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Why Apache are so expensive?

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Old 10-31-2007, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Sunkin View Post
CF was unheard of back then- they hadn't even started using it in aircraft componentry yet. Expensive would be an understatement, not that it's close to cheap today. Virtually everything made with carbon was small parts and autoclave-cured.
The history of CF goes back to 1880īs...
First uses of CF "commercially" was in the early (1961->) 60īs on racing sailboats rudders, at the time they didnīt fare well because the lamination processes wasnīt up to par and they disingrated because of the forces twisting them apart.
In the late 70īs early 80īs Kevlar was the common norm on racing sailboats especially competition dinghies and I remember also those boats that had no gelcoat you could see thru.
Now that was for a purpose as the competitor could always check how the boat was trimmed by looking thru the bottom (some smaller class offshore racecat builders like Argo used that trick too on their prototypes in the mid 80īs).
There was Green seethru boats (ugly as hell) and then a Purple version which was not preferred much as it was felt to be too stiff and prone to crack.
But What a statement those boats made at the docks/starting line...It felt like a white man talking to Richard Pryor (R.I.P.) about manhood having a gelcoated boat...
Think someone go that far out that they leave the gelcoat out just for competitivness !

In the early eighties, a lot sooner than any motorsport including Formel1, CF was also used in sailing more than often, And it has a lot to do with the budgets of Americas Cup contenders and Around the world racers..as they used smaller boats for testing everything man can imagine !
In fact parts (Masts/Booms/Sails/Winches/Rudders/Keels/Hulls..you name it) made of Carbon Fiber today in racing sailboats are so common you grow tired looking at them (and have been banned on some classic classes), come to think of it the decklid on my Acer/Ferrari laptop is a CF lid...

Neither do I believe an Autoclaved (and prepregged) boat hull would be anything at least in the long run...a disposable raceboat (for one season) yes why not but nothing further as boats need some inbuilt flex,without cracking, IMO (just like oiltankers) and therefore Iīd rather look into something else like Sorona in the future.

So what has this all to do with the prices of Apaches?
If Iīm not mistaken Everyone are built at least Kevlar reinforced but the resin is it Epoxy or just plain old vinyl/polyester?
If they are 100% Kevlar/Epoxies even the nonracers then they are in fact not even expensive...try build one today with Epoxy/Kevlar/CF.
With a base calculation what it will cost most of us will land flat on our rears while passing out...
And then just look at the hardware bolted to them (or unbolted), they have a price tag too and usually not found in any other boats that are cheaper.

Last edited by MikeyFIN; 10-31-2007 at 07:26 AM.
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Old 10-31-2007, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by turbo2256b View Post
Kevlar failiers often occure if it gets scratched some how
So does every fiber mat if the hazard is so deep it goes to the mat and breaks the structure....
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Old 10-31-2007, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark View Post
Carbon Fiber is a great product. Awesome for F1 cars, but does not make sense on hi-perf boats because it is so rigid. Best used on high stress points only I am told. Although I still wonder because it will shatter when under too much stress. I am not an expert, just give me a kevlar Apache resin bucket and I will go play in the rough!
How do you explain sailboat masts made of CF then ?
They Bend a lot plus take some hits too while crashing waves...ever felt a boat mast shake a 20000 lbs boat so you donīt see clear...
Itīs just how you build em--if they break they are not built right for the purpose or made to have a limited lifetime.
Epoxy is the key...if you ainīt gonna use Epoxy as a resin but a vinyl/polyester you might forget it and save your money.
Even a normal FG mat boat will be a lot better using Epoxy as a resin, ok so itīs a Lot more hazardous than any other resin but still preferred IMO.
Not Many boatbuilders have the facilities/equipment to be safe handling/repairing Epoxy resin.
Iīd say they are almost extint even globally.

some info

Now here might be one of the reasons why None of the old Apache crew isnīt so keen on building new ones...now Mark, from Fort Myers..fill us in

Last edited by MikeyFIN; 10-31-2007 at 08:19 AM.
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Old 10-31-2007, 09:07 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by MikeyFIN View Post
Now here might be one of the reasons why None of the old Apache crew isnīt so keen on building new ones...now Mark, from Fort Myers..fill us in
Maybe there's a better market for making FRP bath tubs, showers, sinks, shower inserts or other fiberglass parts....than there is in making boats?

OuterLimits is currently making Epoxy post cured carbon fiber laminents..
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Old 10-31-2007, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by MikeyFIN View Post
How do you explain sailboat masts made of CF then ?
They Bend a lot plus take some hits too while crashing waves...ever felt a boat mast shake a 20000 lbs boat so you donīt see clear...
Itīs just how you build em--if they break they are not built right for the purpose or made to have a limited lifetime.
Epoxy is the key...if you ainīt gonna use Epoxy as a resin but a vinyl/polyester you might forget it and save your money.
Even a normal FG mat boat will be a lot better using Epoxy as a resin, ok so itīs a Lot more hazardous than any other resin but still preferred IMO.
Not Many boatbuilders have the facilities/equipment to be safe handling/repairing Epoxy resin.
Iīd say they are almost extint even globally.

some info

Now here might be one of the reasons why None of the old Apache crew isnīt so keen on building new ones...now Mark, from Fort Myers..fill us in
As I said, I'm not an expert. Nor-tec told me they only use it in high-stress structural connections because the boats turn out to bee too rigid with no real flex (if built to last) and end up beating the hell out of you. I'd like to think Nor-tec knows what they are talking about. It seems to be more about rigidity than possibility. You can lap it up, but do you want to get beat up? I hope to own an Apache some day. I want the Kevlar resin bucket. No sense owning one without pounding the waves.

