Speed Vs. Safety
 

Just wondering what safety device do you have on your boat?

What safety features are included in your boat?

The post about the death of HTM founder Steve Coloumbe got me thinking. We all spend a ****load on money and time making our boats faster but how much time or effort do we spend on making them safer? Manufacturers spend a ton of $$$ developing faster and faster hull that require less and less power to achieve superfast speeds. At teh same time bigger and bigger engiens are being produced. How much efforts do biulder put into saftey aspects. Cars are crash tested, designed to handle massive collosions, have crumple zones, airbags ect. What do we have on a boat a lifejackets and an engine kill switch. Our race machines as a mater of fact are biult so they aren't as strong and as a result are faster. Would a formuls car EVER be biult this way??? NO. Race teams put TONS of effort into making the cars safe for the driver. I think maybe its time we all start taking a good look at soem safety procedures in our boats.

Earlier today i watch a horrible wreck happen on teh highway a car flipped 4 or so times and was horribley twisted and desroyed. I don't know if they survived or not (i was going the other direction but i actually watched it take place and called 911) but i can tell you that they had a chance to survive. If a wreck or equal magnitude happend in a boat would they have any chance at survival in an accident that is pretty much a worst case scenario?

[ 01-13-2002: Message edited by: puder ]

I think I may have replied to a thread like this once before. But I have the SAFETY IGN. KILL SWITCH installed on my boat along with all the mandatory Coast Guard items. I wear the approved LIFEJACKET (up to 100mph) w/a HANDHELD VHF and a WHISTLE attached to it. If you're thrown from the boat and are conscious, it doesn't do you any good if the radio is in the boat. For my size boat and it's speed, I choose to wear the FULL FACE RACING HELMUT. Probably the biggest safety item I carry along is, COMMON SENSE. I know my boat's limitations and therefore I do not exceed them. Other people may disaggree about exceeding my boat's limits. :eek: :D :D ;)

[ 01-13-2002: Message edited by: SHARKEYMARINE ]

Kill switches for both driver and passenger!!!! :cool:

Its a good point taken, HTM death has me thinking alot more about safety, it scares the hell out of me, I spoke with Steve several times, he was a super guy, his video of his wife and two kids were cute, I realize life is to short, cherish every moment with your loved ones.

What certain steps can I take besides the lanyards(kill switches and pfds to improve safety on my Active Thunder. Any help would be appriecieted :D

The worst thing about this tragic event is how many people commented about the safety issues before this happened. Now none of us can speak about that event, but we all can take better care of ourselves, and our boating companions. I know I will start wearing my life jackets more. I always use my kill switch, but while I do some re-rigging this winter there will be kill switches put in for my passengers.
Any other thoughts of what to do ? Other than the most important COMMON SENSE !

I make it a habit to go over all the nuts and bolts prior to going out. Drives and steering bars are a terrible thing to come off at any speed... :eek: :eek: And of course a little LOCKTITE doesn't hurt either. ;)

as for what i can do i am not sure.

I was refferrgin more to manufacturers to start biulding in some safety features. If they don't exist design them. Yes design costs are expensive and soem manufacturers operate on razor thin profits, but i think safer boats would tend to popular.

On race boats enclosed canopies for teh styupid fast one are a real good idea. I saw the APBA year wrap up and the cockpit video from Jack Carmody's boat is kind of chilling to watch, knowing they were moments away from a bad carash. You can see him in the canopy and the open roof. Pods on pleasure boats might not be the answer, if they are in fact used as pleasure boats. a 150mph 30' cat in my eyes isn't really a pleasure boat. And anyone taht is planning on running there pleasure boats in such a manner should take a few extra moments when considering IF they can make there boat that fast to if teh SHOULD make thier boat that fast. I konw after teh jack carmody's death many racers began considering converting from canopies to pods, Maybe pleasure boat should also start considering some kind of pods. Not liek eth raciong style pods but soemthing a little more like the advatage 40' hardtop, poker run version. It leave space for passengers but at the same time would provide some more protection.

Or mayeb even some more basic stuff, Like better designed bolster or buckets. Maybe padded dashes of some sort. Or mayeb even soem new kind of restraint system that allows you to be secure while running or in even of a crash but at the same time allows to you get out of the boat in case of a roll.

What idas do you guys have? Hell we are the biggest Offshore community we should have some decent ideas stirring about.

Im unclear to the reason you would have kill switches for your passengers. If a passenger flew out and the engines were killed you would have to root around, find another set, install them,(remember, they take their half of the lanyard with them) and get the engines refired (which could take awhile), then turn around and go get them, if the person was knocked unconcious, it might be too late. to take that further, if two or three people fell out you would have to find and replace three sets before you could refire. If you cant accomplish this your boat is dead in the water and the closest craft to the accident scene is out of commision and unable to provide transpotation for possibly seriously injured people :confused: :confused: Doug

I just mentioned the advantage 40' becasue i know it has a hardtop. I didn;t think it was fully enclosed. I though the back was open. That woudl provide protection for a stuff or even a roll. But when water got it it wouldn't be liek teh pods on tommy bahama or somethign like that.

Here is another though. I am a rescue diver and got certified as a such about 5 years ago. We coudl all put "Spare Air" cans in our boats as a safety feature. They are the baby air tanks with the reg on top. You coudl easily mount them in your boat. They aren't even that expensive. They would act as a poor mans air system. Hell the "holsters" for them could even be integrated in bolster or seats where they could be gotten quickly in an emergency.

twin that is a good point. Maybe some kind of work around could be included like switch that would by by-pass the rip cords if pulled, so that way if teh engines were cutout by the passenger cords the driver coudl just flip teh switch an refire quickly without worrying about finding the clip jammies. It would need to be made in such a way that is could only be used for a little while or placed were it wouldn;t be convenient to just flip the switch instead of using eth pull cords.

[ 01-13-2002: Message edited by: puder ]

No one EVER runs in my boat at WFO without LIFEJACKETS minimum and at ANY event where there is more then just me and my guests HELMETS are MANDATORY! Sure I have gotten some laughs, but ya know what? I'd rather be laughed at than burried. Also, Kill switches for driver and throttleman, gloves are also mandatory. I also have three fire extinguishers, inflatable safety raft, full first aid kit, big orange flag, flares, extra towels, etc. etc.etc. I am a firefighter and racer and I have seen to many bad things happen.

Also, as mentioned above, you MUST, ABSOLUTELY MUST know the limits of your boat. No matter how many times you have been out there it is NEVER EVER THE SAME! The only thing that is consistant about water is that it is CONSISTANTLY INCONSISTANT! I VERY RARELY run my boat WFO and next to NEVER at full trim. If I do it is for a brief moment and then i back it downa bit and rim it in. So what if I am running 85 to 90 instead of 100? DOes that make me any less of a person? I sure don't think so, and I would much rather live to run another day. Please use caution my friends.

THE SINGLE BIGGEST SAFETY ITEM...NO ALCOHOL FOR ANYONE until the cover is on the boat! PERIOD! NO QUESTIONS ASKED! Not even for passengers! Good thread!

Shane :cool:

[ 01-13-2002: Message edited by: Shane ]

[ 01-13-2002: Message edited by: Shane ]

Actually my own post has got me thinking :eek: :eek:....... Lets say Im driving and get thrown out,the lanyars kill the engines and do their job, but Im the only one, best to have a spare set of lanyards in the boat and make sure somebody knows where they are so someone else could refire the boat and come and get me.....

Good point about the lanyard override switch,a 2-minute educational course on safety for everyone on board would cure these concerns.
Clack P4-11

Spare lanyards, or an overide are simple !

As for as a kill switch for a pass. that's also simple I would be more people are hurt in offshore style boats when they some how loose footing while in the rough stuff, and the driver never lifts. I a passenger was to fall to the floor or backwards over a bolster, you'll be a whole lot happier to get your boat restarted, then to figure how to get that person to the hospital

[QUOTE]Originally posted by puder:
[QB]Maybe some kind of work around could be included like switch that would by by-pass the rip cords if pulled, so that way if teh engines were cutout by the passenger cords the driver coudl just flip teh switch an refire quickly without worrying about finding the clip jammies. ]

I have just the one that Ibelieve should be the ONLY type of kill switch installed.
Some may disagree because it can allow you to run with out it
Here is a copy of the text from CP Performance web page were I ordered mine from. I have the KS-22 item for twin engine use.

Part No. : 855-KS-2 Category Brand Name
Electrical - Kill Switches T & H Marine
Saf-T-Stop Cut Off Switch - Single I/O with Coiled Lanyard
For all inboard/outboard, inboard, dual inboard/outboard and dual inboard installations. Meets requirments of existing law covering mandatory use of emergency stop switches. Extra strong cloth covered self-retracting lanyard. Black matte finish for attractive appearance. Mounts in a 1-1/2'' diameter hole. Overall dimensions of switch housing are 2-3/4'' x 2'' and requires 1-1/2'' behind panel. Dual engine switches provide two completely isolated circuits to prevent feedback from on engine to the other.

Price for the KS-2 is 18.95
KS-22 for twin motors is 21.95
It was very easy to install Just find a location close to your ignition switch or you will need to run more wire.
This switch allows the crd to clip UNDER the switch. If the cord would get pulled and you do not have it, such as a passenger getting tossed or yourself and your passenger needs to drive, you can just push the toggle up without the lanyard and run.
I however could not see having one for hte passengers :( I can just see someone not liking the way you are handling or get scared and yank the cord :( you have no control when needed. :(

I agree, if someone is getting tossed around the cockpit of the boat, cutting the engines (slamming on the brakes (at least in my boat)) I feel would add another unwanted physical force to the equation. Let alone the fact that cutting the engines at an inoppertune time could be disasterous to the boat itself(i.e. stuff)

We have those type of kill switches in our raceboat, they work great and you don't need spare lanyards.

Rob ;)

Have that same kind on my boat too.

As always, you have no control of the unexpected, it sounds as if the HTM may have suffered a mechanical failure.

Sometimes it takes a tragic event to change the way people think, and i feel it has convinced me that everyone on my Cat will be wearing a PFD at all times ,from here on in!
I sometimes cruise without a PFD on , but i have never Raced anyone without wearing my PFD,and engine kill lanyard, cause you simpily don't know what can happen!

I just can't understand how the guys aboard the HTM, would take a 150 MPH Cat out on the lake without wearing PFD's, it may have been ,cause they where just going to do a Quick test on something that didn't require going real fast, but it does leave me wondering....
:(

TTT

Puder, I don't think anyone answered your question yet.

When boats use stonger material it allows them to be thiner and lighter. Since we don't see many hull failures this is not an issue. What is an issue is the deck to hull joint. This needs to hold together in the event of a stuff.

Aside from the obvious answer of wearing a roof, there are only things that I have seen a manufacture do to improve safety.

First it appears to me that Skater figuered out how to make a big cat lean into the turn.

Ever make a 90 mph turn in an old Chris Cat? They liked to lean to the outside at about 10 degrees. A bit un nerving to say the least.

Second, the back seat backrest in an Outerlimits. You literally slip into a bolster that hugs your mid section. Amazing security as speed even while sitting.

Otherwise what can be done. Well you could get a study to see if driving while sitting is safer than standing and if being seat belted into place is better than being thrown free in a crash.

During the 30 million dollar government study into boating safety it dawns on someone that it's nuts to let boats run at 190mph legally on a Sunday afternoon and that all boating over 40 mph should be banned in the name of boating safety.

People who run cats know that a roll over in a turn can happen at any time and without warning. It's all part of living on the edge for a few minutes.

So the answer is ---- Shut up Puder cause no one else is asking and you really don't want them to.

If your not living on the edge your taking up too much space.[

don't work for anyone just got certified a few years back. I was thinking about joining my local firedeptment rescue team but just never got around to it. Not to mention don't really have the time. I did teh training just so i can be safer when i do recreational diving. Its safer for em cus i learn more about my own diving and can help other divers in case of emergency.

Ron. Goverment studies of course aren;t teh answer after all they got us the lovely 55mph speed limit. There have got to be more thing that can add some safety to fast boats. To take the attitude of "if you donlt like it shut up" is what can casue a stagnation of development and stall the sport. There have been many significant advances in et last few years. I am not saying that we need bumber boats painted flourescent yellow with everyone on board with water wings (except you, we know you like em ;) ) but why not try to include some safety into them. Going a 150 mph in anything isn't safe. But on water it is really dangerous. What is teh harm in trying to make boats safer? Improvements now will ead to faster boats down eth line. Open wheel race cars are a great example. Tehy have gotten so fast that they need to limits the speed they run so handling and safety features can catch up with teh faster speeds. Wheneth do the cars will again be running faster still.

I think you suggestion about hull and deck joinery is a damn good one. FYI i respect yoru opninion as a racer, it takes a big set and soem serious skill to race a boat, especially down in jersey wher eth ocenas can get seriously snotty liek in point pleasant.

So, what do you suggest?

mine KS-22 switch-and to realy be on the safe side I should not carry but I do sometimes more than four people on deck so all will have at least one hand hold.and my vests all have leg straps,in case you are knocked out without them you could slip out the bottom of the vest.If someone dies and nothing is learned then then the life ment nothing.it is good to see people now asking themselfs am I ready for when I loose control,and I feel that as speeds climbes the chances of this will only becomes greater. be safe first have fun second .

Puder, I think ALOT about this exact subject with boats, I am an engineer for high performance vehicles at GM and I deal all day with interior design, occupant saftey, and every other aspect of occupant concerns so I am pretty well versed in saftey, ergonomics, astetics, and just way too much **** that nobody thinks about or would even want to. Now design is my game all day, and I look at my true love which is boats and ther really is nothing done adressing the occupant saftey issue, and the truth is the boat manufacturers just dont have the budget to pay for someone like me to completely rethink how all these factors need to be adressed. For each vehicle we have entire teams of people that are experts on testing our interiors for occupant impact, and unless you are strapped in it's all out the window, it's about equal to testing an occupant in a rollover without a seatbelt on, or with the waves, think of Ivan Stuart running the baja 1000 in a convertable without a seatbelt or helmet on, that's what boating equals. I have my 32 advantage which has a ride smoother than any 32 I've ever rode in, but still I always take it easy for my passengers sake when it gets snotty, and you know nobody wears a vest when were out having fun. Unless you are willing to completely change the design and freedom associated with boating, it's really up to the driver to keep thier passengers safe. What you are suggesting would entice legislators to put saftey mandates on boats which would change boats to have saftey measures which would probably require all passengers to be belted in with 5 point harness's, which would require a much more secure seat mounting than 4 screws into a fiberglass sandwiched backing plate, it would probably outlaw open cockpits, because if a boat did flip it would do severe head trauma to a passenger strapped into the back seat. there's alot of issues that I could keep going and type for the next two hours and kill all of you with the boredom of occupant saftey, but let's let this subject go before some tree huggin hillary type senator reads this and thinks it's a good idea, because thats really all it takes is a suggestion from the right person to change the face of pleasure boating forever. There are so many things that could improve boats from my standpoint, as far as how they could be designed better, just from a convience/ergonomic/visual astetics standpoint, but I feel boating as a whole, the industry its self is very primitive, kind of like the first model a's in the 1920's, with wagon wheels, and primitive suspension, but now put a huge horsepower motor in it, but most importantly, do barrier testing on it and see how it does from a saftey standpoint. That's where the boating industry is at from my standpoint, but I love it still as we all do!! Boats are put together and tested a little, and thrown into production to generate profits. There's no government regulation on much of anything that I know of, anyone with the means could pull a company name build a boat, and sell it, it could be the biggest hunk o crap on the water that would snap in half in a 2 foot chop, but the point is nothing would stop that from happening, until it actually happened and a court stopped the manufacturer from selling it. I dont want these type of regualtions to happen to the boating industry, but thats what happened to the automobile, and thats one of the many reasons prices have gone up so much. Sorry about the lengthy babble, but unless you want a $200,000 20 foot rinker, lets just all try to be safe boaters, and hope these tragities are few and far between.

[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: advantage_ROB ]

p.s. puder, how was my spelling?

rob i hear what you are saying.

I just think there has to be some kind of easy stuff that can help out. Mayeb soe kind of very small life jackets that aren;t so goofy looking that way more people would wear them when pleasure boating.

Ron. I actually do have one idea for laying up hulls differently Portion of the mold could be made together. Make the hull and deck as one piece. Not the entire deck but portion of it. The mold could be made in two pieces than they woudl bolt togehter while making the boat. When ready to be pulled the top would unbolt and the hull could be pulled. It would allow for more stability in teh hull that way the rest of teh deck could be affixed to teh molded in portions. I'm not a manufacturer but it seesm to me it woudl make thign a little stronger.

Rob really spelled out what I wanted to say. It is up to the Captain of the vessel to choose a stong hull and look after the safety of its passengers. After all, most boating accidents don't involve other boats. They are caused by Captain error or running to fast for the conditions.

As for live jackets, check out the SOS suspenders. Not unsightly at all.

I think Rob said it nicer than me but, shut up Puder you really don't want to know this answer. ;)

FYI, I read puders post and replied my post, now I've read the rest of them, and some of the other things I wanted to say are mentioned. Seats, alot could be done to help here, the 40 advantage hardtop, I was going to mention it, but I didn't want to seem like advantage freak, because I have one, but was at the factory a few times during develpoment of the hull and hardtop, and spent days talking my very opinionated ideas with harry, and gary furgeson, and that was something I really liked about advantage, was the design, a designed hull, not a trial and error hull, and they were so receptive to my ideas, they really did want the best product on the market. Another good suggestion, handheld scuba canisters, inexpensive, but they need to be in your lifeline jacket that you wear, but design flaw, they dont fit in the pocket, new pocket, all relatively easy things to fix now that people decide to think it's important, but there's no regulation. Anyone with lots of bucks to pay for design, production, and marketing of boating saftey items feel like talking to me??, how about any manufacturer's? There's alot that could be done, and for obvious reasons I like to keep my ideas to myself, but the sad part for you and I is that boating is expensive enough already, and we the consumer are the ones that pay for it, period. The carlos and charlies accident, I havent seen a video, but a friend of mine explained the upside down crashing waves into the canopys at a hundred and who knows what. Now this could be calculated to see what kind of force that is, and redesigned to withstand that type of impact, but major cockpit redesign, breakaway occupant pod?? who knows, all possible, but at what cost? One life is definitely worth more than any ammount of money, I know that much, but I also know I hate how much boats cost already. As for the hull/deck glassing together, I really want a Riendell Armada for the design, stuff it all you want, (right Chris) now the Cigarette 36, glassed inside and out, a little trick I bet they got from armada or skater, I dont know who but someone did it first. Mark my words, soon to be the industry standard, still need a rub rail for docking in my opinion, but lets see who, and how soon everyone starts doing this. Innovate, Innovate, Innovate, that's how it gets safer, but these things take time like a model A to a new 2002, lots of years, lots of improvement, lots of differences and ideaology.

ps, and puder I wasn't at all saying shut up like RonP suggested I'm not like that at all, I just know alot about this stuff, and every day think boats, and it really ties into this subject, I'm glad you started this topic!

[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: advantage_ROB ]

Pudder my Avanti has both glassed together from factory

I think the old Araski race boat was the first to be built using only one mold. It had no rub rail at all.

Puder, no disrespect intended. Did I spell that right? This is one subject that we don't want any treehugger to look into or as Rob says, the price will kill you instead of the boat.

Im sorry guys - but if you let the "safety" guys control your life, you will have a very boring life. They will have you wearing a helmet in the shower.

Point in fact is the latest auto fatality accident in my neck of the woods. Mother with two small kids. She is leagally strapped in. The two kids are in the front seat not strapped in. She takes her eyes off the road for who knows what reason. She runs under an 18 wheeler. She is strapped, cannot duck and is decapitated. The air bag goes off catching the kids. They walk away.

Now which piece of safety gear worked. Point is you cannot know what type of accident is ahead of you. Dead because of a stupid decision by the driver is dead, whether you are wearing a PFD or not and as already stated - a vast majority of accidents are caused by the driver.

The only piece of safety gear that can really make a difference is a driver with the well being of the passengers and him (or her) self as a the main thought every second spent behind the wheel.

This is true on land as well as water.

Any person who can come up with a way to make this happen will have my vote for king.

LT

i agree with what youar esaying being a smart drier is themost important factor but some safety improvments would be good.

I have an old boat and have recetly installed grab handles becasue there was nothign to hang onto if it got rough and the olders baots don't really have them. Its the little stuff like taht that can help.

FYI i am gonna let this thread die. If you come up with any new ideas starta new thread that way tree huggers won't read this. F***ing Dirty Tree Huggin Hippies!!!!! :D :D

Heres an idea Ive been kicking around: For the middle back seat passengers, mount some straps to the back seat base that would loop back to themselves to give the centre back seat passengers something to hold onto....Ive actually looked back and seen them reaching across and sharing the handholds with the person beside them.....(do you think I was scaring the **** out of them?.....naaaa, they were just fooling with the teeth gritting) I was going to cut up some tie downs, colour keyed of course....I was also going to mount some :eek: :eek: on the front edge of the sunpad also, so when youre sitting up there you would have something to hold onto....sometimes you hit cruiser wakes in the no wake zones and could use something.

Twin 29 A buddy of mine mounted short dog leaches to the floor, between rear seat riders. Worked very well, helps hold you to the floor. You
r choice of colors

I have spent a lot of years in offshore racing.
I went 144mph in a 44ft stand up cat in 1988. That was my intro to race boats. Since then I have been well over 150, I was too scared to look.
Looking back I was lucky, a lot of times, because most of the people I was with were the best there is.
From when I was a kid I remember Rocky Aoki changed from stand up to sit down and did some major internal injuries.
It is hard to remember that water is 6 times denser than air. What you think is protecting you is not. When you sit behind a canope you feel safe. Try sitting in the wind at 70 mph. you won't do it for long.
I have been gathering data ,working on seats, working on instalations ect.. there are answers to the problems some expensive some cheap. The easiest thing to do is slow down and have fun. Tech will catch up some day and take the fun away. Accidents will always be there it is down to lessening the damage. The things that have hapenened this year can only help us try to make things safer by analizing the failures and changing them.
pat W

The ARASAKI 1 piece mold was quite expensive for the first boat. The only entry to the inside was through the cockpit and engine compartment. :eek: When the boat was finished inside the mold, they had to cut the mold off the boat. Having dinner with the designer and owner at Benihana in Key West he asked the waitress to get him an EGG. He then stated that was where he got his design from, because of the strength of the roundness. No doubt the boat was very strong, it's just that the tunnel design and weight of it were too poor to perform. A second mold was built, but I think at least this time they made a 2 piece mold that can be separated after the hull was completed. Having built boats and know the fumes involved, I sure hope those guys had a good OXYGEN SUPPLY. :eek: But now back to the topic...The boat buyers these days are quite informed, especially if they come to OSO first. More and more Manufactures are now glassing the hull and deck together maybe not because the want to, but the boating public is now demanding it. Yes it's more $$$ but I would prefer it too. ;)

I've seen alot of boats having repairs at Viscious one's shop, and looking at the hull/deck joint and the overlap is backwards as far a a safe design is concerned. The top half overhangs the lower half, which is how rub rails are set up to cover. Its all backwards. Overhang the lower half, and in the event of a stuff, it would really lessen the force of all the water pressure on the top deck only as the water would pass the joint cleanly, as opposed to catching the lip created by this "backwards" joint. Simple design fix...

In my cat, I mounted grab handles, and the middle back seat passenger was basicly on thier own. I took a bumper and looped the rope thru the bottom of the front seat so they at least had a rope to hang on to at 100mph+ in a 26' cat. Found out the rope was prefered over the grab handles.

safety?
 

When you're racing, you are required to undergo a thorough inspection of all the connections and safety features of your hull and driver equipment - before you are allowed on the water. Is there a good reason why we shouldn't be doing the very same inspections of our own stuff before we go out to do speeds that are almost as high as racing speeds - and under much less controlled conditions? Don't think so. The best safety features is us!