Ethanol ???
 

I have been doing a little research and found this on Mercury's website. Boy, they really clear that up didn't they! Would anyone happen to have the manual for a 1998 BBC available?

"Can I use reformulated or oxygenated fuels?


Reformulated (oxygenated) gasolines are required in certain areas of the USA. The two types of "oxygenates" used in these fuels are alcohol (ethanol) or ether (MTBE or ETBE). These reformulated gasolines are acceptable for use in your MerCruiser engine. If the gasoline in your area contains either methanol (methyl alcohol) or ethanol, you should be aware of certain adverse effects that can occur. See your operation and maintenance manual for details. "

Re: Ethanol ???
 

Found this one the EPA website:
http://www.epa.gov/OMS/rfgboats.htm

Can you use reformulated gasoline in marine engines?
Marine engine manufacturers have indicated that the use of reformulated gasoline in their engines is acceptable, although some offer special instructions if you use reformulated gasoline. You should always check your owner's manual for any specific instructions.
As a boat owner or operator, there are a number of simple things you can do if you are concerned about using reformulated gasoline in your marine engine:

Be sure that your engine is properly tuned. The best thing you can do to make sure that your boat engine will operate properly on reformulated gasoline is to have your engine set to your manufacturer's tune-up specifications. While reformulated gasoline is very similar to conventional gasoline, there are differences. However, the differences are within the normal operating range of the engine and will not be noticeable unless your engine is out of tune. An engine using reformulated gasoline will operate at its best when properly adjusted to the manufacturer's tune-up specifications.

Minimize Water Contamination. Water contamination occurs when water is introduced into the fuel tank, and can be caused by improper storage conditions at the distribution center or retail station or by accidental introduction of water during refueling.

Reformulated gasoline contains chemical oxygen additives, commonly called oxygenates. These oxygenates are either alcohols or ethers. Currently, the most common oxygenates used are ethanol, which is an alcohol, and Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (MTBE), which is an ether. By nature, alcohol tends to have a greater affinity for water than ether-based oxygenates. If a fuel containing ethanol is used under conditions where water contamination is likely to be a factor, precautions should be taken to avoid such contamination. Of course, water contamination of any fuel blend should be avoided. Many oil companies are providing, or working to provide, clear labels for gasoline pumps to let you know which oxygenate is in the reformulated gasoline you're buying. If thepump isn't labeled, ask the service station attendant for information about the additive used in their gasoline. However, if you haven't had water contamination problems with conventional gasoline in the past, you shouldn't have a problem using either type of reformulated gasoline. To avoid possible contamination problems, the following fuel precautions should always be considered in storing and operating your boat:

Use good gasoline storage management. For many years, marinas have managed their tanks to minimize the effects of water contamination and deterioration. You should do the same with the tank in your boat. When storing your boat or gasoline container, make sure that the tank or container is either completely full or completely empty.

Use a water-separating fuel filter. Where you want maximum protection, a water-separating fuel filter will provide the greatest level of protection from possible problems with water contamination. So when you replace your fuel filter, choose the water-separating type.

Check hoses for deterioration at least once a year. Newer fuel systems are expected to be unaffected by oxygenated fuels. But some manufacturers are concerned that hoses in fuel systems produced before 1980 might be more prone to damage from alcohol-oxygenated fuels. Hoses that are susceptible to alcohol damage can become brittle or soft and, over time, deteriorate. EPA recommends that you follow the manufacturer's inspection requirements, with at least an annual inspection of hoses and other rubber components exposed to fuel. Components that appear deteriorated should be replaced.
Remember that by using reformulated gasoline you are improving the air you breathe, and protecting the air for future generations.

Re: Ethanol ???
 

Ok, I didn't read the whole article but if you go to several sites including Bertram31.com, you will read about ALOT of people having to cut out their fiberglass fuel tanks. Ethanol easts into fiberglass resin and will destroy tanks in no time :eek:

Re: Ethanol ???
 

It runs leaner as well, I saw this on a car forum.


