active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

i currently have a 1998 37 ol single step and i was looking at a new 37 active thunder, but i heard they are squirley due to the one big step, anyone have any opinions on the ride in big water, handeling or quality of the active thunders compared to what i have??

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

Best test ride I ever had was given by Pat in a demo AT. Semi-rough 3-4's like a washing machine. Boat had 496's and ran mid-70's like it was on rails. My girl can be a little squirrelly in rough water but she thought it was great.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

Planing hull design is a fairly black art, but I'd be surprised if one step resulted in bad handling. Steps have been around for over a hundred years, and single steps are the most stable.

The big double step of the big Fountains are kinda a special optimization (increases aspect ratio of lifting surface while still giving focused lift just forward of CG like a proper single step).

The reason the Skater V hulls are faster is due to stiffer construction, not design. The Skater design is clearly worse, as are the other way-too-many-step designs like the newer OL. If it was better, you'd see it in the Kilo records.

How many airplanes do you see with more than 2 foils? Each step is like another lifting surface (foil). If it was better, we'd see planes with a series of wings sticking out the sides. Its not better, its far, far worse.

Early stepped hulls (used to be called hydroplanes) sometimes had as many steps as OLs, and were called shingled hulls. They sucked severely. They porpoised, bucked, spun. Kinda like OLs today. The ones that worked best had one step.

One day, someone built a boat where the front step was split, put on each side, and the modern three point hydroplane appeared, and still dominates today.

What's the fastest single engine V hull ever tested by any boating Magazine? Howard Bullet. Single step. Handles perfectly by all accounts.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

Anytime your around and want a ride in my A/T let me know.You will be surprised by the ride at 50-100mph.
My AT should be at miami show in the water so let me know.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

I've ridden in a 37' quite a few times (I have a 1990 Cafe). I have to say it is different than other boats I've ridden in, most of which are straight V's. For one thing, you don't use the tabs. The way the back of the hull is angled keeps the bow down without them. It's a little un-nerving to me in the rough stuff, because there's no way to get the bow up. I also noticed that when crossing boat wakes they tend to "catch" and swing the bow around.

But they ride very level, and they're fast for the HP you put in them. I wouldn't hesitate to own one.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

The boat is NOT SQUIRLEY ONE BIT!!!!!

Quite the contrary actually.

The original stepped 37AT had a 5 inch step. It could have handled better, and hence the bottom was altered to improve the handling. That boat is still out there with a happy owner. That step was bevelled off a bit, and blueprinted.

With the large single step under the AT, it turns PERFECTLY every single time. You can take it to the bank that at 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90+ mph, it will always pivot on that step. This is probably very similar to how your single step OL handles. When you talk about twin, triple, and even more steps... sometimes; depending on load, fuel, passengers, water, speed, and the gravitational pull of the flux capacitor :D, the boat will pivot on a different step than you expect it too, and this is how multiple step bottoms often get out of shape and worse.

A person doing the wrong thing can get any boat out of shape. However, ask Tres Martin or Docmanrich37 about the 80mph 180* turn that Tres pulled with Rich's boat during the the HP School that Tres teaches. I don't plan to try it in my 37AT. I definately would not try it in another boat. But I like the fact that I know my boat is capable of such.

Here is a recap of the 37AT in the Chicago Poker Run:
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...d.php?t=135904

Please let me know if I can be of more assistance.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

But they ride very level, and they're fast for the HP you put in them. I wouldn't hesitate to own one.[/QUOTE]

I'm glad you said that Steve.Now buy mine so we'll both be happy. :D :D

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

Oh: one other example. The Extreme 39 started out with steps that were widely separated like on Formulas. They had serious high speed handlign problems. Changed the bottom to be more like fountain (moved the aft step forward, much closer to the other step) and they seem to work better now.

The wide separation of steps is probably the reason Formulas are slower than Fountains.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

have you talked to Pat about the 43 that is on the way? should be a killer boat!!! :cool:

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

I have a couple hundred hours combined in several step hull 37ATs, and I have NEVER experienced this.

(Perhaps because my AT is so fast, that I am never behind anyone to cross their wakes. Steve, I think its your driver. :D :D )

Seriously, on the Chicago Poker Run, which was the sickest water that I have ever been in... I ran the boat conservatively. I had my 66 year old Dad aboard, and two other guests. I could have trimmed the boat out more, and lifted the bow, but I did not want any major air. I towed 1600 miles roundtrip for the Chicago Poker Run. I didn't make the trip to stay on the trailer, but also did not make the trip to destroy anything. I never once touched the trim tabs. I kept the drives at exactly straight neutral. I normally run them trimmed up 3.5 ticks from neutral.

I could not ask for more in a boat. I am even VERY happy with my stock/warrantied 496HO power package.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

I have never been in a V-hull that was squirley in the 70's??? Dont they all ride well at those speeds??

To answer the question all of the 37 AT I have seen in person have been very nice looking boats.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

You obviosly don't have a clue what your talking about. My O/lL never porpoised, bucked or spun. Did you ever drive one or do you just like bashing brands.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

Pat took me for a ride in a 37 with HP525,s during the 06 Miami Boat Show. WOT and crank the wheel hard over in either direction in 2-4 seas and the boat rides like it is on rails. I was very impressed. About like the O/L 37 single step I rode in @ Miami several years ago. I would not hesitate to really research the AT. For the money I do not think you can beat this all around package. Joe Murray

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

Not to mention the cost difference... The 37 AT is about as custom a ride as you can get, and for what - a little more than 1/2 that of what a 39 OL will run you? Both great boats, but hard to overlook how much fuel and fun a couple hundred grand (or more) will buy you!? :cool:

And I don't think you're giving up anything going to the AT, maybe even gaining a bit based on some of the comments above?

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

you really shoud do yourself a favor and go to the shop see Pat and look them over, you will not believe what you can get for alot less coin than a OL/CIG/ NT will cost you. Like it was said above you won't be giving anything up and probly gaining in the long run.These guys are doing some freat things these days and the well kept Active Thunder secret is getting out fast. :cool:

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

Does the AT have a microwave oven? That's worth $100K right there! :D :D :D :drink:

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

That boat is for sale right here, but I know of at least one OSO'er who on it like stink on tuna.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/esvon/page-12388.html

Yes.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

Right. Never happened:
http://media.putfile.com/OL50_spin

Note the chine walk first.

I don't have anything against OL -- they are well built boats. Badly designed, like nearly all boats, but well built boats.

Don't feel bad or like this is an OL only thing. This has been happening to multi-step boats for as long as there have been multi-step boats: nearly a hundred years now. Its not a new phenomenon. It pre-dates the Internet, so its not like you can easily google for it.

And if you've only been boating for a few years and so you think any of this stuff is new, don't feel bad either. All of us were novices before we developed a clue.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

Ya no kidding!! And trust me the skater vees are NOT poorly designed!!!!

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

WoW!!! never saw that before. that was a bad day. When I picking up my 28 A.T. Pat took a buddy of mine out for a ride in a 37 and when he got back all he said was amazing and that it was very rough seas and the boat was perfect. And this is coming from a devoute Fountian guy.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

I had an AT 32. It was a great boat, no steps but still very fast with HP500s. The boat was very solid, no rattles no pinging, it was a full balsa core boat, side hull, deck, hull, transom which accounted for the quietness and solid feel. I sold the boat due to a D but would buy another one without a dougt and would be a first pick. I also cranked the wheel very hard a few times, I started out slow and worked my way up, by about 50 turns I was standing that thing on it's side. I had to do this by myself, I could not trust someone holding on. All this and at a great price, I sold mine for what I paid for it and it sold fast.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

so car crash you never driven in a turbine race boat before have you.if you were at that particular race you would have known that they over shot the pin and pulled the throttles back and as you know turbine boats dont slow down like piston powered boats and they made that turn. i ran that boat personally w/ animalhouse for 2yrs in every poker run in all water before Jon turned it into a turbine boat

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

I'm glad you said that Steve.Now buy mine so we'll both be happy. :D :D[/QUOTE]

Gotta sell mine first. Know anyone interested? I'm having a "fall special".

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

Not bashing them at all, and it's happened with more than one driver. Like I said, I'm a straight-V guy primarily, so it's definitely a different feel when the step catches. Since you have a couple of hundred hours, you're probably used to it.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

That is because you are a BOAT WHORE!!!! :D :drink: :D :evilb:

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

Before getting your knickers in a twist, tell me which of these statements is incorrect:

(OLSFFO means "Outerlimits, Skater, Fountain, Formula, and others")

1) The design of OLSFFO is done without any comprehensive mathematical basis.

2) The designers of OLSFFO simply try a very few possibilities, out of all possible configurations.

3) All of these step configurations have been done many, many times in the past. The effect is known historically and can be read about in books written in the first 40 years of the 20th century.

4) History has shown that one step is far better than many steps.

5) The great body of experiments done by NACA between WWI and WWII on sea plane hulls identified single steps as the way to go.

6) Little has been done in research in this area since then, because the concepts were so well understood.

7) The fact that OLSFFO build boats with multiple steps is clear evidence that they do not study their discipline, that the designers are poor students of naval architecture and hydrodynamics.

8) Boats designed by designers who are ignorant are very likely to be poorly designed.

So, where am I wrong? Where do I have no clue?

Ya, no kidding!

Just because something looks really cool, does not mean its well designed. It might be art, it might be beautiful, and I am all for that. I have never and will never buy a boat that is not beautiful. Outerlimits, Cigarette, Fountain, Nor-Tech, and many others are quite beautiful. I really like them. I pour more money into these things than my education!

But if its clearly suboptimal based on well known, long known, hydrodynamic principles, and yet its supposed to be a race boat, well, um, I'll leave the conclusion up to you.

The Skater vees appear to be well built. I'll bet they are measurably stiffer than Fountains due to a higher tech lay-up. The stiffer the boat, the more energy goes into going forward, so it goes faster.

