Performance Boating school
 

I was looking at one of the performance boating school links and saw that at no time would a student be allowed to drive a boat because of insurance reasons. My questions is are there any schools out there that allow the students to apply what they learn under the direction of a teacher. I know boating can be dangerous but you can pay 1600.00 dollars and go to a 2 day course to run a comp or super gas car running 8.90 over 130 mph. Just curious
K

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Different deal. cars dont sink.Just think, your a teacher and you allow one student to drive your boat, he quickly cuts the wheel all the way at 80 MPH, you and the student get tossed with injuries, your only school boat gets the drives ripped off the back and the side of the boat caves in,class is over, and so is the possibly of getting liability insurance. Not mention you cant teach class without your boat, if you ever come out that coma and fuild in your lungs, and if you do, his wifes Attorney is waiting to serve for the loss of her husband. Gee whiz. I wish it was easy but its not. I conducted class today and They will be on the water tommorrow.Ask them how they like the class.www.performanceboatschool.com

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Try this one www.rossoffshoreracing.com. I talked to them down at the Fountain race and I think they do training in your boat.I understand Tres feelings though but sometimes its hard to learn without doing.I was fortunate to have a Friend who has raced and been around boats all his life take me out in his boat.He did let me run it and I learned a lot.
He also taught me the theory behind how stepped-hulls work which is extremely important Good Luck

Re: Performance Boating school
 

I allow them to run their boat in a after class secsion but never with other students aboard.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

I was just curious about the diffrent liabilities. I found out that some of the drag racing schools the student would be responsible to damage done to car or motor depending on the situation. Wasnt trying to knock anything just was curious
k

Re: Performance Boating school
 

I've asked this same question, and have been somewhat suprised at the answer myself.

It seems a ridiculous way of teaching, more so when you see that the class is sometimes run on a lake.

How do you guys learn to drive a car? Do you sit next to the instructor with him showing you the correct way to drive, and then only get behind the wheel after you've passed the test, probably not I reckon.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

There are a lot of us that have run in the ocean and have a pretty good idea how to handle their boat. But it's nice to hear the way a professional would handle the waves and the boat. I could learn a lot just sitting and listening while someone else piloted the boat.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Personally I believe there is value in both class & practical instruction.

I've not attempted to start a boating school nor secure liability insurance for one but there are plenty of drag racing, road racing & oval track schools out there for both cars & motorcycles that have students & instructers on the track at the same time w/ as much or more at risk since a racetrack is much smaller arena to operate in than the open water.

It's Tres Martin's school so they can run it how they see fit but I would be very interested in a high perf boating school that offered practical experience too.

Just my $.02!

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Hey Guys,

The school curriculum is using the most efficient instructional methods to achieve the desire outcomes. It isn’t about running it as we see fit but more about finding a practical way to transfer needed knowledge to performance boat owners.

The ability to find appropriate insurance is and will continue to be difficult. Notice I said appropriate… Having the instructors and all the students as named insured is as I’m sure you could imagine not practical or attainable.

The bottom line is the students are leaving the current course with some extremely powerful skills to which they can employ on their own in appropriate settings and times. The course critiques continue to be amazing, ask anyone who has attended for their first hand opinion.

I would go on to tell you, as a person who has and continues to instruct students both in vessel operation and vessel inspection there are other individuals who poses the skill sets required to operate performance boats, but only one I know of who has the presence, dedication, and proper motivation to transfer that knowledge to others.

I have done performance based training at just about every Coast Guard School there is including advanced ship simulators and it was the demonstration of proper skills I walked any with and then employed and practiced upon my return to my duty station which improved by ability. If I kept driving a motorlife boat like I did at Lifeboat School in Ilwaco I would have killed someone.

The lake environment offers a completely accessible and better controlled operating environment than a crowded open ocean with complications of weather and rough inlets. Additionaly this is not meant to be drivers- ed but more advanced skill training. Sure there are new boaters coming but if you want basic training then we highly encourage everyone to take a local boating safety course offered at low or no charge, they will teach basic safety, operation, and how to tie lines.


Brad Schoenwald

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Maybe a calmer environment, but better controlled than "crowded" "open" ocean...... ya lost me for a second. never associated the open ocean as crowded.

I agree condition wise though.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Your right... The open ocean is just that. My current mental image is my boating back yard as the entire Fort Lauderdale/Miami area is extremely contact heavy offshore and as such not the best site for instruction.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

I would imagine you would have to be a USCG certified captain to teach any type of boating skills. This is basically hiring out a boat for a charter which I know requires liability insurance and a USCG license. I'm sure their are many people out there with the skills but without the proper paperwork it doesn't mean much to an insurance company.

The idea is a good one as many boaters have the funds to purchase a boat but most do not have the skills to run it safely at the current speed an quarters such as a poker run.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

You do not have to be a USCG certified captain to teach. You must poses at least an OUPV "Six Pack" if you operate for hire on a navigable waterway. I am a Active Duty Coast Guard Warrant Officer and work as a Marine Inspector dealing with commercial operations from small inspected charter boats to cruise ships and I can tell you since the Coast Guard farmed out lower level licensing to third parties the competency and value of these licenses has dropped significantly. I also maintain a 100t Masters License for continuity and recentcy.



The insurance companies have learned to look well beyond the paper on the wall and find real solutions which mitigate risk and provide tangible value to the policy holders.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

One can learn alot just from listening to those whom have done!
I have seen many people who chose not to take the time to listen at all, and a few of those have ended up wet or even hurt.

These new classes are designed to teach through example. Allowing the students to sit, watch, listen and learn as opposed to attempt to controll and learn at the same time.
I hold a commercial Pilots licences with some respectable endorsments behind it. I have learned the most from classrooms and cockpit example type teaching, i.e., an instrucor flying while explaining what the situation is and what he/she is doing to controll or correct it. Sure its more fun to drive the vehicle yourself, but that limits the amount of learning while controlling.
Let the instructor teach as you learn, and then go teach yourself as applied knowladge in your own boat in safe conditions. This creates a safer more knowladgable driver... and than is the point of taking these courses
(I would think).

I am pushing the idea of people taking these classes when they purchase boats from my showroom. They are great for our entire industry.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Surprises me that many of the high end manufactures do not offer an inside teaching platform of offer to pay for their new owner to go to a performance oriented learning center such as Tres' or alike.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Cig3,

Manufacturers don't offer it because they're afraid of liability. If I, Mr. Cigarette, take you out and teach you, and then you have a crash I'm afraid you'll sue me. Or your heirs will sue me. After all, you said I was good to go. You even trained me. Now I'm dead. And that must be your fault. So you owe my family a lot of money.

That's the society in which we live. No good deed shall go unpunished.

Wellcraft actually tried a driving program with its Scarab line. It had legendary instructors such as John Connor. And it failed. Yes, it was expensive, but a week at South Seas Plantation is expensive ... without daily high-performance boating instruction. So obviously such a program could be created and is insurable, at least it was at the time.

The Wellcraft program had hands-on and classroom instruction with the best of the best. Other students were, in fact, in the boats with other students driving. But Wellcraft is a mighty big company. Talented as he is, Tres Martin doesn't have Wellcraft's bank. So he does what he does within the parameters of being a one-man show, and he's doing some good.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Actually some manufactures have jumped aboard, and some dealers. Outerlimits offers our class to every boat owner to lower the liability for the company. And this means they really care about the customer. This is the last free thing you can still do in this world.You cant freely drive a motorcyle or car at 150 anywhere. I am only here to preserve what is left. Later the manufactures, boat dealers, repair shop etc. will be thankful that this will still be around. Too many people think this is a class like driving school like you go to when you get a ticket. Some enter my class because the insurance companies force them in. So the attitude when getting there is "Lets just get this over with" once in the class they soon find out its quite fun, and they find they have been making many mistakes on the water. They really have a different outlook after going.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Thanks.Its not a one man show for long. Brad is now a important part of this project. Soon there is going to be a big announcement. Stay tunned.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

I guess my question is what is the difference between a performance boating class & a Petty Driving Experience, BMW Driving School offered by BMW or a Kevin Schwantz Superbike School when it comes to liability? They teach you things that one can certainly apply to their street riding or driving and obviously operate profitably (or they wouldn't be so many schools in business all over the country) w/ the same or greater risk certainly based on the #'s of people that take their courses. I'm sure they get sued in fact I know of several deaths involving students while attending the schools. Does the # of boats & insured contributing to the boat insurance pool versus the far many more cars & insured contributing to the auto insurance industry have anything to do w/ Tres Martins ability to secure a policy that would allow more student participation?

Re: Performance Boating school
 

At the end of the day, too many say I already know how to drive. I dont need school. Just as I thought before I took motorcycle safety course.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

I used to have a CFI certificate. Demonstrating is a great way of teaching. The student needs to also have Dual Given in his own Aircraft, or Boat, to get familiar with the idiosyncrasies of that equipment. Classroom and observation are really only the first part of training. An instructor in your own boat should follow.

John

Re: Performance Boating school
 

That certainly was never my attitude towards any course I took electively or required.

And you didn't really answer my question, how are other types of motorsports able to provide hands on training but the boating industry can not? Or is it chooses not to?

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Having taken Tres class in April I can say to me it was well worth it for me.
I contacted Tres about doing a class in Wa., found some other boaters in the area looking to take the class, and offered my boat up for the class. Not only did I learn many things that I didn't know about the handling charactoristics of stepped hulls, and cats, But I watched Tres apply these principles in MY boat.
After the class Tres made some observations about the handling charactoristis of my boat, helped me with a few minor set up changes, and now it rides like a totaly different boat.
In the past when I got to about 87 mph, it was a white knuckle ride, that would force you to slow, or trim in after about 15 seconds. Now I'm cruising at 90mph as long as I want, with best speed to date of 92mph.
The knowledge I learned in the class was well worth the money. Having Tres help with the set up of my boat was a added bonus, that far exceeds the price of his class.
Until you take the class don't knock it, and if you looking for more personal instructions in your boat, offer it up for a class, or see if you can hire Tres for a one on one class. I'm sure anything is possible for the right price.

Thanks Tres for a safe and fun boating season.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Think of the logistics and costs involved compared to the other forms of motorsports. I've learned a ton by listen to and watching an experienced driver and then going out and practicing what I see and hear on my own. I would not want to jepordize someone else or their property while I'm learning where the edge is on operating a powerboat. I fully understand and back Tres position on this topic.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Never said that was your additude and sorry if you took it that way. You spin out a car, it still there. You drop a bike , its still there. You spin a boat, more than likely it sinks and people get serious injuries because you cannot wear restaint harness. cost of boat replacemant far exceeds car or bike replacement. Insurance for those companies is likely very high. In our case for boats if we tried to do that , No company would even entertain insuring you.Furthermore the fees for raising the sunk vessel and possible eviorment issues such as oil and fuel floating in the water. Besides, the cars and bikes over the years cannot travel any faster on the road ways because of speed limits. On the other hand boats can travel at unrestricted speeds, so in the quest for speed on hull designs, the handling today is comprimised. the boats today take much more skill to operate. In the real world, it is easy to get into trouble with todays boats , but not in today cars because they handle so well.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

I understand where Tres is at. He knows all the facts in dealing with a Perf. school.

I have not heard anyone that took his class say it wasn't worth it. Maybe there are a few but you can't please everyone.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Everyone so far has been very pleased. Check out the new issue of Speddboat Mag.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

I have been thinking about this.Yes you can drive the car at a racing school..but most people have a least a few years driving experience before they go.A high performance boat is not like driving a car its probably closer to flying a plane
Lets give Tres a break on this.And Tres do you know if Total Dollar insurance extends any discount if you class is taken.??

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Guys,

Anything is insurable (almost). It's just a matter of the premium you're willing to pay. When Wellcraft ran its high-performance driving school with 33 Scarabs, I think the cost of the course was about $8,000 per person. ( I recall reading articles on it in Poker Runs America and Powerboat.) Granted, that included lodging and meals, but the course ran, if I recall, five days. Do the math and anyway you look at it, it ain't cheap.

I'm guessing that Wellcraft barely, and I mean barely, covered its costs. I'm also guessing that a lot of those costs were related to insurance. Ultimately, the course failed and was discontinued. They couldn't get enough people to do it. It wasn't for lack of teaching talent, that's for sure. Maybe it had something to do with cost.

Could Tres get that kind of insurance? Maybe he could, but the costs would be ludicrous (and he isn't Wellcraft). So he does what he does, very well, in his boat at the wheel, and then works with drivers in their own boats with them at the wheel, if I'm reading this right.

It sure seems to me that a lot of people are satisfied with what they got for whatever Tres' course cost. And from what they're saying, they're better drivers for it. Can't argue with that.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Thanks for the support. I just dont want to see powerboating become a thing we used to do. Its in big trouble right now, and many just dont know it. Each person that makes his way through our course, we feel thats one more out there doing it right.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

I think its great what you are doing! The next time you are up here in Rhode Island, Maybe at Outerlimits. Please call me!
I would be glad to take your course. I will provide the cat.


Thanks
Gerry
Millennium
401-255-5242

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Economics. Performance driving schools, where you use their race cars, have many more people taking them and make much more money so they can cover the liability. Plus its on a closed race track.
I have done the following schools
Pocono stock car experience, where i drove a stock car at 180-185mph.
Team Pro-Motion Motorcycle track school
STT motorcycle track school
And Tres Martins high performance boat school.

In the others I was either riding my own bike, or driving their car, but i learned much more from Tres' class.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Just came back from taking Tres' class over the weekend and I have to say that it was one of the best $2500 that I have ever spent for me and my boat. He covers many topics during the class that I would not never thought of and may never know. I now know what to look out for when running my boat, especially in dangerous sistuations.. I also learn the proper way to run my boat. So many thing to practice in the few next weekends. I also understand his posistion about not allowing student to drive the boat; it is for the safety of both. There are many thing to learn by just observing how he drives and how he always has control of his boat. I would highly recomemd his class to everyone.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Quick question does he take you out and air the boat out or are you on calm water not getting the drives free :( for that kind of money for 2 days I would want a hardcore lesson to see if there was something I was missing after all these yrs. :D I feel when it's flat its easyer to drive a boat compared to running in water that you have to crack the throttles just right to keep the boat level and not stuff it :eek: or do you have a choice on what water you want to ride on??

Re: Performance Boating school
 

First. I dont teach throttle jockey lessons. I do teach proper prcedure to acknowledge setting to navigate you way through all water conditions. Teaching someone hardcore lessons in rough water is very risky and no insurance would be available. I do not want to see people out there punishing the equiptment and putting themselves in danger. And yes , you have been missing alot over the years. AIR TIME. if your looking for airtime you should fly planes, boats are made to operate in the water, not in the air.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Tres, good article in SpeedBoat mag Nov 06.

Now I don't have to take the class, all your secrets are posted in the mag :evilb:

Re: Performance Boating school
 

I must have read it three times already.

I gotta get this guy on my boat.

Then again why would someone in a nice warm place
like FL wanna come up here to Rhode Island and freeze
there AZZ off.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

The south Florida mail must be getting delayed because I just got my issue of Speedboat and read the Tres article. Absolutely a must take class for me, many things the article highlights I have never considered, such as the equalization of displacement between steps.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

Try calling Brian Ross at 1-866-760-3212. If no one answers just leave a message.

www.rossoffshoreracing.com

The Ross's will be able to help anybody.

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks from Geo.

Re: Performance Boating school
 

I've heard your rates will increase....as you will most likely now be driving your boat much faster and possibly consider moving to Florida and start racing! :D :D

Tres has helped several folks that I know. One specifically that we all stayed FAR away from when he was driving his boat. He now does much, much better.... I won't say more as not to embarrass him.

Thanks, Tres!