If ethanol (stoich AFR of 9) is mixed with gasoline (stoich AFR of 14.7) the resulting gas has a lower stoich AFR than 'pure' gasoline. As the fuel injection is tuned to mix a certain amount of fuel for a given amount of air, the resulting mixture would be leaner when using a fuel with lower stoich AFR.

This can be calculated:

sAFR = (%ofAdditive * sAFRadditive + (90-%ofAdditive) * sAFRgas) /100

where:
sAFR is resulting stoich AFR
%ofAdditive is amount in % of mass of additive (ethanol) mixed in
sAFRadditive is stoich AFR of additive (9 for ethanol)
sAFRgas is stoich AFR of base gasoline (14.7)

For a 10% mixture of ethanol to gasoline by mass the resulting stoich AFR is 14.13

So, for an engine that's tuned to certain AFR at a certain load and RPM on straight gas, the resulting (gasoline equivalent) AFR when running the mixture can be calculated as:

new AFR = tuned gas AFR * (gasoline stoich ratio) / blend stoich ratio

An engine tuned to 12.5 gas AFR will run at the equivalent of 13 gas AFR with a 10% ethanol blend. This is what these people were seeing.

Of course, when running in closed loop, the engine will run at 14.13 AFR instead of 14.7. O2 sensors (incl. widebands) don’t measure AFR, but Lambda. Lambda is defined as actual AFR/stoich AFR. It's a ratio. In closed loop part throttle the engine is just running at Lambda 1.0, regardless of fuel. The same would be true for other Lambda values when running closed loop at WOT using a wideband. The engine would run at the tuned Lambda and everything would be fine. Open loop systems would need to be retuned for alcohol blends though.

The bad news is that WOT fueling in the cars I have knowledge of is a form of open loop so you will be fine driving around day to day but WOT fueling will be effected, this becomes particularly inportant in Forced Induction applications.

Ok, So I guess we need to know the stoich of the old MBTE and % used or whatever the stuff is, that this ethanol is replacing.

Some more details:
http://yarchive.net/car/oxygenates.html

Chevron Gasoline Questions and Answers - Federal Reformulated Gasoline

What is reformulated gasoline?
Reformulated gasoline (RFG) is a general term for federally mandated gasoline that is specially processed and blended to reduce the emission of pollutants such as hydrocarbons, toxics, and nitrogen oxides. When compared to typical gasoline that you have used in the past, RFG reduces hydrocarbon emissions by at least 15%, according to EPA estimates. While all suppliers and marketers of RFG are required to meet federal specifications for the base product, Chevron blends RFG with our exclusive Techron® additive to ensure unbeatable performance.

Where in Chevron's gasoline marketing area is reformulated gasoline required?
RFG is currently required in California (Los Angeles, San Diego, and Sacramento), Texas (Houston and Dallas-Fort Worth), Kentucky (Louisville and Covington), Virginia (Richmond and Norfolk), and Washington, D.C.

Will I notice a change in my car's performance using RFG?
You should not notice any changes in the way your car drives as a result of using RFG. However, the introduction of RFG brings several federally mandated changes to gasoline chemistry, which raise some performance issues. These potential changes in performance affect all gasolines in an RFG regulated area and are not unique to Chevron.

RFG contains "oxygenates," which lower emissions but also produce less energy, so RFG will yield two to three percent lower mileage than non-oxygenated gasoline.


RFG will have an odor slightly different from that of conventional gasoline.


The rubber that is used in fuel system parts, such as seals and hoses, may shrink, swell, or lose strength when exposed to RFG. This reaction could cause fuel system leaks in a very small percentage of vehicles. Because RFG differs only slightly from the gasoline that you have used in the past, auto manufacturers do not expect RFG to cause fuel system leaks in the majority of vehicles, particularly newer vehicles. However, if your vehicle is older (more than 10 years old) or has high mileage (more than 100,000 miles), you may be at greater risk of developing a fuel leak. Because fuel leaks can cause vehicle fires, Chevron recommends that you consult a qualified auto repair technician to discuss whether your fuel system parts should be checked for repair or replacement. If you suspect a form of leakage, which can often be detected by smelling gasoline at times other than when fueling, consult a qualified auto repair technician immediately. Do not drive a vehicle with a fuel system leak.


All gasoline, including RFG, is very flammable and always should be used and stored with extreme care. In order to reduce pollution, RFG sold during the spring and summer is designed to evaporate less than the gasoline you have used in the past. This could cause the vapor in an RFG storage container to contain oxygen, which would make the mixture flammable at very cold temperatures (less than 20 degrees Farenheit). If you expect that you may store or use spring or summer RFG in very cold temperatures, it may be prudent to keep your storage container as full as possible to minimize vapor space, and to ensure that the container does not have sources of ignition.


During the spring, when less evaporative RFG is phased in for summer use, starting your engine may be more difficult when it is unseasonably cold because RFG, with its lower tendency to evaporate, will not ignite as easily.

Re: Ethanol ???
 

from the Virginia DEQ website:
http://www.vpcga.com/files/public/02...Memorandum.pdf

If you bother to read all this they understand that ethanol may be an issue with vehicle warranties. the answer...."We are presently researching this issue with legal counsel and will let you know as soon as we have some guidance"
Thanks for the info :rolleyes: Maybe you should have checked into this BEFORE switching.

Re: Ethanol ???
 

I have heard that only the metropolitan areas have the 10% ethanol....can anyone find the exact localities that have it and which that don't around the Richmond VA area? From what I've been told heading towards Williamsburg or Fredericksburg the stations have "regular" gas.

Re: Ethanol ???
 

I'm not sure about Richmond, but in Southern Maryland (waldorf) I saw a sticker on a pump at Wawa that stated something about boaters, and checking to make sure the "New Gas" will work, and not effect motors...

Re: Ethanol ???
 

the real problem for boaters is fiberglass gas tanks. it will brake down the inside of the tanks. if you were to look inside thru the sending unit it begins to look like corn chips floating around the bottom of the tank .and some of that also gets thru the filters and gets in the motor an causes build up in all kinds of places and engine damage. so beware of all fiberglass tanks .

Re: Ethanol ???
 

REALLY BAD NEWS for all Skater owners!!! :mad: :mad:

Re: Ethanol ???
 

you and me both i am now looking for a place to get cam 2 they use to have 94 octane and 97 i will take either one

Re: Ethanol ???
 

Not True, Every 7-11, Wawa, and many other gas stations have fiberglass tanks.

I have a 500EFI manual that says avoid storing Ethanol fuels in a boat for long periods of time as it extracts moisture out of the air over long periods of time.

E10 has it is referered to in the gas business, is an average of 10% ethanol. 87 might have 8%, 89. 9.5%, 93 12%. All gas coming down the pipe line is 83, then mixed to get the octanes. Mixing with water is the biggest problem. It still will have the same octane ratings as advertised. From what I hear, it may even be slightly higher. You have been running it for two weeks or bettter in your car. Are you having any problems?

The Areas are shown on this map
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/rfg/whereyoulive.htm

Re: Ethanol ???
 

www.ethanol.org its a really cool site tells you just about everything about ethanol.

from reading the site It looks like it would be ok to run E- 85 in boats but you would have change you carb jetting to compensate the air to fuel ratio

I'm just not sure about leaving it in an alum fuel tank though anyone know if this is ok?

Re: Ethanol ???
 

Linnie...that map is exactly what I was looking for!!!!
Here's the list of the central VA localities:
I notice New Kent is not on the list and on my way to our river house! :woohoo:

Charles City County
Chesapeake
Chesterfield County
Colonial Heights
Hampton
Hanover County
Henrico County
Hopewell
James City County Newport News
Norfolk
Poquoson
Portsmouth
Richmond
Suffolk
Virginia Beach
Williamsburg
York County

Re: Ethanol ???
 

Russ,
I plan on hauling out to Manquin or Central Garage in King William for fuel when possible.

I was in NoVA today, and gas was CHEAPER than Hanover County AND King William County. WTF?

Re: Ethanol ???
 

Water obviously can cause major problems too, as well as the rumored breakdown of plastics and fiberglass :eek: :eek: I wouldn't want to roll the dice on $100K(+) of hardware and HP :( :(

Re: Ethanol ???
 

Hey Russ I buy a lot of my fuel from a friend. I ran this fuel all last year and didn't know it. He said he didn't tell me because he knew it wouldn't make any difference. Because he ran it the year before. He sells me 89. His boat has HP 500s and it runs fine with new fuel as well. As for the big horsepower guys, I don't know how it will effect them

Re: Ethanol ???
 

I agree. if you think are rolling the dice at all, I would suggest you call the manufacturer of the product to get a warm fuzzy first hand.

All ethanol is is corn grain liquor. You can drink it if it is distilled pure enough. I think too much is being made of all this.

Re: Ethanol ???
 

I think not enough is being made of this. I guess you have never seen the damage that the ethanol is doing to the fuel tanks first hand.

Re: Ethanol ???
 

After more research I've decided I will avoid ethanol when possible, but not go out of my way to do so.
I've become less concerned about water in my tank than I have about the gum/gunk particles breaking loose inside my 9 year old fuel tank. Apparently ethanol will dislodge old deposits in there and these particles will get picked up by the fuel supply line. I WILL be replacing my normal NAPA fuel/water separating filters with a 10 micron Racor model that will also catch small particles in the fuel. If anyone is interested the model for Mercruiser BBC's I am ordering is:
B32020mam and the replacement filter element is S3220UL.
This may be overkill, but I spent sometime off the water last year due to a blown motor and don't want to chance something on <$100.00 in filters. Besides I probably should have been running this type in the past anyway.

Re: Ethanol ???
 

What kind of tanks are you talking about? Aluminum? Please elaborate on your first hand knowledge to help us along.

Re: Ethanol ???
 

Fiberglass tanks. I personally now of at least 8 boat owners who are currently changing there fuel tanks due to the problems with the ethanol eating the resin in the tanks.

Re: Ethanol ???
 

Seirra has a 10 micon spin on filter they came out with this year. I will get you the number tommorrow if interested.

Re: Ethanol ???
 

:eek: Nice :rolleyes: :rolleyes: And that resin is burnin thru those Sterling motors :mad: :hothead: Only a matter of time :( :(

Re: Ethanol ???
 

From what I've read grain alchohol is a less pure formula when in its drinkable moon shine form. It has to be even more refined with extra processes to eventually allow it to be sold/burnt in vehicles. But I get your point about same (similar) stuff that people drink.

I think a lot more research better be done before folks assume this stuff is safe to burn thru our $$$$ boats

Re: Ethanol ???
 

Please do, I'm curious to learn more....the NAPA is a 12 micron but it doesn't have a drain for the collected water. The filter element on the racor is also replacable if needed and should be bettter suited to catch suspended particles.

Re: Ethanol ???
 

The Mercury service manual adresses the issue of the fuel filter. They warn Not to add or change any fuel filters from Mercury marine products has they have been designed to operate with the total fuel system. Guessing on a better filter is rolling the dice in my opinion if you have nothing wrong currently.

As far as the tanks made of fiberglass, it must be some cheap take off or poorly manufactureded tank to have those problems. Why would a boat builder even do that? Can't afford a real tank in a 400K boat? Sounds dumb to me. I would be calling the boat builder for warranty, especially if I paid for 1200 Sterlings.

There was not a secret, that alternative fuels was not on the horizon. Ethanol, as compared to other additives, is relative mild. It is a great cleanser.

Filters that are Hydrosorb will not have drains. The material inside the filter reacts and melts to absorb the water. That is why there is not a drain. A fliter with a drain will not stop water, only allow it to collect in the bottom of the filter.

At gas stations, there are 2 concerns of dispensing ethanol gas. The #1 problem is to get all the water out of the tanks, 100%. Most tanks only pumped water off the bottom when it got 2" or greater. Now the rule is 0% or it will pull the ethanol out of the gas and turn to a black gel on the bottom of the tank.

The second concern is keeping the filters changed regularly. At the gas dispensers, under the lower doors are filters that filter the gas before it leaves the hose. They are Hydosorb style, collects any small water particles or any tank trash that got picked up. We ( VA ) have been as everyone else in the areas using ethanol gas since 4-17-06. Gas stations are changing there filters almost every day, they clog and then dispenser fuels very slow. It was advised that all gas stations have there tanks cleaned prior to recieving the first loads of ethanol gas. Many did not clean the tanks and choose to let the filters do the work. After a few weeks or more depending on how dirty the tanks were, the filters will have cleaned up the mess that was in the tanks. We are starting to see a slow down in filter changes now from the newer stations.

Re: Ethanol ???
 

If I remember correctly all gas stations had to change to fiberglass tanks to stop leaks from enter ground water.

Re: Ethanol ???
 

as far as poorly built tanks i know of 3 skaters it has happened to so far and they are built the best. boat builders just did not know what to expect. so you are rolling the dice with glass tanks good luck to us all, bad year for boating fuel prices now this. may take the year off and see what happens.

Re: Ethanol ???
 

I wouldn't actually call Skater,Hatteras,or Bertram cheap or poorly manufactured . Boat builders have been putting fiberglass tanks in boats for years with great success. The problem is with the fuel and not the boat builder. At the time these builders manufactured there boats we did not have issues with the fuel . I just feel that not enough research was done by the people in charge of putting this stuff in the fuel.

Re: Ethanol ???
 

Bingo.....The government ordered this changeover without considering the consequences... The oil companies are now removing the previous government mandated additive MTBE (Methanol) after learning (surprise!!!!) that it is a proven carcinogen...only to discover that its replacement Ethanol (a rushed solution to create clean air while appeasing corn farmers) eats everything that it comes in contact with that is either petro based plastic or rubber.....and......also.....draws water out of the atmosphere to create a pretty quick build up of contaminants.

Linster........ This is a serious problem and I speak from first person knowledge in my own boat..... (recently relaminated at the builder). In addition the in line fuel filter in a friend's Chevy Tahoe is filling repeatedly with a black substance..... since the gas stations in his area changed to 15% ethanol..... The only black item in his fuel system......back up the line....is the black plastic fuel tank....... This isn't just about boats anymore.....think about "gas leaks" in your Escalade.

The point about fibreglass tanks in gas stations is very simple. The government forced all stations with old metal tanks to replace them with fibreglass over the past 25 years or so...because the metal rusted through and leaked.....That was before they realised that Ethanol was coming. In the past 5 years or so a new ethanol resistan resin was developed to solve the problem...and that is why "old" fibreglass tanks in gas stations are being replaced by "new" ones.......

Sadfly, if you've been reading the paper.....they don't have a quick fix for the transcontinental pipelines which also spring leaks at joints and valves when ethanol is introduced into the fuel at origin....so....... the pipelines are currently carrying unblended oil products....and the ethanol is traveling by railcar, barge, and truck....right along side....

Boy! don't you just love politicians?........Unfortunately every time we have an election.......one of them wins.

T2x

Re: Ethanol ???
 

If they are built the best, why are they having fuel tank problems????? AS I said, Alternate fuels have not been any mystery for the last few years. I agree Skater makes a great hull, they just screwed up on the tank, why cant you accept that????

Same message to TomFTM

This has been on the horizon for years, why do you think there are hybreads or Hydrogen cars???

Re: Ethanol ???
 

Exactly Right. Steel tanks were the leakers from corrosion.

Re: Ethanol ???
 

Linster........ This is a serious problem and I speak from first person knowledge in my own boat..... (recently relaminated at the builder). In addition the in line fuel filter in a friend's Chevy Tahoe is filling repeatedly with a black substance..... since the gas stations in his area changed to 15% ethanol..... The only black item in his fuel system......back up the line....is the black plastic fuel tank....... This isn't just about boats anymore.....think about "gas leaks" in your Escalade.

The black is where the ethanol mixed with the water in the tank. It is a gel that is unusable. The gas floats on top of the gel. Not a gas problem, a problem of the gas station or vehicle from having water in the tank. Get rid of the water and the problems go away.




The point about fibreglass tanks in gas stations is very simple. The government forced all stations with old metal tanks to replace them with fibreglass over the past 25 years or so...because the metal rusted through and leaked.....That was before they realised that Ethanol was coming. In the past 5 years or so a new ethanol resistan resin was developed to solve the problem...and that is why "old" fibreglass tanks in gas stations are being replaced by "new" ones.......

Not exactly right. Steel tanks are still installed today with a Fiberglass or Expoxy exterior coating. They are still 50% of all new tanks being installed today.

Re: Ethanol ???
 

Boy! don't you just love politicians?........Unfortunately every time we have an election.......one of them wins.

Hope you don't mind....I'm gonna use that quote!

Re: Ethanol ???
 

Russ,

Not the politicians, The EPA!

Re: Ethanol ???
 

please!!!! boat companies are just starting to fix the problem. skater and other top builders now have their hands full, if they new what to use on the tanks that would work with ethanol the would have.so now they are being built. to with stand ethanol. maybe time will tell

Re: Ethanol ???
 

Linster:

the bottom line is that if the government....politicians and political appointees...had done some homework...and realised that there are a lot of items in the fuel pipeline from origin to end user that would be harmed by Ethanol...a caustic substance.... and created a long term plan with appropriate warnings and an allowance for a non ethanol blend for vehicles unable to use it.... We would not have this mess.

It seems to me that blaming small businesses like boat manufacturers for not using the specific resin..... that was developed for ethanol applications ( and marketed to the gas station/petroleum industry quietly.....but not the boating industry)...in spite of the fact that very few people realised the stuff even existed....is a bit simplistic....... and unrealistic...given that this was an unexpected, nationwide phenomenon..... (Skater conducted numerous tests for many fuels, additives, and beverage fluids over the years...including red wine....but excluding corn alcohol -ethanol...and found no degradation).

By the way the black substance i mentioned was very stringy.... and regardless of whether it came from the tank itself...or a mix of water....it sure can't do an engine any good......

It is obvious that modifications need to be made to engine fuel systems, FUel metering settings in EFI, fuel tanks, fuel stabilizers for winter storage, gas stations, pipelines, blending hardware at refineries, and, I'm sure, other items that neither of us is familiar with.

Or.....we can sit back and say ...it's "overblown" and wait until we smell gasoline dripping out of our lawnmower/snow blower/chain saw/Toyota.....etc.

T2x

Re: Ethanol ???
 

WELL SAID!!!!

Re: Ethanol ???
 

Yes. indeed, very well said.

I have a question. Did GM , Mopar , Ford or any other car manufacture recall and lower the compression ratio in all of there 60's and early 70's muscle cars when we could only get 93 pump gas? . Didn't these major car manufactures know that only lower octane fuel would be available in a few years.

Re: Ethanol ???
 

Read this article if you think this is some new idea. This idea was passed in 1988. The Government has done plenty of homework with Manufacturers, Oil Producers, EPA, and state goverments. The boat manufacturers that are having problems did not do there homework. This has been in the pipeline for almost 20 years.

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/specia...4/article.html

Quote:
Ethanol, a renewable fuel produced from corn and other crops, is already in over 15 percent of the gasoline sold in the United States. Most often it is blended with gasoline to produce a fuel that is 5-10-percent ethanol.

Quote:
A 10-percent blend, called E10, is most common and is required in all gasoline sold in Hawaii, Minnesota and Montana, while a dozen other states are currently considering enacting similar mandates. Because all vehicles sold in the U.S. are made to run on ethanol blends up to E10, the only way to tell you are using a low-level ethanol blend is by checking the label on the pump when you refuel, although not all states require such labeling.

E85 is 85% Ethanol, 15% Gas. Over 5 Million Vehicles in use
Quote:
If you own one of the 5 million E85-capable vehicles, fueling with E85 is not only beneficial to the environment, you'll most likely see a small increase in performance, which will be accompanied by a small decrease in fuel economy. On average, when flexible fuel vehicles are powered by E85, the vehicles have about 5-percent more horsepower and a 10-percent drop in fuel-efficiency. The added power comes from ethanol's higher octane rating (ranging from 100-105). The fuel economy decrease comes from the fact that ethanol has a lower energy content than gasoline, which means you have to use more of it.

I feel for all the Boat Owners with problems. I do not have any sympathy for the builders who have issues and want to blame someone else to avoid a warranty. The Builders need to step up to the plate and Warranty there problems and make it right to the customers.