HTM Mishap
 

Does anybody have any more info on the accident that happened to the HTM at Lake Castaic?

Past posts where?
I was wondering the same thing. The boat has been up for some time now. I know it got a little tense (rightfully so) over in the HotBoat forum about speculation, second geussing and just plane lack of respect in some cases. Not looking for rumors but there must be new info out there.

I'm just having a tough enough of time trying to imaging the forces involve to rip an engine out. Mind boggling.

Do we really want all the info.????
I'm not so sure :rolleyes:

Why wouldn't we?

Jim..I don't know why yet..I have read alot of different things about the crash and most are probably just rumors..I just would hate to see such a terrible accident turn in to some kind of scandle that would hurt the names of the dead or living people or the boat manufacture for that matter...The fact for right now is that they are dead and that is gonna take the families some time to get over it..My point ..???..I don't know

Do you thing we will really know .... all the news reports have the estimated speed at the time of the accident around 80mph ... :rolleyes: ... I may be wrong but looking at the events of the day before ...

Supercrash, I understand... I thought about that when I read that they had homicide detectives on the case. Hope that's just SOP. When people die from accidents related to what we all do, we want to know what happened to minimize the possibility of it happening to us.

Cigarette 1:
I wouldnt think we would ever get anything of substance or fact from the media. I do believe they (investigators) are going to be looking to experts (some maybe on this board) as to what may or may not fail on our boats. Im sure they are going to want a fiberglass shop to look at the damage.

Tantrum, I certainly hope so.

Seems like all the media articles have some mention of the 35 mph speed limit.

A fellow boater up here lost his wife in a tragic accident a while ago. The reporter did not even investigate enough to find out that the deceased was the wife of the driver, claimed the driver was speeding,(no speed limit where this occured and he was only going 65mph), and also had to nail down his ignorance by stating that none of the occupants were wearing seatbelts. What ever happened to investigative journalism?

Just another quick thought. I dont know if anyone knows what the future of HTM as a business is going to be, but if they continue on (I hope they do) there are going to be interested parties that want to know what happend.

Just to let you guys know, investigations like this can take a loooooong time. Don't be expecting any type of answers any time soon.

And just a comment on the 35 MPH speed limit on castaic lake. It's NEVER enforced. Don't know how many of you have ever been to that lake, but it's also a "dry" lake i.e. no alcohol. Yea right!! they party in the back narrows every weekend. And heres a big suprise about that lake. You're not supposed to swim in it!! :eek: You'd never know it though by all the people wake boarding skiing and generally swiming in the lake. Talked to the life gaurds direct on that. They have just never enforced it.

So I think the speed limit thing is really a mute point except it would be nice to know how fast they were traveling just out of curiosity.

Tank

supercrash - Personally, I believe its critical we find out what happened. I understand, like Tank says, its going to take a long time. But I can only think of one thing more tragic than the accident - that's if one of us goes out and dies for the same reason - needlessly!

I will be patient and wait. I want to show the proper respect for the grieving families, but I am very eager to find out what actually happen so I don't end up doing the same thing. For example, do you any of you know what happens at speed if one of your engines (or drives) quits? I was thinking I am going to go out and start at a slow speed and turn off one engine to see what happens. Maybe start at only 35 mph and work up in 5 mph increments? If I am doing 90 mph and loose an engine, how much time do I have to react before I am out of control?

Hey uncle...leave the investigation to the pros..I see what your saying about safety..and we do need to hear somethings..But if it comes back that they were speeding at more than double the limit and they had no vests and no seats in the boat..and put other people in danger then you can see how that might needlessly tarnish their memories...But Yes there are safety issues at stake that need to be answered..

Uncle Toys,
I think the real problem is if a prop were to lock up. Sieze the motor or break a drive in a way that the prop locks and drags, no free spin.
A member of NJPPC and OSO poster broke a drive in a single engine V. I would think he was doing low to mid 80's and said it was very squirly and an unsettleing expierience. Maybe he will tell us about it..
I would think in a cat, where the engines are spread wide apart, and the boat having less water contact at speed....well many factor could amplify the result.
Be careful testing yours, I would want to know the same if I had one.

Tank-O-Ramma

I've been stopped on that lake for speeding, twice. Not ticketed, but stopped and asked if I knew what the limit was. I said, yep ....it's 35. And how fast were you going? I told him 55. He goes, well, that's faster isn't it......slow it down a little.

:eek: :eek:

My Engineering mind has a few gears turning. And being a cat owner I know the dangers involved with going fast, not as fast as this boat was capable of, but...

