Gas Turbines
 

I have heard that the gas turbines are not as maintenance free as advertised. My understanding is that you have work on them more than hi-perf gas engines and that rebuids are done more often than 3000hrs or whatever the say. Who can share some pros and cons of the turbine?

3000 hours? To put that in perspective. The Merc 1075 and 1200 needs pulled and sent to Merc at 50 hours for a valvetrain check. Then pulled again and sent to Merc to be rebuilt at 150 hours.
How many HP is the gas turbine putting out?

Con.

-No Insurance available.
-Limited trottleing, turbines are only efficient at a certain rpm when not running there they deteriorate faster than the 3000hrs between overhaul claimed.

the actual turbines themselves are relativly trouble free and can for many hours before needing any rebuilds. the systems required to put that power to the water ,however , can be somewhat troublesome to say the least. best bet is to contact Job Aruda of Turbine Marine they have the best stuff out there.

Has anybody run them in bigger waves yet????...I was under the impression that they really could not be throttled as to compete in big waves...technology is always changing though.

they run on kerosene or diesel fuel. in an airplane they have a 3000 hr TBO depending on the make but in a boat there is no FAA to say they need to come out. If you use a fairly new engine they have computer controls for the fuel so that you can run them at any rpm and not have a problem

If I had a checkbook that could support buying a large cat, turbine is the way I would go, but I am also a turbine rated pilot so I would feel right at home

The Turbines used, are from Helicopters, (Turbo shaft)
and while they put out plenty of HP, they are really designed to operate @85% or better. the turbines used are no longer certifiable by the FAA. Most are former Military engines.
Most Aircraft engines have High time componets which must be remove reguardless if they are still working fine.
Turbines fall in to that catagory. once removed can be recondition and used in other non- flying applications.

the deterioration of the engine at lower rpm can come from nozzle cokeing wich is a buildup of carbon on the fuel nozzles. other than that though... there is not any extra wear and tear on the engine at lower rpm. We actually have a computer control for the older turbine engines (normally called a F.A.D.E.C. system on aircraft, which stands for Full Authority Digital Engine (Or Electronic) Control.) that are used in boats that prevents hotstarts and over revving of the engine. Although the onboard hydromechanical fuel control does a pretty good job of limiting the over revving by itself. Turbine lag on it's own will keep you pretty safe in all but the biggest hariest airborne situations. We have a pretty good system for getting the power to the water as well... infact built by the same guy who builds Johns stuff but with a few tweaks just for us. Sorry our web site is crap right now... but that should change in the next few weeks so keep an eye out. We will have a "turbine engines for dummies" section for those of you who have never had the oportunity to see what makes them tick... or whine...
As for the big wave question... I have had one of our boats out in 4-5 footers but that's about it. (50' Airborne Marine... was at the Miami Boat show in '06)

Sorry and to answer the original question... Gas Turbines ARE that reliable... when you get them from a reliable source. Buying something like a Turbine engine off of e-bay without really knowing what you are getting... well... you are asking for trouble. They are simple in concept, but complex in design. Internal tolerances range in the .002-.004 for many components, and the pilots out there will confirm that they are pretty touchy when it comes to thermal limits.
So any horror stories you hear of them being maintenance pigs, probably come from someone trying to wedge one into their boat based upon reading a book about one once, rather than relying on a trained professional. Not that there arn't some very intelligent people out there who have had great success learning on the fly. But ask any pilot if they'd want a shade tree mechanic looking after their engine or a licenced A&P or Aircraft Maintenance Engineer... I think they might prefer the licenced guys... but if there are any pilots out there who want to weigh in on this please set me straight if I am out of line... (bgchuby01... any thoughts?)

Any questions about big waves, here ya go

25 races and shootouts and still going strong

Hey Scott when you guys are running ruff water do you have to throttle in a similar way to regular piston offshore boats? or does the lag time keep the turbines pretty much spooled up? just curious really, seems most of the components can handle high rpm in that type of setup.

Great pics to by the way. I know we took some pretty good flights down in Destin. thought our 2.5's were gonna come all the way back to idle a few time in the air :D

You don't let off as much, just enough to relieve the drivetrain of some torch during re entry

How about the insurance issue?

Great thread!! Very interesting!

I talked with John cosker of about throttling them in the air, he said it was easier driving a turbine than a piston powered boat. A turbine will limit (over rev) itself with the fuel control faster than you can with the throttles, throttling back in the air is to protect the drive train.:D If you could get the noise down while around the docks they would be an unbeatable combo, aside from the cost.

We have found it tough going I think just because it is hard to get the insurance companies to listen to you about aviation level reliability and safety... all they want to hear is "What... a jet engine in a boat!!! no way..." and that may be partly from guys who kinda might not have known exactly what they were doing and burned their boats as a result. Certainly the turbine engine is just an engine like a piston motor is an engine... produces perhaps a bit more horsepower for it's weight... but you can go just as fast in a well rigged piston boat as you can in a turbine boat, well.... almost as fast, how bout... hehehe...
A turbine flows a lot more air than a piston engine... but the temperatures are relatively comparable and certainly proper installation makes it a moot point anyways. So... yeah we have found problems with getting insurance... and still not sure why when you look at the computer technology available on our turbines. GPS tracking and data logging of all inputs including throttle position etc etc. The Insurance guys would actually be able to get a download from any "Incident" from the boats computer system and decide if the owner was operating outside the realms of common sense. So... I don't know why they arn't actually lining up to sign people with turbines... seems to me to be of benifit to them... but you know how it is hard to get new technology accepted by institutions??

We have a sound scilencing air intake design. We actually implemented the original design on a project for the military and had a T-53-11 down to 65db. at 100 feet distance. It would take a bit more engineering to get it into a recreational boat... but it can be done... oh... and cost should be almost comparable to installing Sterlings especially if you take into account cost of ownership over 3-5 years. Maintenance wise with the new drivetrains we have and the fact that you are running on Diesel (Although the price of that isn't what it used to be.)

I work on turbines almost every day, maintenance & reliability are totally different from piston power. For the average boater turbines are a tough concept to work on, but if you do some research on the required maint. of a hp turbine versus the required maint. on a hp piston the difference is huge. The turbine only "spins" in one direction, where a piston has to travel up, stop, go down, stop, go back up,etc.... then throw in some valves, springs, pushrods, lifters etc... Each engine has there distinct advantages and disadvantages, it comes down to which one can you afford and operate. I love turbines, but I have pistons in my boat!!!:D

Man I'm glad I asked the question! The only way I would turbine power a boat would be from someone who is reliable and knows how to make them work for a boat. The reason I asked about reliabilty is the guys over at the Aqua Toy Store said you always had to mess with them.The boat they have was one of Turbine Marines first installs.

My problem is to make it quiet for the Water Patrol on LOTO,90 db at an idle from 3 feet off of the back

I LOVE threads on OSO when I learn stuff !!!
Please keep this thread going......

Questions-
1. I think I read somewhere that John Aruda was working on a Bio-fuel source for his turbine applications, that would be cheaper and burn cleaner ?

2. What happens if the turbine gets wet?

3. How do you slow these things down ? Is there some kind of brake on the shaft ?

These are proably very dumb questions...sorry:D

Much has been done to improve reliability since those days certainly by us at Firestorm Turbines and I am sure down at Turbine Marine as well. It is pretty standard to always be working on reliability issues and working to improve the state of the art...

Not sure where I said it already today... but at the risk of getting flamed for repeating myself....

We did a project for the military that had our T-53 down to 65db at 100 feet.. the technology is readily adaptable to marine use...

Not dumb questions at all...

Don't know if John has worked on a Bio-fuel source for his engines or not but we were contacted by the government a while back about that verry issue and managed to prove that it was at least a viable concept.

Fresh water wet is no big deal... we wash them down all the time... even when running. Salt water wet you better have a good bit of corrosion protection on the magnesium parts cause if not it looks a whole lot like the movie ALIENS when the badguy's blood drips on the steel floor... lots of holes...

This is a bad thing especially when you consider that the powder residue is radioactive. (Inlet housings of T-53 engines are very slightly radioactive.) So salt water exposure requires a fresh water washdown.

yes there is a brake system on the driveshaft. you can see in the picture below the brake at the top of the drop box. This allows the engine to run at idle, but prevents it from spooling up to 3000rpm when in neutral and making it impossible to get back into gear. These engines are what is called FREE TURBINE engines and the power section is free to rotate or stop independantly of the compressor section. This means that you can stop the powershaft completely, and still have the engine running.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...nginepics8.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...at/tp_t53a.jpg

Hope this helps

KC ...not sure where your's going with that comment but I'll give it the benefit of doubt.

Actions speak louder than gossip. Aquatoy store just bought two more turbine boats so they must be pretty happy with Turbine Marine.

In fact Turbine Marine has 9 NEW Turbine boats on order right now.

Everything we learn on the race course concerning usability and reliability goes into the customers boat.

Marc

Rocketboat -
Thanks very much for the info...This stuff is really interesting !
All the best,
Hans

Gonna be quite the show watching someone trying to hold a decibel meter three feet off my transom !! :evilb: :drink:

maybe a marshmellow then!:D

you could hang a rack of ribs off the wing on the bud select..after the race LUNCH!! :D

Gas turbines are MUCH more reliable than reciprocating engines. I buy/refurb/sell larger engines for electricity generation. The industrial versions are run for 8,000 hours before you need to perform a combustion inspection, and 24,000 hours before you need to perform a minor overhaul. Major overhauls are generally at 50,000 hours.

Sorry, but the smallest I have is 25,000HP - Don't think Nor-Tech has a boat big enough yet.

Kent

I'll take two for the Outerlimits.:evilb:

You already can run 100% bioDiesel in turbines. Much cleaner emissions. ZERO net CO2, ZERO sulfer. One main reason why i would love turbines in my boat is this exact reason, especially when gas is $5 per gallon

http://www.biodiesel.org/
http://www.veggievan.org/

So lets go brother!! Got a couple sitting in the shop right now waiting for a new home....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...nginepics8.jpg

They are zero timed and dyno runs spec them out to Aviation standards.

Turbine Marine/AMF/Miss Geico will hopefully be introducing the Bio sensitive boat before the end of the season.

We run high pressure fresh water injection for saltwater races in the event of us getting a hosedown or taking a wave.

All of our engines have been fully marinized for a saltwater environment.

What happens to the engines if you take a heavy saltwater hosedown in a piston boat? we just have to flush?

Both have their advantages...

Ahh comeon Marc - be nice. :evilb: :drink:

Anyone have any leads on two L13-B Turbines?
Please call me.



Thanks
Gerry
401-255-5242

Gerry...

Got some... 705-790-7702

Howie

How bout a couple of T-55's (2400hp each!!!) That'll make yer Outerlimits get up and go... :drink:

Seriously.... don't know if you are interested for real or not... but hey... contact me sometime if you want to discuss the possibility.
Cheers

I wish but the people at my marina would have a fit.:eek: I have Dean Gellner building three 750's for it right now.:evilb: