I'll agree.

It also has less hull in the water a.k.a running surface; which provides for reduced drag.
A 26' boat and a 28' boat with like bottom designs that weigh EXACTLY the same; down to the ounce, with IDENTICAL power... Which one will be faster?
The one with the least drag.

Ditto. Good comments, but a few.
A long winded explanation, (no offence intended) for the "suction" comment I made earlier. However. Steps been around for decades, back in the early PT boats. Actually the "hydro foils" originated the idea. Lifting heavy boats out of the water. No question, steps work for the intended design, but one of the reason for diffeernt steps and numbers is Pattents, and the location and size of the steps. The AT steps came from the Challanger Offshore boats by Harry L. Schoell. Singe "huge" step, designed for the Merc. Black Hawks. It was Pattented and Harry designed the AT steps, thus almost the same. Now, to get on the bandwagon, boat designers wanted to add steps to keep up with the marketing need. A builder can't just put a step in an copy some existing steps so new designs and ideas surface. If steps are the greatest thing since sliced bread and the more the better,? (based on some posts and theories) boat bottems would look like a saw blade.
In all reality, you put enough horses behind a log, steps or no steps, that log will outrun any cats, steps of "v" s. (no handling remarks please.. :) it's an example.) With all the motor options and competative pricing, hull designs is evolving left and right. And I think that's great. While I don't make a judgement what is better, all this gives us boat nuts a wider selection for a boat purchase. However, in my oppinion, all this comes down to personnal preference, compromise and $ to spend. I seen boats, (not HP) with so called "steps".
Looks good. a notch in the hull. (no elevation difference) but it can be "marketed" as a step hull, and the avarage boat buyer may have no clue that it doesn't do anything. (avarage may be a wrong choice of words). Steps cost more, period. New mold, etc. May get away using less horses. Consumers have a great diversity to get a migrane buying a boat. (just like I been taking bottles of Tylenal lately) :evilb: but I just love it...

did somebody say sawblade?

Sorry, I see where you have Active Thunder Factory Rep. on your screen and assumed you were wooking for them in some way. I don't think I was insinuating I just want to know who else uses a single step.

I agree. I wanted good, useful information -- not a pissing match. I can happily say that the thread has been very informing.

I help people get into boats, but I'm not on a payroll.

Cigarette, Outerlimits, Fountain, and others, used single steps in the past, but moved on to other things. They never spent a serious amount of time dialing them in.
AT has chosen to stick with the DDC hull designed by Harry Schoell, and tune it to exactly what the boat AND owner likes/wants/needs.

Reggie Fountain never spent time working on the shape of his running surface??????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

Not really on single step 38+ footers. How long did he keep them; a year? Two?
That is, before moving on to multiple steps... where he has spent a plethora of time dialing in.

First-off...Time is not quantified in "plethoras"; and Fountain made a 42 single step, not a 38.

Well, I am guessing that Fountain knows something that the single step guys haven't learned yet.

Before this thread makes a wrong turn, I just want to say thus far it has had some very good points brought out and I have enjoyed reading it. Welcome gramp but I have to ask what Velocity you are talking about that has a narrow beam? I have a 280 and the beam on it is 8'2", and the 39 that is so fast with the 700s in it has an 8'3" beam. A 38TS Top Gun has an 8' beam and a 38' fountain has an 8'6" beam, so I would say they are average if anything. Also I'm not sure what Paradox means by the stakes being designed to push the water away from the boat, my 280 has stakes like you drew for example A.

Thank you very much for the insight gentlemen. :D

Both "V "hulls have a beam of 8'.. right, has a narrower surface.
Bottom right, allows more air, better lift, but harder when lands on wakes. geting the curve flatter in the rear and "out"... will tend to push the water out instead of straight back. The location of the curve will provide bow. mid or stern lift. I have an old INfinity, one of the last made with variable "rib" / strake design. one of the fastest 26' (with 454)and rides like a Apache in rough. (lol.. I can see all the Apache owners geting after me for this one )
Attachment 315797

Read My Next Post..........i Got Another Question!!! :)

Next One--

OKAY................. Here's another question...

Why does the 32' Advantage not need tabs, even running in rough water? I have never been in one, but every offshore boat I have ever been in needed tabs in rough water.


The 38 TS TG didn't need much tab at all. I think it's one of the best rides out there that I have ever been in. Boat flys very level.