The Skater vees do not appear to be as well designed as Fountains, because they don't do so well on Kilo runs, which are in smooth water, so the stiffness of the Skater is not as much of an advantage.

We don't need to go into any comparisons between the OL and Fountain design, do we? That's been beaten to death, no comparison there.

We don't need to point out that Outerlimit boats are much more beautifully finished, better constructed, better rigged, more comfortable and luxurious, and so on either, do we? That is just as obvious.

Any errors yet? I didn't think so. Not bad for someone without a clue, huh?

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

Hey Listen!!! :mad: My boat has no steps I love it!!! But you go down to skater, and tell that to Petes face and tell him its all wrong. You know where you will get bashing world class boats? Nowhere! If you can build a better boat. LETS SEE IT!

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

No, of course not.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

The Skater/Fountain speed comparison based of steps alone is not a good one. On the Fountain, in nice calm water that big pad bottom in the front of the steps and the close strakes after the step are coming in to play and developing a tremendous amount of lift.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

whats all this got to do with the question asked in the first place? :eek: carcrash are you saying that A.T. is better because of one step? I understand your story on steps and that they have been around for years haveing been around wood boats and seaplanes all my yonger years. I don't believe there is a lot of research in most of these boats but A.T. actully has a patten on the bottom( Harry Scholle does) I have heard a joke about steps and dart boards but won't get into that. All I know for sure is the 37 Active works :cool:

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

Yes, Cosmic12, that is my point. Single step AT (or the earlier OL) is not a bad thing, on the contrary, a good thing.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

Remember the 36 Apaches made around 1990 with the forward facing step? What was the purpose of that?

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

i know this boat very well. has been at my shop for viewing. and now reside at my friends house in hewlett. theres a couple of guys coming to see it this week.

get this he's willing to take a trade.

so if your looking ,,,, look no more.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

Exactly Like Nothing Else..

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

You are a car CRASH I was at that race and it was rough they were in first overall. I think it was one of John's 1st races. T he water was rough day before also a 42 fountain spun out in the same area a friend of mine who had twin 1000's in it. Thats a rough area one out of the last 3 races were canceled there. I like wording IT'S A PLANING HULL NO SH#T IF WAS SHIP IT WOULD BE A DISPLACEMENT HULL :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D ps bass boats are planing hulls too.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

Car crash,

lets start by clearing one thing up, The video you put up of the AMF boat spinning was clearly the fact they went to hot into the corner in a very rough water race. As admitted in the original thread about a year ago by the driver.

I was the owner of the boat prior to it being turned into a race boat powered by turbine power, and I can tell you that it never handled funny, never chine walked, and certainly nerver spun out. WE completed over a dozen poker runs in all types of water, and never had any problems.

Second of all, if you are such the expert on boat design, give us your credentials, let us know how many boats you have designed. You base your opinion of a hull design based upon kilo speeds? I guess that we should rush out to buy the fountain because it is superior to everybody else in a kilo run!!! But you are missing the point, their kilo boat is a potatoe chip built for one purpose straight line in a kilo. Our kilo boat (XXX) was a production boat, with full interior, and ran 20 poker runs with no major problems (until the 1550 sterlings finaly let go with 300 hours on them)

Ask anybody in attendance at this years chicago poker run if the 47 gtx was a poorly designed boat? It ran circles around everyone else in the monster water and did it quite comfortably.

Did you notice when the turbine AMF spun out that it stayed upright and the drives and all hardware were still there? That spun occured at over 95 mph. How many poorly built boats would have sunk due to the hole left in the transom from the drives being ripped off?

You have no clue on what you are talking about. The outerlimits' steps are placed for purpose and function, most boat builders place them wherever they think they look the best with no concept of how they are supposed to perform.

I have had enough seat time in every model outerlimits they have built, and can assure all who doubt that they are fast, dry, stable, and chew up rough water better than anything out there.

Show us your credentials in hydrodynamics and we may believe you, but judging from your 23 posts you are new here and are looking to ruffle some feathers.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

Once agian a terrible comparison of two completley different boats. OL, no comparison!

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

Ok, so getting back to the subject...I took a ride some years ago on a 37 AT with Pat at the helm. At that point I owned one of his 28 non stepped hulls. I was so impressed with the ride, I decided right then and there that the 37 AT was my next boat.

Well, almost 3 years later I was given the opportunity to purchase the first 33 AVH hull. I had no doubt that Harry Schoell's design would be perfect on the 33. I now own the first 33 AVH AT produced. As I thought, Harry nailed it.

My first real experience with the boat was in VA, during the Jamm'n on the James poker run this July. I had Pat's experience along with the Jay Ross' for the entire run. Needless to say, the grins from the entire crew, were from ear to ear.

Nuff said.

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

Personally, I like all the A/T.(but that's just me) On the other hand I find this thread to be completely humorous,(sorry for laughter) but carcrash you realize you are trying to convince people that have spent a half a million dollars or more on a product that you are saying is flawed. What did you think they would say. This is some funny S***...lol

Re: active thunder vs. outerlimits
 

It just baffels me that these things get so far off the orignal subject that the poor guy that starts it never gets his question answered :eek: