Mechanical Steering Failure
 

I a recent thread I started (Best upgrades 496HO) the question was brought up about upgrading to HYD. steering when building a boat that will run over 70mph for saftey purposes.After I decided to take the plunge and purchase it.I called a long time friend a long time performance boat enthusiest, and to his knowledge he has never actually seen a failure occur from the mechanical steering or steering components caused by performance upgrades . Has any one had happen to them personally or know someone that this has happend to directly ,please no stories of things you might have heard at the bar.(True accounts only)

I havent seen one break at high speed, but my buddy did snap a steering cable in the harbor. Lost all steering, woulda really sucked at 70 mph.

I have had a personal experience. When a power steering pump belt broke, the prop/engine torque threw the boat into a full lock turn at full thottle. Threw myself out of passenger side bolster onto the floor in the back, almost threw the driver out of the boat. Driver was hanging over the side, still holding onto the steering wheel.

We got very lucky that we didn't hit another boat or the shore.

I installed full hyd, to the helm, dual ram after that. Best improvement I've every made to a boat. I'll personally never own another boat without it.

Do it before you make your boat faster. You and me both will feel safer!

I will definately be installing hyd steering along with the upgrades without question .The cost of the upgrade is peanuts in the grand sceme of things and saftey has no price. This thread is more or less just to find out any true failures caused by performance upgraded boats at speed.

I never saw it as a question of the cable system breaking under load at speeds above 70 mph, but rather a question of the amount of control. As boats go over 70mph, the actual amount of boat in the water is quite a bit less. This will cause the boat to respond less to the cable style steering system as there will always be a little slop. The movement of the boat at high speeds intensifies the slop that may be in the mechanical system and you will have less control. A hydraulic steering system has no slop because the fluid is incompressible. This system will give the best control over the boat at high speed without having any slop or play in the system.

Geez, was I long winded enough!:Whatever:

I had one break on my Hydrostream when I first got it. I was running WOT and coming into the channel. There was a HUGE boat in front of me that I was trying to beat into the river. Well I went to turn and the boat kept going strait. I was headed right at the paddle wheels!! I looked back and saw what had happened (break was just outside the boat so I could see it) and turned the wheel the other direction. It was SCARRY!! I got dual cable steering after that.

The issue can´t be about the steering breaking. If you lose the wrong hose on a full hydraulic system, you will have a big problem, and no control over the drive either, although the possibility of the drive flipping over to full lock is minimised.
The improved handling through better control, and elimination of chinewalk inducing transom play, is the big reason for full hydraulic steering.

I've experienced a steering failure at full throttle in a twin-engine performance boat without external steering, and I can tell you it's not a pleasant experience. Mine was due to an intake valve retainer breaking and dropping a valve on the engine that hosted the power steering pump; the engine instanteneously locked up and turned the boat 180 degrees on its rubrail (we were traveling appx 72mph). My hand got caught in one of the spokes of the steering wheel as it spun and two bones were snapped in the back of my hand and the wifey was nearly thrown out of her bolster. The incident only strengthened my love of McCleod bolsters and Formula Powerboats- a lesser V or lower quality seating may have been disastrous. We were otherwise uninjured and returned to the marina on one engine, where we cleaned out our underwear. The other boats we were with swore we had gone over when this occurred- they said all they saw was a 'wall of spray'.

My take on external steering-
1) A full external steering setup, helm to drive(s) with dual-rams is a necessity in a high-performance power boat
2) Hydrodynamic force on a propeller that comes instantaneously to a dead stop from engine or power steering pump failure is enormous, and its VERY possible that the drag on that prop could displace the fluid on any hydraulic ram causing a hard-over condition, even with external hydraulic steering.
3) Unless you have a power steering pumps one each engine (highly unlikely), and your steering system is equipped with a priority-valve system that can automatically transfer pressure to the good engine in case of engine or pump failure, it is possible to have an incident even with a full external hydraulic steering setup.

Mercruiser used to offer a priority valve kit for twin engine installations whereas an owner could have a pump on each engine for just such occcasions. To the best of my knowledge, this kit was discontinued nearly a decade ago. I've since farted around with the idea of designing something similar- I have a pretty extensive hydraulic background from my work on jet aircraft. Such valves are used quite a bit (both priority and sequencing) in aircraft hydraulic systems, especially in landing gear.
If there was any interest, I might pursue it further- it would not be too difficult to produce. As in Mercs design, one engine would be master, one slave, and upon the event of engine or pump failure, the valve would simply shift when it sensed loss of pressure on one side of its piston and transfer pressure to the steering system from the bad engine/pump to the good engine/pump. You would only feel a 'bump' in the wheel rather than a hard over, which would give you a much better chance at reacting to your failure i.e. chopping the throttles and keeping the boat on an even keel.
I'm sure the offshore racing guys and riggers have a much better knowledge of all of this than myself- I'm only speaking from my personal experience. I DO know that you should never skimp on steering, and if I ever get into another twin, I'm going to figure some way of running a pump on each engine.
Jim

you have about 400psi in each cylinder on a external steering system fighting each other to keep the drive straight ,what do you think would happend if you running at WOP and one of those cylinders/lines sprunk a leak??
I agree that hydraulic system is a better steering system and would help chine walk and better steering responce,I just dont know that is that much safer than cable steering.
with that been said I would like to upgrade my boat to full hydraulic because it chine walks,but I dont know that it would be any safe as far as loosing steering goes.

How does throwing a belt or a pump suddenly stop turning on the cable setup cause a boat to turn sharply? I'd just think the steering would get hard to turn. Must be wrong though.

I agree with some others. No one seems to mention the possibilty of a HYD hose/fitting failure, resulting in an immediate loss of control. There's alot of hose and fittings in a full hyd setup.

jafo,
Fountain uses the priorty valve on all their twin engine setups. I don't think it as 1 motor being a master, the other a slave. But as both suppling in a balanced equal output keeping the valve centered. But as soon as 1 motor dies, the valve shifts to block the dead motor and then goes solely on the remaining running motor. PS always. :)

I see tons of twin engine boats where both motors are eqiuped with PS pumps, hoses, and coolers, but only one is being used. The other motor simply has the input and output hoses connected in a loop to keep the system sealed, but with no belt installed. Merc ships the motors out equiped, the boat manufatures just leave the access. intact. Wouldn't be very hard to add the priorty valve and a couple hoses to have this option working. Why the boat makers don't add this little extra detail when both motors are eqquiped is beyond me. The additional cost has to be minimal.

I had a hose crack at wot. It put the boat in a slow turn for a second before I knew something was wrong and pulled power back just in time before the unknown could happen. I had no steering and used the throttles at idle speed to steer in to dock. Not something you ever want to happen. Lucky it was flat water.

Rich

[QUOTE=BOSSMAN;2413910]I had a hose crack at wot. It put the boat in a slow turn for a second before I knew something was wrong and pulled power back just in time before the unknown could happen. I had no steering and used the throttles at idle speed to steer in to dock. Not something you ever want to happen. Lucky it was flat water.

Rich[/QUOTE
If that hose had come off it would have turn sharply on you,
you were lucky it cracked and had a small leak and not complete lost of presure on the cylinder.

I would have to say there are lots of things that "could" happen and be dangerous.

Lose a steering cable
Blow a hyd hose
Grenade a u-joint
Crack a gimbal ring
Hit a wave wrong
Blow a drive

As the speeds get higher, so does the risk of getting hurt. I believe full hyd steering makes the boat handle safer, and less chances of steering failure, but is not the end all safety add on that means its okay to go out and run balls out care free. anything could happen. With that being said, I think cable steering doesnt belong on a offshore boat. JMO

Hydraulic and proper maintenance - inspections, hardware ... etc.... is the only way to go. Too many points of contact within the factory system that gets sloppy after time goes on.

I've been ejected and it wasn't fun...... nor where the next 8 days trying to find the boat.

Stupid questions!! If you use add on steering, you would still have the cable as backup if the Hyd. system failed?!? What are the pros/cons of Full Hyd., Add-on Hyd., and Mechanical (Power assist)??

The add on system still uses the cable, which I believe is the weak point in the system. Most guys who put the "add on" system, later went to a full system.

I know my old boat with the cable rack system sucks. The cable gets worn, the rack gets worn, the little tie bar pins get worn, and the gimbal shafts get worn. What ends up is nothing but slop.

Anything can happen at any time nothing is completly safe or unbreakable .I guess my question is by installing a partial single hyd steering system what am I protecting myself over mechanical steering. Most of the problems above are not linkage related they seem to be hyd steering pump related.I have no problem dropping an extra 3000 or more on the upgrade for saftey I just want to know why.It seems the upgrade is mostly a handling upgrade to me.

Im no steering expert, but I believe with the add on, you will be taking the slack from any worn parts like the gimbals, internal linkage, and the overall steering should be better handling I believe, because the outdrives are now controlled by the hydraulic pistons mounted to them, rather than the links, rods, pins, bolts, etc, that control their movement without external steering. Im not sure if im making any sense or not here.

Mild thunder I appreicate your help Im heading over to my dealer tomorrow to finalize the upgrades raylar and hyd steering and I am just trying to get as much info as I can so I can make intelligent desicions on the upgrades thanks.

Hydraulic snubber cylinders
 

It seems Drew Marine had hydraulic cylinders that were independent of the steering and were there simply to arrest any quick turns on the outdrive. They were basically like shock absorbers to slow down the side to side motion. It was connected between the transom and the outdrive. It can be used on either mechanical or hydraulic systems. Makes sense to me.

I was thinking of going that way
has anybody tried them??

I know a guy that used to run the Rinker/Sunsation dealership at LOTO that Pro-Charged a 24' Rinker Flotilla to run in the Shootout. I believe he had this boat running well into the 90's. One day he broke the gimbal ring running at speed and he and his passengers went on one wild ride with the drive flopping off the back of the transom. This happened with a peg-leg (single ram) partial hydraulic system. If you like running your boat like a jet ski as your avatar suggests (by the way, these boats aren't jet skis), you would be well advised to go with a dual-ram system to keep that drive in place.

control, control, control.
Every race boat on the circuit uses them.

Don't waste your time or money. I tried them many years ago. I can't believe the are still selling them.

Zieger and Latham Marine both make dual pump kits with priority valves. I'm sure others do too.

That must have been some Rinker to be running in the 90's with a procharger.My buddy had a 24' a Searay with a Blower shop 850hp dyno'ed motor and he was only getting about low- mid 80's he got rid of the hull because it was a death trap.I used to race those jetski's back in the day so I know what they look like but thanks for the tip.The Avatar shot was taken while passing my old mans boat.

Nice to know that there are kits out there and mfg's are using them (previous post about Fountain noted).
It's simple enough- if you have a twin-engine installation with only one pump and you fail that engine or pump at WOT, you can expect a wild ride.

You can buy this valve from Sun Hydraulics in FL. It is inexpensive.

MobileMercMan
 

MobileMercMan:
Are you referring to the Drew Machine snubbers, or to someone else's post/or product. It was unclear.

What was wrong with the idea? How were they mouneted? Any more specifics?

I live in Austin, in Westlake, let's get together and talk boats over a beer. I will buy.

Jim Vonwolske
512 577 7374

Flotilla's have a cat-style hull, thus the ability to get the big numbers out of them. It had to be a death trap at speed. The guy who ran the boat (Jeff Gibbs) is one crazy mofo, but also one heck of a driver.

To answer the initial question, you should try driving a boat without power steering.

At 50+, you'll get some muscles. At 60+, you have to hold on to the spokes to keep the wheel from spinning.

There is a ton of force involved with keeping the drive straight. the steering is the area that has to counteract that force. External steering is simply set up better to handle that force.

Hello Jim,
The drew things I tried at a customers request were the shock type steering stabilizers. He had a 25 excaliber TRS the shocks made little difference and in my opinion were not rugged enough for what they were being asked to do. I have not kept up with their products to know what is presently available. I thought at the time their approach was wrong. If the steering is loose fix it or add hydraulic.
I would like to get together with you sometime. You can find my contact info at http://mobilemercman.com

Similar to these?

Knot 4 Me,
I can't tell for sure by the picture but they look bigger. I have a different opinion on ways to address a loose steering problem. If steering is loose fix it or add a hydraulic system. Everything else is a compromise.

On my twin engine boat I just replaced the helm,new cable,new hydraulic rack,new gimbal rings,and stainless gimbal ring pins,I pretty much have a new steering system,boat on a good day does 68-69 mph,I was thinking of adding the drew sidewinders for extra protection,do you think it a waste ??

Mobilemercman
 

As I understand it, the Drew snubbers are intended as an independent addition to the regular steering. Connected to an independent place on the transom and on the outdrive.

Cetainly, one should fix any problems with their steering including any wobble, loose joints, or instability. But the scenario I am discussing is if the main steering breaks and the drives want to slam to the left or right. The snubbers are there to slow down that slam effect to allow the driver to back off the throttle as quickly as he can in the few seconds it takes for the Drew units to stroke to hard left or right rudder.

Comments welcome.

We certainly can't all agree.

How about some questions. boatnt don't you think your new steering will have to work against your snubbers and wear out faster than the last time? vonwolske I understand the intention: I disagree with the usefullness. The snubbers don't lock so what difference do you really think turning a little slower than instantly will matter? Did any bodies' steering get loose all at once? How often do you check for play in steering? Won't they prevent you from checking for play? Doesn't everybody do a preflight check before leaving? Don't they just hide the play that is present? Does anyone get a discount on their insurance because of them? Has anyone been saved by them? I guess that's enough sorry to carry on like this. Really

Thanks for your input,I thought about the steering fighting the snubbers also.
what would you recomend on a twin engine set up that does about 68mph?is regular cable steering enough as long as its in good condition?

I would think so.

I have drew marine sidewinders on my scarab 22. running 500 hp plus, and they made a big differnce in my ride and safety. money will spent. i have no more chin walk at all ,i am running in lake erie, big water.