No prob. :) But sorry Mark,, can't drink.. :mad:
Doctors order. Something with the pencrious chitt. It's shut down,, no cure.. no drinks..

true. using skater as an example the 28 is heavier longer and wider, yet with the same o/b power is faster than the 24.
i find this impressive.

as well as this

There is more to it than that. The Fountain Factory is 2 hours away and so is Joey Griffin - my engine builder and most know the relation of Joey Griffin & Fountain. That said, I have spent some time down there to ask questions. Fountain uses twin step design because they want their boats to be the fastest / safest boat they can build.



But the following is what I learned at Tres' school:

The single step hull design makes for a skittish ride, plus the pivot point when turning is farther forward. Multiple steps generally ride better and are more predictable in turns and the pivot point is rearward (where the weight is) and thus turns more confidently.
I assume that if you want a better riding more predictable turning boat especially at high speeds, then most builders are going to use and "dial in" what works better.

If you doubt me, I'll be glad to refer you to Tres Martin.

Alot of this has to do with the builder and balance.
When a boat hull is designed, it is done with certain things in mind, usually something like this:Twin 525's & Bravos, a cabin, and a cockpit.

In a readers digest version: The boat is tested and minor changes are made so the boat is balanced. Everything that went into that boat - the weight of components & location was thought out so the boat would be balanced. Ok, so you you have a properly designed/balance boat right from the designer.
Now the builder wants to sell boats to more people so they add, A/C, Toilet, hot & cold water, 5000 watt audio system, shower and more creature comforts. What does that do to the original balanced design of that boat - likely nose heavy? Maybe they installed all creature comforts on the port side - refrigerator, AC, Stereo, hot water. . . . . .what about balance??
or,
Builder installs mega HP motors, #6 drives and adds 3 more batteries. What does that do to the original balanced design of that boat - likely stern heavy?
Ever heard a builder say: "If you want A/C then I need to add 2 more batteries so the boat stays in balance"?

I am not sure who designs all the big names in boats, but AT is a Harry Schoell design and the Cig Top Gun is Michael Peters.
Now, if Cig or AT gets an order for a boat, and the guy wants big power and #6 drives, do you think either of these manufacturers call the designer and see what needs to be done to offset the added weight so the boat is as the designer intended?

Yes I do think (I know) A.T. has changed things around. There is different stepp inserts for the molds for different drive and power combos.

I conversed with Tres about his thoughts on the Single Step and the AT, Cigarette, Fountain and a few other things. I think ANY ride/hull is open to interpretation, driving style, and comfort level, and then an opinion is therefore formed.

While the pivot point of a single step (in this case example, the AT), is further forward than a twin step anything, you can take this to the bank: The single step will ALWAYS pivot on that one step, guaranteed; at 30, 50, 90, 110, -whatever mph. OCCASIONALLY, a multiple step boat, with confusion between the driver input, seas, load, fuel, weight transfer, speed, trim settings, etc, will pick a different pivot point (step) than the driver expects. This will not happen with a single step bottom design. Can you swap ends on a single step bottom? You bet. Can you do it on a multiple step bottom? Yes. Can you do it on a straight bottom? Yep, can be done. (With the proper training and experience, i.e. gained from Tres' class, you can make any boat do just about any turn, but you have to know how to turn, how to equal the pressure on both sides of the hull, etc. etc.)

(Great media: The Donzi videos that were shot for Miami Vice promos REALLY show how a multiple step boat turns. You can clearly see the transom taking a different track than each of the steps, and you see the water stream/cut off of each step. Those videos were done in FLAT water. If you are in ROUGH water, each of those steps is not going to be in contact with the water at all times. In that case, a step that is in the air, not water, will NOT be acting as pivot point.)

Also, just for example, an AT is going to have a pivot point further forward, based on weight distribution/COG as compared to ANY TS/TG, as the AT has a full finished cabin, comparatively having considerable more nose weight than a 1/2 cabin derivative boat.
Again, this is not a better than/worse than situation; just something to account for.

You were in the boat when Tres (purposely) whipped the 180* turn in Rich's AT. What did you think? Was it skittish? Would you have liked that same turn in your boat? Just curious.

Mark, you are right on the money. Harry Schoell is 5 doors down from AT, and is integral to the entire process. He has direct input on the hull/step/bottom & a LOT of things; on a regular and consistent basis.



____________________________


Great thread Gerrard!

Well it sucks if your an AT owner that say has 496's and are sick of going 75 mph and want to put in some big power and 6 drives, not only do you have to rework the transom the whole bottom has to be re worked if it can be.

Great thread, Monstaaa has shared an example with the 24 and 28 skater. It is a good example highlighting that speed is effected as much or more by hull design than length and even weight.

There is so much more to a great boat ride than how fast or smooth it rides. There must be a thousand different things that play a part. Personal preference varies as much as the boats themselves.

So aside for speed it is all subjective, handling, how smooth the ride is, how good in the rough. Even quality becomes subjective at times.

The 38 PP rides even slightly smoother.

Lapseofreason, It is probably more cost effective to buy the boat you want and not try to make the boat in to something different.

Is the speedo the only fun meter?

This has been a great thread...

This applies to all boats, and the chances of someone going to larger power, upgrading to 6's, adding a tranny, more batteries and so on..it obviously would be WAY more cost effective to sell the boat, and start fresh.

My experience with 2000 single step Top Gun that I owned vs the Single step 2003 37 A.T. is not even close, as to ride quality, steering at certain speeds (twin step TG is excellent-just so you Cig guys didnt get your panties all in a bunch:grinser010:)...Too much hear say on this thread, unless you've owned one or driven one. Where's the 38PP when you need them.:cool:

I know that but a lot of people repower and go bigger, And no the speedo is not the only fun meter, that is why I am selling my 100mph boat for a 65-75 mph Center Console. I am done with big power and am going to outboards.

It's funny how you say that, 4 years ago when I wanted to sell my 42 Sonic to get something faster almost everybody on here was telling me to add superchargers or big power to my 42.drop 100k for 10 mph on a flat bottom boat:cool: where were you then.:drink:

I would be interested to know what other builders change the bottom for what power is ordered, from what Terry Sobo told me my 98 50 Nortech has the same bottom a 2008 has, just the cockpit liner has changed. I would think that if alot of builders do it when you are buying a used boat you better make sure it has close to the same stuff it was ordered with.

I think Tres' experience makes this statement very strong.

Okay so now that all the experts are keyed in to this thread, when seting up my outboards on my Midnight which has a 24 degree V with a pad, what height should drives be in relation to bottom. ( I will be going with quads)

On my last Midnight I was running the bullets of the nose cones (Bob's low water pick ups) even with the bottom of the boat. (No pad on old Midnight) Even higher than shown in pict when I added brackets to outers.

Now that my new Midnight has a pad, can I run the drives even higher?? And other than the obvious water pressure what negative effects will it have?

Thanks

Good stuff all around. :)
One way to resolve many questions is to test. Here is the dilemma. Mags, testing or builder test are not apples to apples. This is planned due to marketing.
I toss this in "the mix”. Let’s have a true test on one of the popular PR. Same weight, same HP. Sim. Lengths, same water conditions, same gal.’s of fuel. . Now.. we can compare boats.
I’ll bet no one will willing to do it. Can’t use the typ. excurses. Fuel, passengers, HP, etc.
Just a thought.. and that’s why boating is personal preference and $’s at the end of the day.

:D

i have done many repeat scenarios as far as set up.

typicly the c.g is responsible for step placement on a steped bottom(whether 1,2 or more steps) and optimal handling , speed and safety on any hull. then every thing else is applied, x-dimension, batteries , trim pumps, etc,,,, .
this is conducive for a thorough rig.
if it is done correctly then water conditions, fuel load, occupancy, power, etc,,, do not tremendously effect original characteristics of said boat.
proof of this is in the picture above.

I don't call Harry, I drive down the street and walk in his office. Especially now with the big project.

The standing line is "I am off to see the wizard"

Did you get your voice back yet? Call me next week.

Now that's convenient! :drink:

:). I liked your "BIG" project. Mum's the word. :evilb:

Yes I was on board. He did NOT whip a hard azz turn. He simply turned the boat around and headed back in the opposite direction.
(If that was a whipped 180* turn, then AT's have problems turning)
Yes, I would have felt fine turning my boat like that - it was just a turn. I have turned my boat much tighter. Did I think the AT boat was skittish? I think "loose" would be my description. My 28' Powerquest felt skittish.

That is impressive!!!!!
Now I am curious, what changes are made? For example, Macklin said his boat was built w/o a cabin liner, thus the boat is 700lbs lighter. In that instance, what did Harry tell you to change to keep the boat balanced?
Do other manufacturers do this?

Pat, voice is back, I'll call ya next week.

That's funny chit:cool-smiley-027:

:ernaehrung004: I've already asked Steve to add "Dict-Chek" to the posting window similar to "Spel-Chek. :drink: