformulated gas used on the East Coast is currently blended at terminals; the rest is produced or delivered as finished product. That now must change, in a matter of months, and at a time when refiners face a blizzard of separate new regulations. An ultra-low sulfur diesel program begins June 1, another gift horse from Congress.
Imports could help, though the domestic ethanol industry has made sure those also come at a dear price. Ethanol imports are subject to a 2.5% tariff and a second duty of 54 cents a gallon. This is particularly unfortunate for Texas or East Coast residents, who'd benefit greatly if they could get their ethanol (duty free) from local ports rather than pay to have it trucked across the country.
But such economic sense would defeat the purpose of a law designed not to reduce gas prices but instead to underwrite a politically powerful ethanol industry that can't survive without giant government handouts, protectionism and the brute force of mandates. The only bright spot is that perhaps the current travails will put to rest calls that America emulate Brazil -- which sunk billions of state money into a giant ethanol infrastructure so that it could become "energy independent."
As it is, the U.S. already produces more ethanol than Brazil, and even today's four-million-gallon requirement is clearly straining the industry. Increasing ethanol use much beyond the 2012 mandate is going to require that entire states be planted with corn and sugar, or a scientific breakthrough involving biomass and grass. Meantime, prepare to pay more for gas.
This ethanol-MTBE fiasco is just the latest example of what happens when Congress holds energy markets hostage to narrow special interests. If Republicans on Capitol Hill wonder why their approval ratings stay low as gasoline prices rise this spring and summer, we suggest they look in the mirror.
It's your turn Linster.....
T2x
Last edited by T2x; 05-05-2006 at 03:08 PM.
05-05-2006, 03:09 PM
#43
Gold Member
Re: Ethanol ???
The day will probably come in the next 20 years where gasoline is not around...additives mixed in a 90% ethanol fuel and hydrogen are what the future holds... and new technology will make it work...just like everyone though going to unleaded gas was impossible..well guess what..
05-05-2006, 05:19 PM
#44
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Re: Ethanol ???
Originally Posted by T2x
Linster:
And you hate boat builders because.....?
I don't hate builders, they just don't seem to want to warranty anything after they have the money.
It appears that you have a lot of knowledge on the subject...or you google well. Regardless, unless you are an oil company executive, or a political type, I'm afraid I don't get your venom.
Not an Oil executive or political type, I am a contractor that builds gas station for others, i do not sell fuel. I can care less about any oil companies, I do not own any oil stock. All I am trying to say is ethanol has been around for a long while, not something new.
Since the pipelines themselves are degrading........and no one had more advance warning than they did.... This stuff has surprised a lot of people.... except, .....apparently,..... you.
I live less than 500 yards from where the jet fuel blew. Not my line, mad it happened. Not many people visit EPA sites other than hard core environmentalist. Boring, no neat boats or women with skimpy tops. That's why it is new to a lot of people. The tank industry is highly regulated but the operators cut every corner to save a buck.
Who will you blame for the boat that was constructed in 1988 with fiberglass tanks...... by a now defunct company?? ...or had an old fuel system with aluminum tanks....but rubber hoses.... that are not ethanol retardant and now leak into some boats' balsa core?
All cheap boats have Aluminum tanks, but they are not leaking. Ihave ethanol gas in mine now without a problem, so far. The tank will not be a problem, the hoses will need to be looked at.
Should the owners take solace in the fact that the builders..."should have known better" and do what...litigate?
They should have, If I have a 500K boat with 1200's and my tanks are leaking, My lawyer would be talking. I hate lawyers but it is sometimes the only way to get things done.
What about the various people that "knew" MTBE was coming....should they have taken precautions to prevent the Cancer it causes........ in the face of the typical back slapping propaganda that the EPA conducted around its "clean air" campaign?
MTBE was not meant to be ingested, It did not come from the air but the water you drink, like ethanol, it mixes with water as gas does not. All the reasons MTBE was eliminated was because of it getting into ground water.
This is bigger than "warrantee" work. This is about having things shoved down your throat....or into your fill cap.
I hate it too, I tried to get regular gas delivered to my yard for my boat not knowing the issues of how it was going to react with ethanol. It seems it is OK is all I am trying to say other than people who use FRP tanks. I put in over 75 FRP gas tanks a year. Nothing is wrong with FRP. The manufacturer did something wrong with the application to cause an issue.
We are on the same page here, just looking at it differently, Take a custom paint job, If the product is not installed right, it flakes off. I hope this makes some sense.
T2x
And you hate boat builders because.....?
I don't hate builders, they just don't seem to want to warranty anything after they have the money.
It appears that you have a lot of knowledge on the subject...or you google well. Regardless, unless you are an oil company executive, or a political type, I'm afraid I don't get your venom.
Not an Oil executive or political type, I am a contractor that builds gas station for others, i do not sell fuel. I can care less about any oil companies, I do not own any oil stock. All I am trying to say is ethanol has been around for a long while, not something new.
Since the pipelines themselves are degrading........and no one had more advance warning than they did.... This stuff has surprised a lot of people.... except, .....apparently,..... you.
I live less than 500 yards from where the jet fuel blew. Not my line, mad it happened. Not many people visit EPA sites other than hard core environmentalist. Boring, no neat boats or women with skimpy tops. That's why it is new to a lot of people. The tank industry is highly regulated but the operators cut every corner to save a buck.
Who will you blame for the boat that was constructed in 1988 with fiberglass tanks...... by a now defunct company?? ...or had an old fuel system with aluminum tanks....but rubber hoses.... that are not ethanol retardant and now leak into some boats' balsa core?
All cheap boats have Aluminum tanks, but they are not leaking. Ihave ethanol gas in mine now without a problem, so far. The tank will not be a problem, the hoses will need to be looked at.
Should the owners take solace in the fact that the builders..."should have known better" and do what...litigate?
They should have, If I have a 500K boat with 1200's and my tanks are leaking, My lawyer would be talking. I hate lawyers but it is sometimes the only way to get things done.
What about the various people that "knew" MTBE was coming....should they have taken precautions to prevent the Cancer it causes........ in the face of the typical back slapping propaganda that the EPA conducted around its "clean air" campaign?
MTBE was not meant to be ingested, It did not come from the air but the water you drink, like ethanol, it mixes with water as gas does not. All the reasons MTBE was eliminated was because of it getting into ground water.
This is bigger than "warrantee" work. This is about having things shoved down your throat....or into your fill cap.
I hate it too, I tried to get regular gas delivered to my yard for my boat not knowing the issues of how it was going to react with ethanol. It seems it is OK is all I am trying to say other than people who use FRP tanks. I put in over 75 FRP gas tanks a year. Nothing is wrong with FRP. The manufacturer did something wrong with the application to cause an issue.
We are on the same page here, just looking at it differently, Take a custom paint job, If the product is not installed right, it flakes off. I hope this makes some sense.
T2x
07-19-2006, 09:01 PM
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Re: Ethanol ???
What's the deal guys I am hearing rumors of real nasty chit regarding ethanol and blower motors. Pistons, rings, whole top of the motor is shot. This fuel with etnanol is running too 'dry' there's not enough lubrication or whatever ... so the hotter burning blower motors will see effects first.
With all the rumors of carbs, fuel seperators, filters etc this is getting real phucked up!
Friends have told me not to run my boat unless I plan on doing motors jobs after 1 season. There has to be some kind of additive or something ... 2-cycle in the proper ratio?? ... 116 octane race fuel ratio ... diesel mix???
More and more its looking like the government has really phucked up here!!!
With all the rumors of carbs, fuel seperators, filters etc this is getting real phucked up!
Friends have told me not to run my boat unless I plan on doing motors jobs after 1 season. There has to be some kind of additive or something ... 2-cycle in the proper ratio?? ... 116 octane race fuel ratio ... diesel mix??? More and more its looking like the government has really phucked up here!!!
07-19-2006, 09:24 PM
#47
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Re: Ethanol ???
Originally Posted by NJgr8ful
What's the deal guys I am hearing rumors of real nasty chit regarding ethanol and blower motors. Pistons, rings, whole top of the motor is shot. This fuel with etnanol is running too 'dry' there's not enough lubrication or whatever ... so the hotter burning blower motors will see effects first.
With all the rumors of carbs, fuel seperators, filters etc this is getting real phucked up! Friends have told me not to run my boat unless I plan on doing motors jobs after 1 season. There has to be some kind of additive or something ... 2-cycle in the proper ratio?? ... 116 octane race fuel ratio ... diesel mix???
More and more its looking like the government has really phucked up here!!!
With all the rumors of carbs, fuel seperators, filters etc this is getting real phucked up!
Friends have told me not to run my boat unless I plan on doing motors jobs after 1 season. There has to be some kind of additive or something ... 2-cycle in the proper ratio?? ... 116 octane race fuel ratio ... diesel mix??? More and more its looking like the government has really phucked up here!!!
You need to get some better informed friends.
Ethanol is rinning to "dry"?? The only lubrication in gas was removed 30 years ago, lead.Ethanol will raise the octane rating. Correctly jetted blower motors, love it.
Don't worry so much. Change your fuel filters and check plugs for jetting, if you have carbs.
07-19-2006, 11:33 PM
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Re: Ethanol ???
Originally Posted by Payton
You need to get some better informed friends. Ethanol is rinning to "dry"?? The only lubrication in gas was removed 30 years ago, lead.
Ethanol will raise the octane rating. Correctly jetted blower motors, love it.
Don't worry so much. Change your fuel filters and check plugs for jetting, if you have carbs.
Ethanol is rinning to "dry"?? The only lubrication in gas was removed 30 years ago, lead.Ethanol will raise the octane rating. Correctly jetted blower motors, love it.
Don't worry so much. Change your fuel filters and check plugs for jetting, if you have carbs.
Last edited by NJgr8ful; 07-20-2006 at 04:02 AM.
07-21-2006, 05:02 PM
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Re: Ethanol ???
Originally Posted by NJgr8ful
Gee Payton, thanks
Last edited by Papache; 09-04-2007 at 11:19 PM.
