futre of the sport..why we shoot ourselves in the foot..
 

I was just reading the SCL start thread..and couldnt help thinking (yes I know thinking is bad..it causes headaches) anyways the thread started because someone (a spectator) thought the start looked odd to him..he even posted piks to illustrate his point. He was greeted by replies like unless you race, you dont know jack...stop monday morning quaterbacking etc.. whether he owns a bout or not isnt important, whether hes been boating since 1949 isnt important, what is important is that as a spectator he saw something and questioned it. of the many threads recently about how to make the sport grow... we need to encourage growth if its going to happen. As a sport grows people are going to see it, they are going to ask questions to understand it, they are going to monday morning quarter back it,(thats what a sports fan does) they are going to talk about it..they are gonna sit back with a beer and imagine themselves behinde the wheel, on the throttles or throwing that long pass that wins the big game..that inturn gets other people interested in it, brings out more spectators to races, bigger crowds bring more money, more money brings more sponsors, more sponsors and money bring tv, tv brings more people into the sport, some of these people will buy boats, some will go on to do poker runs..some will be biten by the bug and start racing..thats our future. next time someone posses a question we need to answer it not criticize him for asking. if you know what happened or the answer or whatever, explain it. the only stupid question is the one never asked.. To survive and grow we must bring people into our circle..not chastise and chase them away. just my 2 cents...

or too put over simplify my rambling comments:
It only takes 2 boats and a body of water to have a race, thats easy..
What we really want is a prime time sport..
A prime time sport is entertainment
entertainment is a buisness
A buisness will fail without customers
Our customers are the spectators, in person or watching tv etc.
With poor customer service, a buisness looses costomers.
We need to work on our customer service.

Hey Mark,
We care about you, but then again we don't have any money lol. keep the faith it's getting better.
Louietherigger
"Strictly Business 206"

[QUOTE=marylandmark;2076111]

My 2 cents as someone else posted before is that most of them do have big money so us pee-on's don't matter.

QUOTE]

I wouldnt say that. I have known quite a few wealthy people in boating, in racing, in life in general.BY far, the great majority of them being good people..and Im one broke bastard. think about it..a bad attitude closes a lot more dorrs than it opens. to be succesful in anything usually requires walking thru quite a few open doors.

Now what I would say is that it doesnt take very much sour milk in your fruity pebbles to have the breakfast experience leave a bad taste in your mouth.

I am glad however that you made that post and expressed your opinion. You my friend are a classic example of a dissatisfied customer and are speaking your mind. We need to listen and take heed.

And if a $10 dollar entry fee into the pits keeps you from supporting Louie, come look fro me and I will not only reimburse your $10 bucks..I will buy you a beer I will be at algonac, st clair and smoke

Tee shirts om me! thanks for the support!

[QUOTE=
(that is if I don't have to pay $10/person to get in the pits... :eek: )[/QUOTE]

And here is the real problem with the current set-up for Offshore Racing -- There is no way for an Offshore Racing Organization, Race Promoter, or anyone else to charge an admission or gate. As such, where does the $$ for a race come from? Well, take your pick - either from the Racer's pockets, the locale/city where the race is being held, from sponsors with deep pockets, or the sanctioning body itself. History shows us what happens to these business models over time. They are not sustainable.

There has been lots of discussion over the years about sponsors, TV Coverage, etc. , and lots of comparisons to NASCAR as the sport we should look to as a model. So tell me ... how much would you "Pay" to get into a NASCAR pit? How much have you paid to go see a NASCAR, Drag, or off-road race? Would you pay to go see an Offshore Race?

While there are some who may not like the reply(ies) to questions asked in other threads and have strong feelings about it (which is your right -- and I won't argue that), I would argue that is but a minor blip on the radar screen. Once Offshore Racing can become a sustainable business by being able to control the racecourse venues and charge admission, we're all just spinning our wheels.

BTW - this reply is NOT directed to the person I'm quoting. I'm using that quote to make a point - so no offense is intended :D

i agree that a stupid question is one not asked.

personally, I wouldnt have a problem answering his questions, however one would feel that the way he asked it was a bit inciteful. Dont you think?

If he didnt know the rules, he had a hell of a way of placing blame.

I dont think race teams wish to push any fans or spectators away. we appreciate you no matter how fast your boat runs or how much money you have. but if you ask us a question by making allegations, your going to encounter some resistance.

I don't agree at all with the post on charging at the gates being a major source of funding. Television and the following sponsorship is where it's at. Think aobut it. Do you really think sports like golf, drag racing, etc. Benefit all that much from the $$$ made from the few folks that happen to show up or the millions watching it from home seeing the sponsor names and commercials??????

If we could lock in television that is when I think our sport will really grow. How many of us watched boat racing from Europe on saturday mornings and wondered why the hell aren't they showing races from the US????? We have much better looking boats, more animated racers/teams and I would think just as big of sponsors with our professional teams. AMF has made a great start in getting the sport out to the masses but we really need to land a nationwide contract to see headway. Hell what ever organization is successful in locking in a television contract is bound to see a large jump in boat count....it sure would make it easier to get sponsorship if they knew the boat would be on national tv!!!!

Television and nationwide sponsors are the long term answer -- but how do you get there? You cannot keep relying forever on either the racers paying all the bills, trying to get the towns on the circuit to pony up the $$$ for a race, or relying on people like Mr. Haggin to pay the bills. At some point people have to start showing a return on their investment or the money dries up. This is what the last 20 - 30 odd years have shown us.

When a race site can make enough money to cover the bills, pay the racers, and have seed money for the next year's race, then good things will start happening which would allow the proper positioning of Offshore Racing for TV and national sponsors. If sites could control and charge admission then this becomes a reality. This is not somethng that is happening now.

WRC rally racing..is huge just about everywhere but here..yet it happens on country roads with no admission..same thing with desert racing. gate fees are small..race sunday..sell monday..doesnt matter if its boats, or a power saw seen on the home depot add during the race coverage

Again I don't see boat racing ever really drawing in crazy crowds. Hell I bet over half the spectators don't even know what the hell is going on on the water! who's in what class, what place they're in, etc. They're just out for a day in the sun by the water. No one's gonna shell out much $ for that. We draw good crowds cause its free. Start charging and I see a major drop in attendance.

If you go back to the basics I would like to see some sorta large display like at the horsetrack showing boat number and their place, lap number too. Have it split up by class. This would help keep the crowd up to speed on what's going on.

Hell, "THE WATER CHANNEL" isn't even re-running the 1-2 dozen episodes of American powerboat TV anymore. Now it's the knife show all the time:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Even though many here groaned a bit that the shows were usually 50% Fountain and Livorsi Commercials (me included) it was still better than nothing.

Hey Louie..wheres my shirt?? huh??
large crowds are a marketing audience..sponsors dont sponsor races..they buy advertising..that large crowd on the beach, on the balcony of the hotel, wandering thru the pits, each spectator has a dollar value.every set of eyes that see a budwiser banner is worth money, every thirsty tongue that buys a drink is worth money. every head the looks to the sky to see the dodge dealership banner being towed behinde the plane is worth money.every person that drives his car to a race has to park it somewhere..thats worth money, the patrons hand that holds the parking stub with the eat at joes ad is worth money. the empty stomach of the hungry guy who buys two hotdogs for himsel, one for his wife and ice cream for his kid is worth money, they guy trying to be cool bying 27 strands of beads is worth money..every drooling guy that shows up to see RG3 in a bikini is worth money, every person who gets a free pit pass from being the 15th caller at the local rock station is worth money. every person that buys a hat or t shirt is worth money, every person who forgot there sunscreen and has to buy a new bottle is worth money. All we need to do is to provide a large enough captive audience to demand our fair share..afterall the wouldnt be here if it wasnt for us.. thats what sponsorship is... budwieser, redbull, coppertone etc..they all could care less about our silly little boat race..what they care about is the dollar value of every spectator, be it in person or on tv. If the company thinks there is sufficient money to be made off our captive auadience..they will gladly pay us (sponsor) for the ability to solicit that audience.

and for mentioning all those spectaotrs that dont know whats going on or whos winning..90% of them dont care.. they just want the yellow boat with the red stripes to win because he gave them stickers or a can coozy and posed for a pik with there kid. they simply cheer when one boat passes another and roosts them down good and they gasp when a boat hits a big wave, points the bow at the moon, trips and almost stuffs, they hold there breath when the cat barrel rolls on the turn, then cheer when the crew limbs out thru the bottom.

then a few of those people are gonna go home and throw go fast boats into google and are going to end up here// they are gonna ask a bunch of questions we have seen 2000 times before, they are going to make comment that will have some of us shaking our heads thinking " that was the stupidest thing I have ever heard". if we answer his questions, explain things to him...the next race he is going to bring 6 of his buddies, there wives and kids out of his 6 buddies one is going to show up here..laugh at the beak vs outerlimits war, take a second on the house and buy a cig. next thing you know you pop a drive hooked up to that monster blower motor of yours during a poker run, and its gonna be him that tows your butt back in. Then in 3 years, this guy buys a race boat and all his friends, half his co workers, his uncle jim and aunt erma, there nephewand the kid next door to his nephew show up to watch him race, as the crowd stands on there feets cheering his orange boat with blue stripes, becuse he gave out beads AND can coozes AND took piks with the kids plus autographed there t-shirts.

I think that a lot of it has to do with how easy it is to respond on a message board brashly.

I was at the Cambridge OPA race this past year with my uncle who is a former OPA racer and the people in the dry pits couldn't have been nicer. Everywhere we walked, guys offered us beer and food and were more than happy to answer any questions i asked. I think most of the guys racing are real good people and real social people and things on the internet often get taken in the worst possible way. People like to talk to other people who are straight shooters and don't beat around the bush, but on message boards those same people often times come off as harsh when they are just saying it like it is. I always take everything I read on here with a grain of salt.

I also have to agree, every time I've been in the dry pit's, all the teams have been extremely cordial.
I met Stan Ware (Popeye's) and the Roman brothers (Motley Crew) in 2005 in St. Pete, and Stan introduced me and my wife to his family, and we ate chicken for breakfast with them. All this while Stan was nervously waiting on an overnight shipment of new drives to replace what got destroyed on Thursday, and be able to go back and race.

2004 in Key West was also a blast. Everyone was very open to talk, and there was a great OSO party - even met RG3 and Allan4, and Thrillseeker there, as well as many others.

In 2002, I remember being at the Cleveland APBA races, wandered into the wet pits, and wound up giving a hand helping tie up boats that had come back in from prop testing before the race - I didn't know any of the racers, just giving a hand.

I've been to a few of Chris Reindl's (Batboats) races, and he has always recognized me and given me and my guests VIP bracelets for the race. Wasn't uncommon at those events to wind up "giving a hand" to help. Chris is a great guy, and always puts on a good event.

GlassDave is another good example of a straight forward guy, genuine guy, he just doesn't own a clock or a watch.:D

I've only met a few that are azzhole's - but there's one or two in every crowd.

paying the $10 bucks to get in the pits, consider it a cover charge to get into the cool club that everyone hangs out at. And, everyone is welcome.

Your shirt is being prepped for delivery, I IM'ed you for an address. Key is who benefits when we come to town? The local businesses do, the race I'm working on is going to be sponsored by them along with a few entusiasts. Logistically it is almost impossible to collect a gate at a race site except for Key West and I think it would adversely affect attendence at most races. Our courses are sublect to change, do to a variety of of reasons, the vendors at a car race are permanent ours set up tents. we are a traveling show subject to bad weather and a host of other snags. But we are all here talking about this, we are putting our boats back together, getting our equipment in order and getting ready to race! this is going to be a great year and I think the start of good things to come. Well I gotta get back to work. Keep the faith! Louie

It started out with free hotel rooms in the Bahamas....that was it. You paid your own expenses, fuel, bar bill etc.

It grew from that, to real legit sponsors who paid real money alongside the business owners who put their own business name on the boats to pretend they were beng sponsored.

The Benihana race in the late 70's was held on a Wednesday because the Coast Guard said they couldn't control the weekend crowds. On a Wednesday, we had more than 400,000 people, on the shore, in boats, in hotels etc.

Make the decision....do you want a business like NASCAR or do you want a "gentlemens sport" where the money guys show up and play at racing, for a few weekends a year. You can't have it both ways.

The real racer of today is no different than the 50's....he will race anywhere. Get it off the beach and back to the real open ocean offshore...... and maybe that will get the attention of the media and the real advertisers again.

www.historicraceboats.com

Well put Charlie! We need to listen to guys like Charlie who were involved when racing was in it's glory and take there advice on how to return the sport to those days.

Hey I hear that the 35 is here in mass I talked to Mike Perette

Cat ,
Get me your address and I'll send you one, do you want the regular style or do you want the one that has the nipple openings lol:eek:

BINGO!!!!!!

Ok here's my .02 cents worth.:rolleyes:

The sport WILL NOT grow until it has a place to call home. What was NASCAR until they had Daytona? A bunch of redneck boot legging hill billy's running around in circles on dirt and sand. If offshore powerboat racing had a gated / fan paying site , it would grow. My vision is to buy some undeveloped , oil slickened , hurricane destructed piece of land in Louisiana or Mississippi. I can picture it in my mind: Gated - parking - concrete pads for racers / dry pits , etc. Fans in motor homes flying Fountain - Baja - Outerlimts flags. Grandstands on the inside - flat water - hosing down fans. Run down the straight away and out the cut to the outside where it's rough and huge jumbotrons keeping the fans up to date until they come back inside. Other groups could rent the track for testing , drag races - tunnel boats , etc. Trust me the sport will never go anywhere until it has a home. I told my vision to Scott w/ AMF at The Miami Boat Show , he was like wow? If I were John Haggin I'd find some property , investors , develop it and make real offshore powerboat racing history. John Haggin could be the next Bill France! Daytona , Talledega , Martinsville , etc built NASCAR. It's all in the sites. This site could also include the Offshore Powerboat Racing Hall of Fame (so many x racers deserve this) BUILD IT AND THEY WILL COME! Just my .02 worth!

Splash!

yes..the racer and crew will always be a customer.. they are a customer of the race promotor (you want something, a place to race..he has it) and of the sponsor (sooner or later your going to want something, and the sponsor is hoping your going to get it from him)

chippin it you guys are from York? I can't believe we don't know each other
Team Wild Ride svl#51 right up the road in camphill

Anybody notice that Snowmobile racing is on the Speed Channel?...... in weekend prime time?

I also watched a guy show me how to service a garden tractor ..on Two Guy's Garage...again on Speed Channel...Saturday morning. .....riveting stuff.

With all the complaining about not comparing Offshore Racing to Nascar..... Is anybody still so hard headed as to believe you can't compare Offshore racing to Snowmobile racing.....or lawn implement preventive maintenance????

Just keep telling ourselves what a wonderful job the sport, promotors, and sanctioning groups are doing.

Maybe we'll wake up when they start putting cooking competitions on instead of the Key West World's......

Oh wait!...They already do..... They call it "Iron Chef".

:) :) :) :) :p

T2x

P.S. I don't think they charge admission to the "Kitchen Stadium".

Yeah, I watched that too...
Damn thing didn't even need servicing to boot.

my observations from the Toronto race last year as a race volunteer.

Crews in the pits...nice, friendly, open.

Some of the OSS officials in the pits.........arrogant, ignorant, self important. Please note I said "some".

I'll take the race teams anyday.

Louie .... Eric is gonna kill you :p :drink:

Airpacker ... bet I can guess which ones :D



Btw ... I think the fans are the race teams customers and the race teams are the organizations customers. If the organizations would keep the teams happy, the teams would be able to do the same with the fans ...

Whats that saying about something rolling down hill ... :bunny:

I started the SCL thread asking the question was the start legal and posted some nice photos to look at and make the call.Some of my statement included A** kicking which I removed.
That said I have been around Offshore racing since my farther raced with Cigarette in the late 60s & 70s and have owned many performance boats with large power.
Me and Richie grew up racing and watching Al copeland through the decades.He has made the step to start racing with no backing from anyone.I'm also thinking of giving up the poker run skater for a chance of holding the checkered flag.
Myself and 2 sons have maintained,converted,built drives,motors wrenched through the night just to make a poker run.27yrs 6 perfomance boats many long hrs,blood,sweet and green have trained us like machines.
To see that start go bad I felt the pain and new he would not only lose but not complete the race.Alot of time and money went into his MTI to lose that way.Just seemed like they could have done a restart.
I did spend money on a vip package not to count the grand or so i spent at the Beau Rivage.I spent most of my day explaining to the fans who new nothing what was going on.
One racer jump my thread for not being a racer,and I replyed.He also has his view and I do respect that,but someone else may have said the hell with this sport and moved on.The family of OSO is some of the best in supporting
racing and performance boating, but we all most keep an opening mind. :drink:

Racers aren't the customers , tried that. They shouldn't have to pay HUGE AMOUNTS of cash to race and get 0 in reurn! They should be making money. Our sport is nothing more than an expensive hobby. See my earlier post - gated , ticketed events. Racing turbines , spec classes , etc aren't going anywhere until you can get hundreds of thousands of fans watching and paying for their viewing pleasure. Haggin , Copeland , Dave Scott , Stan Ware , etc could make this happen. Call a meeting , rent a helicopter , get busy!

Brian,

Why would they do this? So they can become owners instead of racers? Do they want another career? I think not. They (we) want a diversion from what they already do to make a living. We enjoy this hobby and the people we meet be they friends, fans, or acquaintances. If someone wants to take offshore racing to a new level, they'll have to be willing to take the risk and put in the time and own it.

J

To make a difference. Bill France was a racer once upon a time. He had a vision and went for it!

He became the organizer of the sanctioning body and made a business of it. Anyone on the list want to give up their day job, take the bull by the horns and go for it? The recipe is simple. 1.) Have a series and run the races in the same place at the same time year after year.
2.) Have some guys with disposable income to come and race.
3.) Have a good set of rules that are enforced fairly.
4.) Hang on until a company like R.J Reynolds comes looking for a place to advertise with some big $$$ to spread around and you'll have your next overnight success.

Offshore needs a sponsor with a socially acceptable vice. It's absolutely amazing what money can do.

J

i dont rember last time we charged for a tshirt. i was a spectator once. i enjoy the people asking questions about our sport. we welcome them at truck stops or autograph sessions at hospitals. come one come all, peppers racing is open

Jim,

Some guy I know from KW has been doing the above recipe for 20 some odd years now, dang I sure wish I could remember his name though.:rolleyes: Why do racers keep insisting on tearing the sport apart? You had one of the best teams in F1, why dont you race anymore? even with Hollis offer of the unbelievable purses he only got one team to sign up. Why dont we have tv? well I know the answer to that one, unpaid bills from other organizations in the past have ruined it for the current and new associations. Offshore has a bad reputation due to its history with major business and at least in the CART-IRL deal they can coexist due to they only split once, we have split how many times now(I dont have that many fingers) It is what it is and what race girl described is NASCAR and the goals that we should strive for, unfortunatly Steve M hit it on the head, the racers are the customers.

Trent

Jim:

It'll never be nothing but a hobby until offshore has a home , period! With all the zillionare's money out there not one of them has put a plan together to atleast build a hall of fame. We have builders , land developers , etc and everyone's ego is so big they want give back a dime to the sport. It's pathetic! We need organization , unity and someone with a vision and of course $$$$$.

And dont forget beer :drink:
heheheheh

Yea that's another problem w/ racing - haha!

Trent & Brian,

You see the first 3 parts of the recipe exist today in Offshore racing. The only part missing now is #4.

Keep in mind there are all kinds of motor sports who have parts 1-3 and are also waiting for #4 to come to the party.

J

I equate boat racing to roadracing. Many classes, many different sanctioning bodies over the years, little prize money or paying spectators.
Bad question to ask here but during offshore racings golden era did drug money fund a lot of teams ? It sure did in IMSA roadracing.
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