BTW - I have seen numerous sail boat masts snap like twigs during the cup races - and I hardly watch any coverage of it. Sailboats don't pound waves at 80+ mph. The weight advantage makes good sence on a sailboat.
F1 rear wings have been set up to flex. And a number of guys hit the fence as a result. It was actually a brilliant idea, but very dangerous. Todays CF strong suit is light weight rigidity IMO.
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Old 10-31-2007, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Stormrider View Post
MMs boat is very light. Obvious at the dock. can be manhandled (or woman handled by lucy) very easily.
and do not forget..........it has passed the test of time........and me.......
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Old 10-31-2007, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Panther View Post
Maybe there's a better market for making FRP bath tubs, showers, sinks, shower inserts or other fiberglass parts....than there is in making boats?

OuterLimits is currently making Epoxy post cured carbon fiber laminents..

You got that right...thereīs a better market of doing normal commodities than boats.
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Old 10-31-2007, 01:22 PM
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Hello from tahiti have not seen any Apaches here but lots of beautiful nature!!
I was wondering where you were.........have fun.....luva m.m.
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Old 10-31-2007, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark View Post
As I said, I'm not an expert. Nor-tec told me they only use it in high-stress structural connections because the boats turn out to bee too rigid with no real flex (if built to last) and end up beating the hell out of you. I'd like to think Nor-tec knows what they are talking about. It seems to be more about rigidity than possibility. You can lap it up, but do you want to get beat up? I hope to own an Apache some day. I want the Kevlar resin bucket. No sense owning one without pounding the waves.
Well what did I say...I said the Epoxy is the key here not CF. Nor- tech uses still vinyl/polyester resin and every other for the matter or correct me If Iīm wrong ??
Was Apache the only one using 100% Epoxy (at least in their raceboats and workboats) if yes then no need to carry the conversation further, correct me here too If Iīm mistaken by all the hoopla of Apache and how and with what they are built with ?

You can make any composite stupendously stiff (and brittle) or right. IMO, people can make oiltankers/cruisers/airplane fuesealages/wings etc flex/resilience the proper amount and thereīs programs for helping out too.
IMO the only object is the cost and the fact people believe in their assumptions and doesnīt want to evolve but stick to the tried and true methods..just like Blowers vs. Turboīs in boats or SSMīs vs Surface Drives.

Regarding a Kevlar "resin buckets", well back then it was thought to be ok and even now economically thinking.
But Epoxy is way more tolerant to flex (stiffnes strength) than any other resin and you can using the right (Fiberglass)mat and Epoxy get to 2% within the weight of any CF composite boat but have tripled the stiffness strenght which is a measure of not how stiff something is but how it holds up to deformation (flex) before breaking.
Actually using 100% Kevlar and then slapping it up with "normal" resin is kinda like trying to glue glass together when not done right same goes for 100% CF.
Other mats have to be used as a protective layer if Kevlar or CF is used against scratching etc if the XXX is made to last.
Kevlar also detoriates fast getting exposed to UV-rays.

I have a hard time thinking a similar sized boat with lesser weight canīt be a wavebuster/perform better.
In every form of racing people tend to make things as light as possible despite the conditions. Itīs IMO up to the operetor to know ones limits.

Quote:
BTW - I have seen numerous sail boat masts snap like twigs during the cup races - and I hardly watch any coverage of it. Sailboats don't pound waves at 80+ mph. The weight advantage makes good sence on a sailboat.
F1 rear wings have been set up to flex. And a number of guys hit the fence as a result. It was actually a brilliant idea, but very dangerous. Todays CF strong suit is light weight rigidity IMO.
The forces to break are the same if itīs a mast high up or a hull hitting a wave at whatever if something breaks or ?
A failure with CF composites usually has to do with improper handling/build/structural error therefore backyard builders (thatīs what boatbuilders are compared to other industries) shy away from CF.
The weight advantage is good and bad, too much weight downlow or high and it becomes a pendelum on a sailboat.
Try rock a sailboat without a mast and with one...
Itīs all about balance like in a powerboat too and I believe a properly balanced lighter boat with same size will outperform the heavier one in almost any condition a human can take.

Regarding F1 wings yes they are made to flex as much as the rules permit...also you see them break (for whatever reason) at 200mph when the limits are reached and yes itīs dangerous. Thats motorsport and thats what the guys get paid for, taking (calculated) risks with their lives.
So is crossing a road by foot.
CFīs strong suit have always been tensile strength/lbs which is only one of the factors of stiffnes strength.

Would I use CF for a boat...well not without Epoxy, howabout Kevlar or any other mat or a mixmat of these two mentioned..
No, if money wasnīt an object.
And we havenīt talked about honeycombs as bulkheads/stiffeners yet either..and wonīt in this thread as No Apache ainīt built with them.

And donīt take this as bashing Iīm interested in how the A41īs and 47 especially racers are built and do love both of them for what they are.
But I also love other raceboats and it interests me how they are built.

Last edited by MikeyFIN; 10-31-2007 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 10-31-2007, 06:07 PM
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Man, this thread has made for some good reading! Plus I got to laugh a bunch!

Can't wait to see ya next year Lucy! By any chance, will you & Mark be in Key West?
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