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Originally Posted by Edward R. Cozzi
(Post 2305289)
Just re-read your original thread starter.
Soft cabin or cockpit soles were covered in "Surveying 101". Twenty years experience? Of doing what...ASSUMING? If the cracks in the bottom are dripping water, a Skipper Tramex non-invasive moisture meter would have woken up the neighborhood telling everybody there's a trapped moisture problem and probable wood rot. As a surveyor you cannot be in a hurry to finish one boat to get to another. No matter how good the boat LOOKS, a surveyor cannot be lulled into a false sense that the boat doesn't have hidden problems that take a little more trouble to locate. I'm going to write a book that's going to become the surveyor's bible like Chapman's is to Seamanship! These damn motoryacht and sportfisherman surveyors have no business even looking at a high performance boat! There are a few local survey houses that think I'm a real ***** because I told them this. Several others use me when they get one and they are not embarrassed by a surveyor that doesn't understand these boats at all. Just like any business, a couple of bad ones even give the good ones a bad name. |
I agree with this advice...
Originally Posted by klaw
(Post 2305892)
Why with extent of the damage are you so sure seller did not know?
You need to hit back real hard as fast as you can ask seller if this was such an honest mistake to pay for repairs or take it back |
Originally Posted by Jigsaw89
(Post 2306419)
I agree with this advice...
I am not 100% sure, nor is my friend, but my instinct tells me he is being truthful. The boat is being pulled off the trailer tomorrow to determine the extent of the damage, should have a better idea this week just how long the damage has been there. |
good luck to you and your friend hope its not as bad as it seems
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Just returned from the shop. Had a few other small chips on the starboard side of the hull that were pointed out and missed by the surveyor. Rained here yesterday and today so can't put a moisture meter on it until the boat gets inside. Rough estimate to fix all damage, pending moisture meter test; $1500-$1800. Ouch!!! Think the surveyor is going to be willing to offer up payment? Will find out next week when the true cost numbers come in. Thanks to everyone that has chimed in with opinions and suggestions. I will keep everyone updated on the outcome.
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Surveyor says that the soft floor is NOT due to moisture, it is a factory defect where the floor isn't supported enough? Huh? Is this really possible?
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from wellcraft , anything is possible
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Originally Posted by hunster
(Post 2311622)
from wellcraft , anything is possible
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Originally Posted by wet_rat
(Post 2311616)
Surveyor says that the soft floor is NOT due to moisture, it is a factory defect where the floor isn't supported enough? Huh? Is this really possible?
As far as the gel/glass work on the bottom, the $1500-1800 seems pretty cheap. I'm guessing that is just for a general prep sanding and then spraying over with gel and feathering it out. |
Originally Posted by wet_rat
(Post 2311616)
Surveyor says that the soft floor is NOT due to moisture, it is a factory defect where the floor isn't supported enough? Huh? Is this really possible?
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I'm sure they didn't even use marine grade wood is what I meant. It's probably rotten for sure. I have a scarab and have had to replace some rotten wood . I just wonder what they were thinking when they did some of the design. Fortunatly I haven't had to get into the bulkheads or stringers. I did have some issues under the rear seat and where the front bolsters mount to the floor. All the wood under the upholstry was shot , I mean all of it, rear bench , side panels , sundeck , it is 13 years old too.
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Originally Posted by Griff
(Post 2311668)
I highly doubt that. I'm sure he didn't check it with a moisture neter either.
As far as the gel/glass work on the bottom, the $1500-1800 seems pretty cheap. I'm guessing that is just for a general prep sanding and then spraying over with gel and feathering it out. You're correct--the surveyor never even had a moisture meter in hand during the entire survey. Body guy offers 5 year warranty on his work so he must be doing something right. |
Originally Posted by Edward R. Cozzi
(Post 2311747)
I'm sorry, but I'm not buying that at all. Wellcraft has been building high performance boats long enough not to make a freshman mistake like that. I suspect when you cut out the soft floor you'll find some wood rot in the structure underneath.
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I agree with you, wet rat, and sympathize with your friend in this situation, but do you truly believe that a reasonable judge will award your friend a judgement against the surveyor even though the contract contains a disclaimer?
Originally Posted by Edward R. Cozzi
(Post 2305067)
As a surveyor I hate reading stuff like this. Yes, we all have disclaimers in our paperwork because some buyers think that a survey is a guarantee that nothing will EVER go wrong with the boat.
Your friend needed a better surveyor. |
Originally Posted by Jigsaw89
(Post 2312243)
I agree with you, wet rat, and sympathize with your friend in this situation, but do you truly believe that a reasonable judge will award your friend a judgement against the surveyor even though the contract contains a disclaimer?
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If I were your friend and have the intention of suing, I would get another survey now before any work is done. Have a really good surveyer find every little screw that needs replaced and tehn get an estimate for those all the repairs.
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That why Ed, I will be calling you in the next several months for a survey. This is my biggest fear buying used!! Your right about Hi-Perf. hulls needing that extra hard look at. E-Mail me Ed with your price lists and phone numbers.
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Originally Posted by Griff
(Post 2312273)
If I were your friend and have the intention of suing, I would get another survey now before any work is done. Have a really good surveyer find every little screw that needs replaced and tehn get an estimate for those all the repairs.
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Good luck. Check out my stringer repair post if you want to see what started out as a small repair.... Three years later I am going to have every inch of the boat replaced. The only thing that will be left when I am done is the outermost hull and deck. Every stringer, Transom, cabin sole core, bulkheads...... all new. Look at the damage that you see and know that it is going to be MUCH worse. I don't mean to be a downer for your buddy but that is the nature of the beast. Is that hull cored? If so then look out the core is holding water and you got HUGE issues.
Jon |
Originally Posted by wet_rat
(Post 2311044)
. Rough estimate to fix all damage, pending moisture meter test; $1500-$1800. .
it sounds like you got this repair quote from a body shop. There's a reason good marinas don't repaint Buicks and for that same reason you need to have this boat looked at by a marine fiberglass specialist. It's not cosmetic damage if water leaks into the boat. If it was hit hard enough to crack the glass to the extent that it leaks, it may have also hit hard enough to pop a stringer loose. It didn't sound from your description that the boat suffered some impact with an object so that leaves a hard landing resulting in structural damaage. Most likely the cabin interior will have to be partly to mostly removed to do this fix. That's going to cost some serious coin. |
WTF? As much as it hurts id make the buyer happy . I know its used and as is and shown but WOW Oh and definitely jack it to the surveyor to the best of your legal abilities. He needs to feel some pain or else the next victim of his shoddy work lays waiting. |
Ouch - what a mess.
1) The repair quote sounds way too low. I would think atleast 2 to 3X what you have listed 2) If it does only cost $1,800 to fix - then its not worth lawyering up. I would get another survey and find out exactly what you are getting yourself into. If its the worst then just auction it off with a list of repairs and cut your losses short. |
Originally Posted by Chris Sunkin
(Post 2313071)
That's hardly worth talking to a lawyer about. Go to small claims court and take 50% (small claims almost always settled disputes in the King Solomon fashion)
it sounds like you got this repair quote from a body shop. There's a reason good marinas don't repaint Buicks and for that same reason you need to have this boat looked at by a marine fiberglass specialist. It's not cosmetic damage if water leaks into the boat. If it was hit hard enough to crack the glass to the extent that it leaks, it may have also hit hard enough to pop a stringer loose. It didn't sound from your description that the boat suffered some impact with an object so that leaves a hard landing resulting in structural damaage. Most likely the cabin interior will have to be partly to mostly removed to do this fix. That's going to cost some serious coin. You're wrong in your assumption. This is a boat fiberglass shop that gave the estimate. All the boats he had sitting around looked pretty damn good, no waves that I could see. |
Originally Posted by 1bagger
(Post 2304053)
The last person that was perfect got nailed to a cross
(Subway. Yum. Somebody should start a subway thread.) Anywho.... The last person who was perfect had a son who was nailed to a cross. He was human like us, got tempted and fell down just like us, therefore had to suffer pain like us, die like us, the bonus that he (and us too) got was the Resurrection. When He became "perfect" He was divine, not human. His mom on the other hand, was born with an Immaculate Heart and without sin. Her grace was the reason that she was chosen. She was assumed directly into Heaven. This date is celebrated on August 15th as the Feast of the Assumption of Mary. Mary was the only "perfect human." Great trivia question. Next issue: will it help sell your boat if you put a statue of St. Joseph upside down in the bilge? :) |
Originally Posted by fund razor
(Post 2318334)
As far as I understand the story...typing from my desk while I eat lunch here at the Motherhouse.
(Subway. Yum. Somebody should start a subway thread.) Anywho.... The last person who was perfect had a son who was nailed to a cross. He was human like us, got tempted and fell down just like us, therefore had to suffer pain like us, die like us, the bonus that he (and us too) got was the Resurrection. When He became "perfect" He was divine, not human. His mom on the other hand, was born with an Immaculate Heart and without sin. Her grace was the reason that she was chosen. She was assumed directly into Heaven. This date is celebrated on August 15th as the Feast of the Assumption of Mary. Mary was the only "perfect human." Great trivia question. Next issue: will it help sell your boat if you put a statue of St. Joseph upside down in the bilge? :) |
Originally Posted by Edward R. Cozzi
(Post 2305067)
As a surveyor I hate reading stuff like this. Yes, we all have disclaimers in our paperwork because some buyers think that a survey is a guarantee that nothing will EVER go wrong with the boat.
I have a few questions. 1. Who recommended the surveyor? 2. Is the surveyor NAMS or SAMS affiliated? 3. Is this surveyor a high performance boat surveyor? 4. Is there a possibility the bottom damage was caused by launching or retrieving from the trailer? In Wisconsin a surveyor was paid for a full hull survey, a sea trial and compression tests. Twenty-nine pages later of BS and the guy missed both gimbal rings totally worn-out, an exhaust manifold gasket leak, the fact that one of the Bravo outdrives was older than the boat, neither one had the first gear change upgrade and the bearings in the blower snouts were growling so loud it was a joke. There was nothing in the survey about the bad trim indicator cables either. Your friend needed a better surveyor. What do think is better to use, a mosture meter or a hammer and a drill? I cant remember but, which is the the creditable surveyor association NAMS or SAMS? My friend Group explained the difference a while ago to me. I cant remember thought. I do have to agree with you 100% while a surveyor might be great and no the ins and outs of a sea ray it doesnt mean he is the best qualified for a Hi-perf application. 2 cents Jr |
Comments ?'s
Dear Atheist, I'm not Atheist , but I still don't know what he said has to do with this boat situation, or Mary , Joseph , Jesus, Reggie Fountain or the Statue of Liberty.
All jokes aside what is the moisture assesment on your friends boat. I do feel for you both, I have friends and a father who are limited in their mobility and I would hate to see this happen to them. In the spirit of boating there should be a way of making better deals on boats so that everyone isn't so gun shy. I would be scared to death to buy one of these perf. boats. |
Originally Posted by J-Bonz
(Post 2318854)
Ed,
What do think is better to use, a mosture meter or a hammer and a drill? I cant remember but, which is the the creditable surveyor association NAMS or SAMS? My friend Group explained the difference a while ago to me. I cant remember thought. I do have to agree with you 100% while a surveyor might be great and no the ins and outs of a sea ray it doesnt mean he is the best qualified for a Hi-perf application. 2 cents Jr NAMS or SAMS are both good organizations for a surveyor to be aligned with. This doesn't guarantee that the surveyor knows about high performance, however. Surveyors are not perfect and even the best miss items occasionally, but massive, blatant deficiencies are ridiculous. I swear the SAMS surveyor that surveyed my friend's Bullet in Wisconsin had never seen a Bravo outdrive before. |
Originally Posted by wet_rat
(Post 2314172)
You're wrong in your assumption. This is a boat fiberglass shop that gave the estimate. All the boats he had sitting around looked pretty damn good, no waves that I could see.
You referred to the person doing the repair as a "body guy" Boats don't have bodies, automobiles do. |
Originally Posted by johnfharding
(Post 2318895)
Dear Atheist, I'm not Atheist , but I still don't know what he said has to do with this boat situation, or Mary , Joseph , Jesus, Reggie Fountain or the Statue of Liberty.
All jokes aside what is the moisture assesment on your friends boat. I do feel for you both, I have friends and a father who are limited in their mobility and I would hate to see this happen to them. In the spirit of boating there should be a way of making better deals on boats so that everyone isn't so gun shy. I would be scared to death to buy one of these perf. boats. |
Wet Rat,
Always someone being picky, so did the shop say anything about the moisture damage?
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Originally Posted by johnfharding
(Post 2318968)
Always someone being picky, so did the shop say anything about the moisture damage?
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Originally Posted by Chris Sunkin
(Post 2319192)
Not really too much time, just trying to help. I wish I'd have known what a tool you really are before I wasted that time.
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I think we all agree the Survey was less than perfect but has he offered to step up and help with the cost ?
This High Performance boating world seems too small for this to get washed under a rug . |
Originally Posted by 1bagger
(Post 2319613)
I think we all agree the Survey was less than perfect but has he offered to step up and help with the cost ?
This High Performance boating world seems too small for this to get washed under a rug . |
Originally Posted by Chris Sunkin
(Post 2319604)
The "too much time- nitpick" comment sand the ass-showing "whatever" icon didn't come off as humor. If that's how you intended it and I mistook it, my apologies.
I didn't think I was nitpicking- when you said "body" I thought I'd point out that your repair may go way deeper than cosmetic. |
Originally Posted by wet_rat
(Post 2319694)
My bad Chris--no harm meant. Buy you a beer or 12!!!
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Originally Posted by Chris Sunkin
(Post 2319727)
And my apologies for the over-reaction. Post deleted
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Is this still your friends boat, or is it yours??
Don't bash me, you're all thinking it too...:hitfan: |
Originally Posted by bouyhunter
(Post 2319971)
Is this still your friends boat, or is it yours??
Don't bash me, you're all thinking it too...:hitfan: |
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