Fastest 28 Nordic Heat
 

Who has some of the fastest 28 Nordics. I would like to get some info on handling etc. I am building a 925 EFI for one and would like to know what to expect. How much power are people putting in them, how fast are they, how do they handle etc?
The only one I know of that is running close to a 100 is Steve Zuckerman. He has said his boat handles very well at speeds, I believe, over 95. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Eddie.

There is a guy here on Gun Lake in Michigan that runs 90. Looks very stable, even out on Lake Michigan. I believe he is running about 750 hp through an IMCO Extreme outdrive. KS

Check with Nordicflame, he had one with a nice 540 in it.

I believe that bobl has 900hp in his Nordic Heat. :eek:

Clay,
I think Bob's boat is a 25' with over 900 hp. I was reading the Nordic section last night.

Thanks Indy and KS. Hopefully Nordicflame will chime in with some info.

I wonder what the highest speed is that a Nordic has gone? Not looking to make this the fastest one ever, just curious.

Nope... Bob's is a 28, Brian's is the 25...

Both are Sweet!

I was gonna say Steve Zuckerman, but he's already been covered.

[QUOTE=gumbyjb;2184940]Nope... Bob's is a 28, Brian's is the 25...

My bad.

Come on. There are no other fast Nordics out there????
:D

The Heat runs very nicely at speeds up to 100. As with any boat you must pay attention :eek:
I've only known of one true Heat that has run 103 and that was on the Ohio river I believe. He could not keep a B-Max together however. That was with a Paul Phaff 1200 motor that they had pullied and fueled for power :rolleyes:


I built a 548ci ProCharged EFI motor with an R-Tech Supercooler that is pushing a Heat 97+ and running out of prop at Lake Havasu. I have no doubt that it will hit the 100 mark with the right prop. It runs a strong 93 mph here at 5000 feet elevation every day. Appx hp 1000-1100.
It has a Max Machine drive and every time we drop elevation it seems to have a drive issue of some sort. To be expected I guess :)
925 should put you in the low to mid 90 range. When you get there, ask us about props because I think between us we've tried them all :D
It will take more than 925 to be the fastest ever. We are only running 6-7 lbs so we have some room to play :drink:

I guess my 63.5 MPH top-end doesn't qualify.

If anyone has a motor they're swapping-out in order to push higher numbers, and that can "drop in" to my Heat and push it tp the 80 - 85MPH range, let me know. I might be interested toward the end of this season.

My engine dyno'd at 923. It is a midcabin and runs low 90's consistently on smooth water and summer heat. Never had the opportunity to run it in a good chop and cool temps. My setup is slightly different than the others. I have the Merc ITS/XR drive package. I don't beieve it helps performance(probably hurts it actually), but handling is very nice. At 80 MPH you could literally let go of the steering wheel and walk away(don't try this at home, LOL)

How high is the water level at your house, Bob? :(

It's up the driveway. The pavillion has about 3 ft. of water over the top of it.

OMG! :eek:

Some of these numbers aren't adding up. Steve just dynoed his motor at just over 700(I believe) and he is running low to mid 90's on GPS.

Nordicflame is running almost 100 with 300-400 more hp

Bob has about 200 more hp and runs about the same as Steve.

I'm certainly not calling anyone a liar or starting any $hit, just trying to figure out what this boat will run. I'm sure there are some differences in setup, weight, drive height, conditions etc., but there are some BIG differences in these numbers.

Believe the "low top-end" numbers. The "high top-end" numbers are always suspect. :p

I was reading about the flooding down there in Austin, and North Texas. Was just on the phone with my sister up in Norman, OK, and she was saying that there are numerous lakes in OK and TX closed for the weekend, Travis and Texoma included. I hope everyone down there is OK, and not suffering too much damage.

I2D

Clay,
There was always a 10 percent BS factor until the GPS speedo put a stop to a lot of it.

BTW, we had some places in Southern and Central KS that received between 12-20 inches of rain over last weekend. It's soggy beyond belief, and there's plenty of floating debris out there in the lakes, but I'm unaware of any weekend closures up this way.

Actually, the only number off is Steve's dyno numbers. Based on his build he is putting out much more than the 700. His boat ran an average of 76mph with the stock 575SCi and is now running low 90's. Do the math... there was a lot more than 125hp addition there to gain 15-17mph. His dyno run was suspect all along as he will tell you himself.
So, that being said the numbers actually make sense.
Bob's boat, the boat I'm referring to, Steve's, the 103 mph boat all run GPS speedos and the numbers are very accurate.

No one is BSing here :hothead: If they were they would be BSing the other way. Bottom line is that it takes a lot of hp to get a Heat to run.
You asked for some numbers and the ones given to you at this juncture are accurate and have been gathered since 2001. Use them as you will but I can assure you this; It is what it is.

You have a fun project on your hands but one that's a little old hat to us :cool:
Keep us posted...

Dave

First you have to take operating conditions into consideration. My boat ran mid 80's all last year here. I took it to a radar shootout at Cumberland last year and it ran 89.2 at 5600 RPM. I pulled the engine and dyno'd it at 770 CHP at the 5600 RPM I was turning it, 815 AT 6000 rpm. Of course boating here you're losing about 8-9% power to the weather. I've set up quite a few 28's and the numbers work out pretty consistently. I suspect Steve is making much more than 700 HP. Steve ran my prop at Cumberland and got 90+ @ 5700 If memory serves me correctly. The last run I made with it here was 92.2 @ 6050 RPM. But that was on glass water and 95+ degree temps. You can see from the numbers the slip was much greater. That's because the boat is glued to the glass water. Run the same situation on 1-2' Chop and the speed would come up 3-4 MPH at that RPM, which is more indicative of the way Steve's ran at Cumberland (nice chop). The 28 Nordicflame is running has never seen true top speed, since it is used at high elevation. Also, remember my boat is an open bow. The balance on the boat is different than the closed bow version. From all I've seen the closed bow boat is a couple of MPH faster, all else being equal. Like I also mentioned I believe the ITS is costing me a couple of MPH. So, you add all that up it could equate to the differences we see.

Bob

I am just looking for some accurate numbers. That was the purpose of this thread. I NEVER said anyone was BSing. The numbers just did not add up. Nordicflame is supposedly making 300-400 more HP than steve, yet only running 3 mph faster. Doesn't add up does it!!!!
The number that is suspect to me, is Nordicflame's HP claim. I find it very hard to believe that a 548 ci motor makes over 1000 hp with 6 psi of boost on pump gas. No one else can seem to do it.
I think that steve's numbers are pretty close to where they should be. His dyno run made somewhere between 700 and 750 hp( I don't remember exactly) He added about 125-175 hp. That could easily add 15 mph, if he made 750 hp. Not to mention, that motor is a 502 with a small blower. With the boost that he is making, that is about what that motor should make for HP. There is nothing wrong with that and by no means should he be disappointed.
I didn't come on here to get in a pi$$ing match. I am not trying to outrun anyone. Just want to know what to expect for speed, ride quality and handling.

I agree with you Bob in that conditions will change speed quite a bit. Weight, temp and altitude will also play a big roll.

I built the 540 for that 25' Rage we had at Cumberland. It made 1005 HP at 8 psi boost with an M3 procharger. I dropped the boost to 6.5 and made 925. The engine in Nordicflames boat is similar, but has better heads and most importantly an R-tech intercooler. That's where he is coming up with his data. Remember, as has already been said. That boat is used at over 5000 ft. elevation and still running well into the 90's. He's never gotten to set it up and do any testing at sea level. So, those numbers don't compare directly to what we are doing.

Using the speed calculator from BAM marine's website validates virtually all of these numbers that we have documented. My boat ran 60 with a stock 375hp/496. Plug that into the program and change the HP to 770....It gives you 86 MPH. Hmmm, exactly what it ran. Steve's numbers work out to well over 800 HP. I also dyno'd a Raylar 496 at 553 and the boat ran 72.8. Again the numbers work perfectly. Nordicflames boat has seen 97(on the rev limiter) and the program says 1000 HP to get there. Again numbers seem valid.

No pissing match here...Geez man; we're just giving you numbers.

103 w/1200hp Paul Phaff
97+ w/estimated 1050+ (out of prop and 156kPa boost ~8.3 lbs @ Havasu)
93+ w/estimated 900+ (140kPa boost ~6 lbs @ 5000 feet)
92-94 w/923hp FTM motor
92-94 w/700hp Steve Zs 700+
84 w/ 734hp Larry Peto built 496HO Whippled
76 w/575SCi
73 w/553 Raylar
65 w/425 MAG HO
60 w/375 MAG

These are confirmed numbers...
I'm sure there are exceptions but you wanted a general baseline so there you have it.

Well..I can confirm the 65 w/425hp HO :rolleyes: Actually I saw a max of 67 going downhill one day :D

I used to kid BoatingBent (pre-Raylar :D ) that those speeds are great for keeping up with my Searay. We ran exact times at a radar run at Table Rock in 2005.

I can't kid him anymore, so I need a new target. :drink: Just kidding, 63.5 MPH would keep up for quite some time before I got too far ahead. :evilb:

Nordicflame
Thank you for taking the time to post all of the numbers. Yes, Steve's does seem out of whack with everyone else's. However, I had just used the same dyno maybe two weeks prior and it was on the money. That doesn't mean it can't change. That is why I was believing Steve's numbers so much.
It also seems that the boat starts taking a bunch of power once in the 90's. Best I can tell, it starts taking almost 20 HP per mph. In the 60's and 70's, it seems to take 14-15 hp per mph, which seems about right.
Sorry if it seemed I was being an a-hole. Just want some accurate info so I can tell my customer what to expect.
Also, this boat ran 72 with a 496 Mag HO
Thanks, Eddie.

What props are you using to get your best speeds,I'm running 944hp in my baja 272 (540 w/m-3 at 10 psi boost,afr heads),runs 89.8 fully loaded w/30 pitch labbed on rev limiter at 6000,runs 92.8 (best run ) light with 32 merc labbed 4 blade at 5700-5800.My motor was probably around 900-920 hp in the boat,on the dyno the innercooler was getting pretty cold water on the big number pulls. Curious what kind of props your having luck with. I tried a maximus last year,boat was a real slug and sheared off a max worx prop shaft after a few passes. In comparison to stock speeds my boat only ran 62-63 mph w/stock 502,Smitty

Strange...I tried many prop combinations in all temp ranges, wind/current directions and barely got 67 :confused: And that was only ONCE :rolleyes: Most people I know with the same boat got no better. A 5 mph difference is huge. Are you sure that number wasn't going over the waterfall? :eek:

One of our customers dynoed his 540/M3/Rtech combo at JimKid Motorsports last year and saw 1000 HP @ 6000 RPM with 9.5 psi intake boost (on cast iron heads), so Nordicflame's estimate of 1050 HP on better aluminum heads (therefore lower boost) sounds pretty close to me.

Intersting. That's about what all the Rage's I've tested run with the HO. Never seen more than 66 in a 28 running at our lakes, and that was under very good conditions, usually 63-64 range. Where and under what conditions were these numbers recorded? GPS? What prop and rpm? Is this a closed bow or open?

Eddie, I just went back and looked at Steve's dyno numbers to refresh my memory. They are posted in the Nordic section. Take a look at them and tell me what you think. You think it really made peak torque at 6500 RPM? Those numbers are totally out in left field for some reason...

I haven't seen the dyno sheet, only talked to Eric about it. He called me to get my take on it. He thought he had to much cam in it.
I did not run the boat that fast but I did see the recall on the gps speedo. Maybe it did go down a waterfall:D I can't explain it. That is why I was thinking these boats are faster than they are based on that. I don't really have any experience with this particular hull so I can't tell you why there is a diff. The boat is an 06. Has Nordic changed anything?

Tomcat, those are some very impressive numbers. I may need to think about using one of your setups. Nothing else is making that kind of power. I actually saw you and wanted to talk to you at Tickfaw but never got the chance. Congrats, Eddie.

A recent issue of HotBoat magazine had an article on GPS vs. Radar vs. pitot tube speedometer readings. It's been awhile since I read this, but learned that sometimes GPS readings have a glitch to a much higher reading temporarily when switching satellites or something. It can be 5 mph, and you will see this when reading a stored max speed reading, or pulling up a recall. This can account for a one-time, never to be repeatable performance. Maybe this is an explanation?

The owner told me that the boat RAN 72 on gps. I was not there so all I could do was hit the recall. He didn't specify if it was a one time deal or not. I will ask him next time I talk to him. I have personally seen a 5 mph difference between a gps/ plotter and a gps speedo in the same boat. I don't remember which was higher. Ultimately, there is only one way to find out. I guess I'll have the answer to my speed question soon enough.(well maybe not soon enough for the customer:D ) Thanks everyone for your replies, Eddie.

Eddie,
When I was racing, I kept a logbook of every pass.
I don't keep the same excellent records now that I did then with ET/RT/TS/RPM/EGT/ETC of every pass, but I can read my recall guages, and I'm pretty good at math. So here's my take:
1 my boat ran 76MPH stock when I bought it
2 next year, with an AZSM boost kit/ECU preprogramming, and a little prop work it ran 80
3 with the addition of Whipple intercooler and pullying up from 3.5" to 3" (6 PSI before and after the intercooler), it ran as you saw it December 85/86 (perfect conditions), and 83/84 in summer heat.
4 it ran a best of 94.5 this spring with Merc lab 32" B1 @ 5700
5 in summer heat and loaded (yesterday) it ran 89 @ 5750 with my regular 28" P5-X
I did run my 28" 90 lightly loaded at Cumberland @5850, and Bob's 29" also ran 90 @5700, and still pulling.
Bob and I and every other Heat tested here to our knowledge required 17HP to gain 1 MPH.
If you take Mercury's # of 550 PSHP on my 575SCI equalling 76 MPH (right in line all our #s), then it's taken 314.5 additional horsepower to get 94.5 MPH (94.5mph - 76mph = 18.5mph increase x 17HP per mph = 314.5 increase over stock 550 + 314.5 = a more realistic 864.5HP)
Take my word for it Eddie, the dyno #s don't add up to reality. There's no way the Nordic Heat (a BIG 28'er) will run in the 90s on 700HP. I wish they did.
A desktop dyno of my motor naturally aspirated is 700+HP. The BAM website says 826HP, currently configured (I don't know if that's bobtail or PSHP).
Based on your HP estimates for Nate and Jeff's motor, I think you'll knock on or exceed 100 in good conditions, and run mid 90s easily in heat and humidity. The extra torque of the 598" should make it more consistent/less weather sensitive than mine (+ or - 5MPH).
I have driven their boat. It needs rigging refinement, but handles similarly to mine, which is good. I would also impress on them and everyone else running these #s to wear good life jackets and hook up that kill switch!
Hope to see them back on the water soon. They're nice guys, but have had some tough luck so far.
Regards,
Steve

Bob,
I totally agree. There is no way a Heat is going to run in the 90s with 713HP:rolleyes: ...........
Please review my #s in the post above. Do you think they are realistic?
Thanks,
Steve

Those numbers sound right in line. Just had a thought. Don't you have an imco lower unit with a nose cone? If so that could account for the fact you're getting better slip numbers than me, and maybe a little more speed /hp.

Steve,
Thanks for posting. Your boat is the only one I have seen run. As I said, I have not seen your dyno sheet, so I can't comment on it. Since you have driven this boat, how fast did it run? They told me 72 but, as I said, I wasn't there so I have to take their word. I did see the recall, but that doesn't mean much. Forgot to mention earlier that the motor had a set of CMI headers. Don't know what they are worth for hp on the 496 HO. I have heard as much as 50 hp, but that sounds kind of high to me. Don't know.

The boat will get a lot of re-rigging. It needs a lot to make it reliable with this kind of hp. The last pair of motors that I did like this were for Eric Smith and made 967 and 963 hp. The only diff. in these motors are the heads. I used Dart CNC's on Erics and this motor has Brodix heads. It will be interesting to see the diff in hp.
All I knew is what I had heard. That was that your motor made 700-750 hp and the boat ran in the 90's. That was all I initially had to go on. I did not see the dyno sheet nor was I there, so I don't know if it is right or not. I don't even know what is in your motor. With those numbers, you could see my confusion when compared to everyone else's numbers. Sorry if anyone got their feelings hurt. This is a very passionate group and thats good. You guys can be a wealth of info for me in dialing in this boat. I will keep you posted, Eddie.