In thinking about the forces involved, a motor is mounted high on the stringers, which are wood and glass covered and the motors center of gravity is fairly high, The motor mounts are attached at the upper portion of the stringers, or the weakest point of the stringer. Now in a turn, a cat turns flat, and inertia want to make everything go straight, and if the boat skipped, the motors weight could have snapped the stringer, and sent it out the side of the boat, also causing a loss of power suddenly to one of the props, further compounding the problems, I've skipped my cat around a corner, it jars you prettty hard, and it's possible the stringer let loose, It seems entirely possible, for a senario like this to be possible. Horrible tragety, and my condolences go out to all the families and friends involved. The physics of a v-hull leaning into a turn keep the jar of the boat vs. the weight of the motor headed in a downward direction, there has to be people with inboard cats experiencing striger problems similar, anyone know of anything similar, or anyhting about how the motors were mounted in the htm? I'm as curious as the rest of you to see what the investigators may find. Sorry to speculate, but I wanted to see if anyone else was thinking along these lines.

[ 02-04-2002: Message edited by: advantage_ROB ]

Uncle Toys,

While I think it is important to know what happens to a boat when one motor shuts down at speed, etc, I would advise against your proposed "test". Especially in a catamaran. Having owned one and experiencing slight loss of power in one engine, I can tell you that it WILL cause the boat to become extremely unsettled and may cause it to hook in extreme cases.

My Shadow was not all that fast and I have been on several Skaters while testing and in all cases and at all speeds this id a dangerous situation to be in.

My advice, ask the pros, don't try it on your own...especially with others in the boat or on semi crowded lake, etc.

Sean

I don't know if would be the same on twin I/0's, but I lost a gearcase on my last boat which was rigged with twin 2.5's. The boat was a DCB Mach 26 and we were running about 90 mph when it happened. The boat, probably because of the dual ram full hydraulic steering, continiued to track straight. I was able to keep the boat on plane with the other motor and drive it back to the marina. Just my experience, I know all boats are different.

Hey Sean, thanks for the advice - points well taken. I would love to learn from experience, rather than go out and get the experience - I hope the pros wade into our discussion. However, I have a responsibility to those who ride with me. If there is a certain speed above which our ride becomes catastrophic in the event of mechanical failure, then its my duty to know that speed - and stay under it. I've got a couple more quite months at the lake to work on this. When I taught flying we would take planes up and "push the envelope," but always with a large margin of safety and never with passengers.

HavasuCat - Thanks for sharing your experience.

HI Havasu Cat,

Generally an outboard prop shaft will "ratchet" when it is shut down, or at least that has been my experience, where an I/O will not.

saw powerboating today on speed vision. they had HTM and testing the 24's. they were talking to steve & ken. kinda wierd! you figure they might pull that episode.

It would be interesting to know if the props were spining in rather than out. That should be easy to see in a photo.

It could be as simple as that.

I spoke with Lia the other day, and she assured me that HTM is going to continue on.

RonP - What do you mean, it could be as simple as the props spinning in vs. out?

We discussed this at great length in a post from T2x a few months back.

If you think about the forces generated by spining a prop you'll realize that if you spin the props in, during a turn, the inside prop will want to walk the stern into a spinout. With the props spinning out, the inside prop wants to prevent the stern from swinging out.

The outside prop my have less bite during a turn to couteract these forces.

Spinning props inward can make a well behaved boat seem out of control. The myth is that spinning in gives more stern lift and a higher speed.

Catmando,
I do engineering and testing and alot of structural type failures, tests, impact forces, always finding the weakest point and strengthing it and finding the next weekest point so I'm really just shooting from the hip, but to tell wether a motor came loose first, or the boat flipped first will be part of the investigation. I'm just getting to the possibility that the stringer set-up on all cat's may need to be re-thought to deal with lateral forces encountered in turns as well, such as boxing the stringers near motor mount areas to the sides of the boat would strengthen this area, but take out room for installation, ect... if this was the case??? Time and investigation will tell, but thru failure, comes improvement, just sad to see the price in this case. And I hope the findings are made available to the rest of the manufacturing community where the other OEM's can review thier practices.

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: advantage_ROB ]

Ron P - Thanks, I tried to search for that thread but couldn't find it. I tried under T2x's threads and still couldn't find it. Do you remember the title of the thread? Appreciate the help, this is something I want to learn more about.

I've eaten 5 or so drives on my old race Skater. And the new owner blew the intermediate housing and lower right off the back at over 100. The boat would just continue straight each time. The one time the lower locked up, the shaft just sheered and the prop was tumbling behind the boat for 100 feet.

DanL - Thanks, I really appreciate the information. When you eat a drive like that, what exactly happens in the water? Does the prop stop spinning or does it windmill? When you say it just continued straight each time, was there much the driver had to do to keep it going straight? What was the fastest speed it happened to you at? And to go back to what RonP was talking about, were your props turning in or out?

Really appreciate your time - thanks!

Uncle Toys, and anyone else who would like to read turning "In" vs "out", look under "Great moments in Cat History" starting on page 3, T2X posted on this subject, and GJL, "Mr. George Linder",
Philip
» Great Moments in Cat History (Page 3

my first memory is that the tach pegs and I pulled the throttles back and the boat just settles in the water. We ran the engines pretty high and there is alot of aerodynamic influence so the loss of propulsion from one side was negligible. The boat never tried to hook or turn hard. On the twin cats, I never turned my props in. At high speed, the thing was all over the place. One thing of note is that 2 Skaters, a 24 and a 32, 2 vs 3 outboards, the 24 was always faster in the smoother water and the 32 was faster in the 3-4 footers, but not because of waterline, which does make a difference in real sloppy conditions. The 24 would accelerate harder in the smooth stuff, but because of the 3 props on 32, it hooked up harder on re-entry and would gallop a boat length at a time as you sawed the throttles.

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: DanL ]

I brought it back to the top for you and others to read. It was probably one of the most interesting threads on this board.

Here is the answer to your question from T2x.
====================================

Ron P.--My thoughts on "spinning" in..... Simple physics.... Right hand rotation propellers,torque (lean) the boat to the left. Left hand rotation propellers torque the boat to the right. In a twin engine boat spinning outboard or , RH on right side, LH on left, the torque of the propellers tends to return the boat to level when one side or the other leans outward. When props are spun inboard RH on left, LH on right, or counter rotated the torque tends to make the lean worse. This occurs because as a boat(Cat or Vee) leans to one side, the prop on that side buries deeper and exerts more force, while the prop on the other side rises (in some cases out of the water) and exerts less force. So...... If a RH prop is spinning on the right side of a boat leaning to the right, the prop tends to push the hull back over to the left. (spinning Outboard). If, however, the left hand prop is on the right side in a right hand lean , the prop tends to continue to roll the boat over. I submit that this is why there has been such a dramatic increase in barrel rolls (even in straight-aways) in races in recent years. When I flew over races for 16 years, I could always spot the counter rotated boats, because they behaved very differently (and definitely not better)than their properly spun (outboard rotation) competitors.
The reason that many people spin them "backwards" is the fact that on some hulls the boat may gain a mile or two per hour at top speed....or..... the boat has a bottom tune that needs more bow lift. The speed can generally be achieved in other ways without using an unnatural rotation as a "bandaid" (This is particularly problematical on stepped bottom boats that skid first, then catch suddenly, then roll outward......get the picture?)
One can re-tune most bottoms to add rocker to provide bow lift without resorting to ill advised prop rotation changes.

Counter rotation is adviseable on SINGLE engine race boats when the courses change from counter-clockwise to clockwise. LH props like right turns and handle better, RH props like left turns. Since the Bravo drive allows for a simple flick of a lever to reverse rotation, one would expect that Factory 1 racers would have a supply of left and right props depending on the course ....... up until this year most F1 racers don't...... I guess nobody has "invented" this yet.

It's T2x....NOT "Tx2" please

DanL,
I have found the 32' (2) engine is faster then the 28' (2) engine, in the rough due to the tunnel height and length, never had 3rd engine on the 32' to compare 2 vs 3. Always spun the props out except one day. Next day went back to spinning out.
Philip

Props do not generate equal thrust at each blade at all positions in rotation. The descending blade generates greater torque but the ascending blade exerts more thrust. In aviation its called p factor.

Having worked several actual homocide cases, I can tell you that most of the information the police will look at will come from the Medical Examiner, or Coroners Office. An attempt to determine cause of death will be made. Unless there is evidence of foul play ie. gunshot wound, witness account of an explosion, etc., there wont be much more to investigate. The "Homocide" Investigators the press reffered to may be nothing more than an Investigator for the Medical Examiners office looking over the scene prior to putting their signature on a report. The press likes to use words like "Homocide" and "murder"...even when they dont apply. Dont read to much into it. It only takes one stupid rumor to make this harder on the friends and family of those lost.

This boat did come with full hyd. steering as standard equipment. To the helm.

If you don't have it to the helm please find out what can happen if you throw a power steering belt off while running. Everyone should be aware of this danger and keep a close eye on your ps belt and the pulley alignments.

I know it may be apples/oranges but i have a video of a kilo run at 130mph plus--1 tranny blew-up--the boat reacted violently--they did save it but barely--it was a 388 slingshot--john

L.A. County Sheriffs Dept. (who is investigating this accident) Will commonly send actual Homocide detectives to situations like this until it can be determined no foul play occurred. All they will learn from the coroners office is cause of death i.e. blunt force trauma and/or drowning. In a situation like this it is probable that they will look into why the motor came out of the motor mounts and look into the lay up of the boat to further determine foul play and/or liability. I can assure you the insurance companies and lawyers will be looking into this aspect of the investigation. But until the Sheriff's dept. finds convincing evidence that there was no foul play involved, Homocide investigators will be investigating this accident. That is normal for L.A. Co. Sheriffs Dept.

Tank