Ethanol Bad Gas?????
 

I have a 24 superboatw/ 225 1987 Yamaha - I was told that I got bad gas. I was driving across chesapeake bay & the engine died. She would not start so I had to get towed in. I talked w/ a tech & everthing is good electrically & mechanically so he feels it's bad gas. But I have never heard of an engine thet just shuts down, I have heard of bad RPM's or not getting on plain. Any thoughts?

I doubt it is the gas, but easy enough to find out by hooking up a portable tank with fresh fuel.

From Powerboat Magazine:

Ethanol Attraction
Paying attention to the new additive.
By Dick Debartolo

Are you having any "fun" yet with the new fuel dubbed E-10? It's called E-10 because of its 10-percent ethanol content. Actually the fuel blend is not new, but now its rollout to just about every place in the country is complete. I remember reading a little bit here and there about the new gasoline that contained ethanol, however, I didn't pay much attention to it. Well I'm paying attention now!

Ethanol is a corn-based additive that replaced MTBE, which some scientists believe is a carcinogen and has been associated with ground-water issues. According to a Yamaha bulletin I read, using ethanol in place of MTBE solves the ground-water issue. It seems ethanol has a very short life in the environment before it is broken down chemically by nature. But it creates new issues.

I didn't think any of this concerned me because my boats ran fine all summer long. But now that my 24 Pro-Line is up on land for the winter, I thought I'd go for a little spin in my 22 Farallon workboat. That little spin turned out to be very little indeed! After I idled out into the Hudson River, I inched the throttle forward and the workboat started to go on plane. Then it hesitated, stalled and refused to start again.

Fortunately I had Bob Kiloh, the Wizard of Wiring with me. He can get into tighter spaces easier than I can, and he quickly slid under one of the hatches to check the fuel filter. Inside the filter was lots of liquid, none of which seemed to be gas or at least a combustible liquid. It took us a long time using both a hand and an electric fuel pump to get all the nonburnable stuff into a container. Luckily, as we were working to get the Yamaha outboard engine running again, the tide was pushing us back toward the marina. We got close enough for Bob to jump off the boat and secure a line to the dock.

We finally did get the boat up and running, and we were able to make a little trip and return to my slip with no further problems. Once back at the dock, I started to reconstruct what I had put in my fuel tank. My last two fill-ups were at Englewood Marina in New Jersey. I thought I'd give the owner, Pete Monte, a call and ask if he had had any problems with his gas supply.

As soon as I described what happened Pete asked: "Did you drain stuff out of your fuel filter that looks a bit like weak orange juice?" Hmm, yes we did. He explained that the new E-10 fuel attracts greater amounts of water. And when the fuel in the tank sits for a long period of time it goes into "phase separation," so you end up with two separate solutions in the gas tank.

Once this happens, the engine won't run because the pickup sucks up the noncombustible liquid, which settles to the bottom of the tank. This was starting to make sense. I ran my Pro-Line all summer long problem-free, while my workboat sat idle. Actually I thought it was sitting idle, but it seems like it was really quite busy going into "phase separation."

Pete told me to get ahold of a product called Star*Tron from Star brite. I hadn't talked to Jeff Tieger at Star brite for quite some time, so I dropped him an e-mail explaining the gas-tank situation. He sent me a bunch of information on the problem and their new product.

The information is long and involved, and this column is short and unscientific, so here's the quickie version: Star*Tron is a fuel additive based on enzyme technology designed to prevent water-related fuel problems brought about by E-10. The enzyme package in the product disperses water derived from normal condensation into microscopic clusters, and allows the water to pass through the fuel system and engine harmlessly, preventing the build-up on the tank bottom that can contribute to poor performance, fuel gelling and corrosion.

Since this is winter and many boats are sitting idle, who knows what's going on inside your gas tank. You may have added stabilizers, but stabilizers do not prevent phase separation.

Speaking of gas tanks, I remembered a letter that appeared over a year ago in Powerboat (Teague on Tech, December 2005, Page 18). A boater worried that ethanol might be eating through his fiberglass gas tank. Turns out it can do that and eat some older hoses too. Bob Teague recommended replacing the fiberglass tanks. I quickly checked the specs on my boat and was happy to find they're marine-grade aluminum.

Now that I still go out on the Hudson in the dead of winter, I don't want to break down since getting help is pretty slim. Yamaha is recommending its new 10-Micron filter designed for use on boats with its outboards, so I installed one of them. Between Star*Tron, the Yamaha filter and the fact that we hopefully drained most of the gunk out of my fuel tank, I'm hoping for a trouble-free winter.

But in two months or so when it's time to put your boat back in the water, I wouldn't roam too far from help until you can determine if your fuel is exactly the way you left it. And while you're at the computer one night with a bit of free time just type "ethanol" and "marine fuel" in Google. I just did that and 772,000 results came up! Yep, it's a big problem. But many of those results are from boat and engine manufacturers with good advice. It's easier to do the research at your desk than while drifting in your boat with an engine that won't start. Trust me on this one.

scary part is some people still reccomend storing your boat for the winter with a full tank of that CRAP !!

I talked to the Service Manager @ Clarks Landing & he also thinks this could be the problem but... more water in the gas than E-10. I got some good info from him & I will try this out today. I will let you know what happens.

i had the same thing happen to me last summer on a merc 150. The fuel sucks. I added 2 more filters and always have sea foam in the tank. Heet in the yellow bottle was recommended also, I have not tried it but a fellow OSO got some bad gas at Tickfaw and HEET cleared it right up.

SeaFoam is great stuff! Today's fuel is not. Ethanol has not proven to be a decent replacement for MTBE, but the pressure to use it was incredible (farm lobbyists).
Is HEET still making the two different products? I remember there being one in a yellow bottle and one in red one. The red one is the ISO-HEET, which is their product that advertises that it actually absorbs water (has an isopropyl base). Just curious- we use to use the red bottle stuff when I worked for GMAC, and it would cure just about any water-in-fuel problems.

I've had the fuel filter that looks a bit like weak orange juice and almost a grease clump like build up as well. In three months I've changed filter's twice. This fuel is chit!

Very simple, Ethanol goes too chit after 60 days

mark,

you want the tank as empty as possible for the winter....the small amount of moisture in the tank is nothing compared to the mess you could encounter with a tank full of wasted fuel....

the ethanol fuel loses octane within 30-60 days even with stabilizers and then there is the chance of Phase separation which is when the ethanol and moissture mix together and settle to the bottom...well then your separators do not pull it out and you are running you brand new pair of $40,000.00 motors on ethanol/water mix....as you can imagine not really the best for your motor....

so doctors orders...get the tank as empty as possible prior to storage and then once the boat is done and out siphon out the rest so the tank is dry if possible for the winter...then come spring a nice fresh batch of high test along with new fuel water separators and your golden....

i am going to drain my tank dry before i store the boat....

you get your boat back yet????

gonna suck to have to spend 10 hrs breakin it in again....LOL

There was an article that I read a while ago and it was from Hawaii and boaters were experiencing a great deal of problems when using Ethanol based fuel. Ethanol was mandated to be used in all fuels on the Islands and the problems were mainly with Marine Engines and other small engines that would be stored for periods.

It breaks down some gaskets and fuel lines on older boats causing motors to clog with debris and at times damaging the engines. The only way I would run it is if you were going to run it completely out after use and use it when Non-Ethanol fuel was unavailable.

I don't think this is the exact article but they do have a lot of problems over their when using E10.

http://starbulletin.com/2007/02/18/s...pendleton.html

We have had a number of these 496HO high pressure boost pumps blow out from broken down fuel lines due to ETHANOL in the fuel. Here is a pic of the clogged dried rubber which feel like sand when rubbed between two fingers.

Funny, last night I just caught a segment of the evening news, which stated; new info was finding that ethanol was causing problems with the enviroment. This was actually coming from the enviromentalists. We can only hope it goes away.



Darrell.

Break-down of compounds not designed for use with ethanol is one of the big problems, especially with some of the older two-stroke engines/equipment. I've got some real problems here at the ranch with stuff like chainsaws, blowers and the like.
Startron may be an answer in helping with the phase separation problem if added to the fuel when it's fresh, but it's not going to help if it already has occurred, or if condensation has already invaded the fuel tank.
This is creating a lot more work in protecting our equipment; quite maddening when you think of the insane prices we're having to pay for the stuff!

So.... I got her running. I think it was more bad gas than E-10 I took off My Recor filter & it was bad, I saw a ton of seperation. I just removed my carbs & they looked like hell!!!! I just cleaned them I will put them on today. I am head across the bay & down the Choptank. Wish me luck, if not any Boat US Capt. out there?

The East coast must get a different E-10 than we do in the Midwest. We've been on E-10 for years here and I have never had a problem with fuel going bad over the winter in my boat. I always top the tank off (with either 89 or 91 to account for octane drop) and treat with Sta-Bil and the boat runs like a top every spring. I've read all the reports but real-world tests here show that the gas does not go bad as quickly as reported.

I've had the same experience here in No. Illinois, until recently. There are all kinds of problems with the fuel now since the manadated removal of MTBE.
I'm no chemist, but it seems obvious that ethanol-spiked fuel wasn't as a big a problem with MTBE in the fuel as it is now with it removed.

[QUOTE=omerta one;2267267]From Powerboat Magazine:

Ethanol Attraction


Speaking of gas tanks, I remembered a letter that appeared over a year ago in Powerboat (Teague on Tech, December 2005, Page 18). A boater worried that ethanol might be eating through his fiberglass gas tank. Turns out it can do that and eat some older hoses too. Bob Teague recommended replacing the fiberglass tanks.


omerta one Hey Big Daddy any chance you have that powerboat i could get a copy or buy it from u:cool-smiley-011:
thnx

[QUOTE=RunninHotRacing158;2445296]If your boat already has Fiberglass tanks what do you replace them with???????????????

I noticed this past fall that West Marine at LOTO was selling a new version of Stabil that was formulated for Ethenol blended fuel. It was considerably more expensive, but the 32oz bottle also treated 320 gallons versus the 80 gallons the regular large Stabil bottle treats.

Not sure there are any results on it yet since I think it got introduced last fall.....and the spring restarts are not here yet.

Anyone know anything about it?

Thnx John
sure would be nice to know if this stuff worx ,and who has tried it ..... its to late when the Gel coat is poppin off the size of dinner plates, print is showing thru, paint jobs are peeling & bubling & G*S is runnin along the stringers to the bilge pumps.. :p

Reading my RR owners manual. They say avoid ethanol blended fuels. For one it can eat not only fiberglass, aluminum as well, along with rubber and plastic bits. Sure they can create formulas to make it not lose octane. But don't think they can make something that stops it from decaying components that make up fuel systems.

Hey BIG DADDY how the H*LL do we avoid ethanol blended fuels when there puttin 10% in our gas ????????? and Peter has said 2% is BADD, 10% is REALLY BADD . talked to SKATER BROs in Texas, & New Orleans today and they dont have the ethanol added we do in the big city .... WTFs with that ??? any ideas
Thnx zudnic

Have no clue how to avoid it.... The owners manual was written in 1991. Discovered that by accident when changing spark plugs. That tidbit was a little interesting that they say avoid ethanol blended petrol. Its also cool that they even have the spark plug gap in the owners manual. But not the for sight that hippie liberal enviro wackos would effect America with this blended bull chit...... You might check into fueling up at a General Aviation airport. But check that out with your engine builder or Skater first. Sunoco sold 98 octane at their gas stations for cars. So wonder if 100LL avgas would be much different to that car fuel octane rating. Ethanol it corrodes aluminum and:


Borrowed from my car club forum and some of their tech advisors as others have read their manuals and asked what to do: :cool-smiley-027:

World has changed a lot since the 90s. That probably is the issue. My 600s manual does not indicate an ethanol blend is not tolerated, rather, as long as 91 octane is maintained you are ok. I suspect the other components, like hoses, are tolerant of ethanol in newer applications.

The question I have is more around sustaining the integrity of the fuel over long storage. LOTO has sustained non ethanol gas on the lake for a long time, so I haven't had to use ethanol blend. But I suspect this season it will be inevitable.

I am just wondering how the Stabil for ethanol works. There are times even during boating season that I might go 3-4 weeks before runs, so can I use the stabil for ethanol as a mitigation for problems?

I am an advocate of leaving my tank pretty empty over winter and filling with highest octane in the spring. And then changing the water separation filter early after running an hour or so.

I have been saying all along that I thought Sta-bil didn't work very well for w/ E-10 and to use star-tron. Glad to see sta-bil is reformulated. I have had great luck with star-tron and will continue to use it in everything.

hey Big Daddy so the star-tron is working ????? and has helped in stopping the tanks from Melting ????? are you a dealer for star-tron or just looking for helpful products to combat this B/S

Think thats where my car manufacture has problems. Most who own them store them over longer periods and use them rarely. A lot of the other service issues are Ferrari like issues that are more storage gremlins over the car itself. The Stabil does prevent the laquer goey stuff gas turns into. Hence some Ferrari owners complained about tuning carbs etc, almost every time they drove them. Must be Ferrari and not that they only drove it around the block once or so a year.

The other with mine ethanol causes corrosion in aluminum engines. But again think driving them is key in keeping them moisture free, etcetera. A few dealers and other specialists are saying if your RR has been in storage for 6 month or more have it towed into the shop. Have gas tank flushed out, and then be on your way....... Magazines my favorite section is tech columns because I like doing most stuff myself. For both boats and cars that people store for longer periods most of the little gremlins seem storage related. Still don't like that ethanol is more corrosive on rubber, plastics, etcetera.

The other part of buying ethanol blends is its hippie dippy liberal BS. For almost the same reason if I drive through Oregon, I try and avoid buying gas inside that state. After sort of working near the agriculture industry. They don't really have to employ illegal immigrants and government should not help them in this manner until they employ legal Americans. Like Oregon should let us Romans pump our own gas, not have some F'in welfare moron do it for us! So its also I dont like f'in liberalism ethanol is better for the environment BS and mechanical. Plus don't like industry welfare that employs and encourages mediocre work force..............................

Lets lobby to get this CRAP taken out! Gas absolutly does go bad much faster! Cars harder to start [reportedly from backflow preventer valves going to sh** from the ethenal] Fiberglass tanks on cruisers disolving cousing many many gallons of gas to get pumped OVERBOARD. [until bilgepump melts] Also increase in pollution from plowed fields and Nitrates from run off.

mercury,

How would a Lobby process evolve ?

Regards,

CCD

Merc what state are you in and what percentage of Ethanol is in your pumps ???? were at 10% and its badd chit :D
thnx Chris

:D

How would a Lobby process evolve ????? i think the same process/principle as class action lawsuits :p:D

Logic would ask who do you want to sue and why.

Logic would also suggest studies for implementing Ethonal Blend fuel focused on NON marine fuel usage. Marine fuel use is some small percent of total consumption and therefore could be considered a niche market. Major oil companies would probably admit they are not focused on niche markets. Therefore one may assume political oversight, relative to marine fuel. Surely, oil companies and legislature alike are not aware of the marine fuel impact. Such as,boats sit IN the water surrounded by high humidity,Ethonal is a wick for water. Water wicked into the fuel tank promotes phase separation. Regardless of the fuel tank material phase separation could be considered the root of safety,pollution and economic disparity.

Therefore,the best use of our resources may be to make our Legislators aware of this crisis. Perhaps the Lobby approach would amplify and expedite attention to the matter.

Some may have visited the web site of Americas Petroleum Industry,if not try api.org

You will be able to learn more about the present and future of Ethanol. The content will also disclose pertinent information necessary for considering a petition to exclude marinas from mandated Ethanol fuel sales.

api.org pretty interesting Lloyd , got your rig back at SKATER yet ???????:p

The Skater is still here.....The tanks have been drained and the last bit was absorbed by towels.....The gas was drained into open top 5 gallon buckets..... The 6"x10" aluminum plates were removed from the tank tops.... No sludge,flakes or other residue was found.....The inside of the tank was finger nail probed for hardness and found to be acceptable....The fuel filters were removed and cut apart....No residue or other foreign material was seen by the naked eye.

At the moment, we are sitting on our hands,watching the board reaction to the api.org and other available Marine Ethanol information.

Subject to the boards common consensus, a decision will be made for disposition of the tanks.

ttt

Sounded like the thread was going back up thursday from the call i got from OFFSHORESTEVE & email that there were too many tank threads and were combining them ...so your educated guess is to drain for winter layover ?????