What would you do? Bunk survey?
 

I have a good friend that just took delivery of his 33 scarab. Had the boat surveyed and got the go ahead from the surveyor that the boat was absolutely solid and in "very good shape". Splash down was yesterday and the boat performed just as he thought it would, awesome!!! Got home and was cleaning up when he went in the cabin only to discover the horror that the floor in the cabin is soft as a sponge, all the way from the entry way to the v birth the center 16" are soft. WTF??? Seller denies knowledge, buyer and myself truly believe the seller had no knowledge. The surveyor has not been paid yet and has not responded to the buyer. This is a surveyor who is VERY experienced(20+ years). What would you recommend for my friend?

did your friend look at the boat at all before he bought it?

The last person that was perfect got nailed to a cross .
Sounds like he just missed it . Now see what he does to fix his error ?

The bad part is that the floor's soft....the worst part is how did it get wet? - From above? From Below? What else might be 'soft'?

And let me guess, the survey has a nice little disclaimer at the end, something to the effect of "we take absolutely no responsibility for this opinion." :rolleyes:

I don't know how much recourse you really have. Best bet might to be to politely deal with the seller to get some kind of resolution.

I find it hard to believe that the surveyer couldn't feel 16' of soft cabin floor.:rolleyes: Then again, he might have not gone down into the cabin

That much water shouldnt be that hard to find the source... either from the bottom (eek) or top from being left in the rain

What state was the boat sold? In what state are the seller and surveyor located?

I had a survey done, paid extra for motor detail. Turns out no compression check, no oil analysis, Charles Bullock in Gainesville, Georgia. Refused to correspond to me. Could have gotten an attorney, etc.......not worth it in my case. I will never trust a surveyor again. No offense to legit, stand up surveyors out there. If I'm a surveyor cabin wood is the first thing I'm Checking!

The surveyor failed, if you found this than he should have too. Start tearing up the carpet and see what the floor is made of, if it was not sealed you may be ok, if it was than the rest of the boat is a sponge too. No worthy Surveyor would not do a moisture test and this would have come out in the end. This brings me back to my first go fast, a 33 Donzi that cost me a year on land and 10k to fix, the dealer screwed me on that one. Ed Geerlings in Grand Haven. He and his dad were so crooked I can't believe they could walk.:violent-smiley-045:

he was paid to check the whole boat. this is a major miss that he should be held partly responsible for

is keelhauling still illegal ?

Unfortunately, there seems to be one of these "the surveyor missed this", or missed that story , way too often. Un fortunately, this gives good, legit surveyors a bad eye.

You need to determine if it's just the floor, or goes beyond. More than likely, the surveyor has a disclaimer clause. But, I would discuss this with an attorney. A miss of this size, may be considered gross negligence.May be able to talk to buyer, but with a problem of this magnitude, it's hard to believe that the buyer was clueless.

Yes he did look at it. He looked over the boat and assessed things the way he knew to. His boating experience is minimal so he expected ALOT out of the surveyor, as all people do, that's why they do what they do.

The buyer called him this afternoon. The first comment the surveyor says is "I got your email and messages." Why didn't he call him back then??? Then he tells him "I won't expect you to pay for the survey if you're not happy." Also said when he walked in the cabin he "felt the floor flex but didn't think it was anything out of the ordinary, if he thought it was he would have shot it with the gun (thermographer) to see the extent of moisture if any." Also said "if I missed it I missed it."

How did it get wet? Is exactly my concern. The buyer had a hatch put in the boat but I nor my friend see any potential water leak in the ceiling or the carpet of the cabin. The boat was stored under a shelter during it's life with the present owner.

Deal with the seller--he is very distraught over the realization. I think he is willing to do whatever my friend wants to make the deal right. He seems like such a nice guy that my friend doesn't want to screw him either.

Virginia

I totally agree, check out my other post to see his comments

Update--went to my friends house today to help him possibly locate the cause of his issue. Due to back problems and his size there is no way he could crawl under the trailer to inspect the hull. So---under I go inspecting the hull from front to rear. There is a nickel size chip on port side, not even into the core, he saw that on his first visit. As I proceed towards the back here is what I find.....
http://cid-b5e91a91d17714f9.spaces.l...1D17714F9!184/

Pics are hard to depict but what you see is port side right next to the trailer bunk. It extends from 44" forward the transom and extends to 71", it is 27" long, 27"!!!!!! The first 6" or so are dripping water as the pics show. How the fu*k does an inspector miss this??? I don't believe that this is the cause of the cabin floor issues but this is a whole other issue that HAS to be addressed by the inspector. Speak up guys, what do you think???

I am a licensed NJ attorney (sorry I am not going to VA). But, send me a PM, I may be able to guide you in the right direction.

For up to a $5K judgement consider this http://www.courts.state.va.us/pamphl...ll_claims.html

WTF? As much as it hurts id make the buyer happy .
I know its used and as is and shown but WOW

Smarty, that is certainly the route he WILL take as he begins to find out the extent of the damage. I really appreciate your input, I will keep you in mind and forward your info should he be inclined to seek your assistance--thanks again!!

Are you speaking from the buyer or the surveyors stand point?

The seller is VERY emotional about the whole situation--BUT we feel that it was totally the surveyors responsibility to locate this damage. He had his thermal imaging gun with him that his website shows actual 1" blisters in the gelcoat underneath bottom paint. It should certainly detect this damage.

tell your friend to go after the SURVEYOR,they will try the there not liable but they have ins and its there FUCH UP,Hired a surveyor and paid 1600.00 for survey they used an old survey left someone elses names on pics,changed names on paperwork,and missed gas soaked glass & balsa from leaky fuel tanks,and a bad patch & some wett wood .they tried to say only had 14 days to find any problems,and now there working a settlement
good luck:p

Me being the seller .RING RING hello ...My boat you sold me is f....up.(what) its got bad water damage...whats that guy you paid say...(f him)well i didnt know...how can we make this right. Me not having any idea of the damage
Ring Ring ..yello ..my boat is jacked up that you sold me.Really id call that guy you paid good luck!!
me knowing of damage (this is what auctions are for)
"this is my idea of me selling and does not imply or express real life issues in this topic"
Off topic i was at an auction (rb) and was buying a few cement mixers when the last one i was the winner of (9k) just started reving out of controll and tossed the rods on the block. All i rember is SOLD AND BOOM

A few items come to mind. Not trying to be a dick here but, that damage as shown in your pictures are a fairly large item to miss when looking at a boat. I can't believe that the seller, your friend, or a surveyor would miss what you have shown in the pictures. Is there a possibility the damage happened after the purchase of the boat? As far as the soft floor goes..your friend payed for a proffessional survey and didn't receive one. The surveyor admitted on the phone that he felt the floor flex but didn't investigate it? Did he mention it in the survey?

My friend has a bad back and is too big to get under the boat to see this. The damage is pretty close to the bunk and I had to be right up on it to see it, partly because of the trailer beams and partly because of location. I can't speak for the seller, can only go on the fact I fell he is telling the truth. The surveyor totally should have caught this.
Happen after purchase? I really don't think so, the damage looks as if it has been there for awhile. The boat has been out one time since taking delivery, I was present then and there was never a time when I felt like that could have happen. You stated correctly--he "didn't investigate it" and NO not a single mention of the floor flexing or the major hull damage

Werd brother--that's my thought too!!:ernaehrung004:

As a surveyor I hate reading stuff like this. Yes, we all have disclaimers in our paperwork because some buyers think that a survey is a guarantee that nothing will EVER go wrong with the boat.
I have a few questions.

1. Who recommended the surveyor?

2. Is the surveyor NAMS or SAMS affiliated?

3. Is this surveyor a high performance boat surveyor?

4. Is there a possibility the bottom damage was caused by launching or retrieving from the trailer?

In Wisconsin a surveyor was paid for a full hull survey, a sea trial and compression tests. Twenty-nine pages later of BS and the guy missed both gimbal rings totally worn-out, an exhaust manifold gasket leak, the fact that one of the Bravo outdrives was older than the boat, neither one had the first gear change upgrade and the bearings in the blower snouts were growling so loud it was a joke. There was nothing in the survey about the bad trim indicator cables either.

Your friend needed a better surveyor.

1. Surveyor was found on marinesurveyors.com

2. He is a survey associate with SAMS

3. He does survey high performance boats, according to him. The seller said this surveyor surveyed a 38 Top Gun for a friend of his 3 years ago. He has been surveying over 20 years.

4. I don't believe it is possible. The boat actually got walked on the trailer when coming out of the water, the water was pretty rough. Launching occured flawlessly, I don't believe it's possible.

Thanks for chiming in, I was hoping a surveyor would provide some input. In no way is my friend trying to screw anyone, just wants to get what he was told he was buying.

Where is that damage in relation to the stern? If it extends to 6' forward of the transom, why is the step not visible in the pics? If that is the rear lifting strake it should be turned down. The 33s have a negative strake at the rear most planing surface. Just trying to understand where the damage actually is.

On the 33s some of them leak around the cabin hatch into the headliner and run down to the cabin sole in a different location, not necessarily right around the hatch itself. You could also check the bow cleat and nav light to see if either of them are leaking into the forward locker in front of the berth and the water seeping to the cabin floor from there.

good luck!

This just reaks of stupidity...for not crawling over every inch of the boat BEFORE purchase. Unbelievable!

A big lesson to be learned by this chit ,the last 3 boats i have bought (and over 400k+) never started them,did a sea trial,or crawled under them. looked at pics & video (1 even from a dealer) and problems with all .Even with a marine surveyor and a clean bill of health 1 needed 57,000.00 in repair .Seems this glass & wet wood is a major problem in the boating world. Never again after this last one we will always have a survey and still pay knowledgeble people to check em out & cant always rely on the sellers word.
Talk about feelin like a DUMMY

Just re-read your original thread starter.
Soft cabin or cockpit soles were covered in "Surveying 101".

Twenty years experience? Of doing what...ASSUMING? If the cracks in the bottom are dripping water, a Skipper Tramex non-invasive moisture meter would have woken up the neighborhood telling everybody there's a trapped moisture problem and probable wood rot. As a surveyor you cannot be in a hurry to finish one boat to get to another. No matter how good the boat LOOKS, a surveyor cannot be lulled into a false sense that the boat doesn't have hidden problems that take a little more trouble to locate.

I'm going to write a book that's going to become the surveyor's bible like Chapman's is to Seamanship!

These damn motoryacht and sportfisherman surveyors have no business even looking at a high performance boat! There are a few local survey houses that think I'm a real ***** because I told them this. Several others use me when they get one and they are not embarrassed by a surveyor that doesn't understand these boats at all.

And this is why I chose Ed Cozzi to do my survey and I will have him do any other boat I buy as well.....The man knows his sh!t. :ernaehrung004:

Read the threads jerk off--the buyer is unable to do so, why would you voice such an ignorant opinion? The point of a survey is to determine any problems that you as the buyer wouldn't know or can't pick up.

Ed, the ONLY piece of equipment he used was his Flir ThermaCAM E, unless the moisture meter is built in he never even used one, according to my friend. Friend says the surveyor never even crawled under the boat.

Unbelievable. The bottom of a high performance boat takes punishment that can't be believed.

(I need to stop talking about it and actually write my book.).

I'm so sorry this happened to you. Nobody wins in a situation like this. You're going to potentially spend thousands of dollars to rebuild that cabin sole and possibly the stringer and lateral bulkhead system, unless you are in that business and can do it yourself. The soft floor is usually just the tip of the iceberg in situations like this.

Contact SAMS, being sure to include the pictures. Go after his cert.
That's bullsht.

last one I had done the moisture meter was run all over the hull including inside the bilge and around all cleats and deck fittings guy spent over a hour just on moisture checking.

Why with extent of the damage are you so sure seller did not know?

You need to hit back real hard as fast as you can ask seller if this was such a honest mistake to pay for repairs ot take it back

Too late for your friend, but...

Always ask for an insurance certificate from your surveyor's Errors and Omissions underwriter. If he can't provide one, look elsewhere.

Everyone we do work for requires an insurance cert. Everyone we contract for ANYTHING gives us one. There's no reason to deal with anyone who is uninsured.

I'd go easy with the surveyor at first- if he's uninsured, he's probably judgment-proof (i.e. he has nothing). Most likely though he's not going to do anything but pass on his fee. I'd ask him about his E&O coverange and see what he says. If the seller will help you that's great. You'll probably spend more in legal fees than what the repair will cost if you did decide to sue him. You'll be paying for the repairs out-of-pocket anyway as it may be some time before you even see a judgment, let alone collect on it.

Whatever you're going to do, you should probably get a re-survey by a good surveyor. You'll need this to know what to fix and to establish the existing damage if you choose to litigate.