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Will our government force us to use E85

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Old 02-22-2008, 08:23 PM
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Default Will our government force us to use E85

I was talking with some buddies about this the other day. Given the current push to use Ethanol by our fine leaders in D.C., I was wondering if any OSO members have thought about this issue.

I know when you switch a drag car to run Methanol the fuel consuption is just about double. What would we need to change on our boats to run E85 or 100% Ethanol for that matter?

Fuel lines and tanks?
Increase fuel delivery system capacity?
Will the valves and seats handle it?

I did find this info:
Gasoline: 1 Gal Gasoline (mid grade) = 125,000 Btu's
Ethanol: 1 Gal Ethanol = 76,000 Btu's

Seems like corrosion would be an issue also.

Last edited by Viper31; 02-22-2008 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 02-22-2008, 08:32 PM
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Was in a ford shop today talking to one of my customers he was working on a car that was towed in.Tested the fuel it was E85 or better.Car would not run on it the test on the fuel is very easy.Empty a soda bottle and fill 1/2 with water and the other half with fuel sample.let it sit for about an hour and the alcohol will blend with the water gas will remain on top % of fuel verses water will tell you what you have
But to answer your question no we can not produce enough
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Old 02-22-2008, 11:39 PM
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Why are drag cars so much worse? Indy cars went to Straight Ethanol last year and were able to make the fuel tank 20 gal instead of 30. US auto makes will have to switch to more turbo charged engines. The the milage goes up with ethanol, not down.
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Old 02-22-2008, 11:45 PM
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Besides, I understand ethanol is simply the first and fastest version to get on the market. I've been hearing about a new version called biobutanol. It's not corosive, so it can be pumped thru piplines. It has more btus. current ethanol plants can be converted and it can be made from grain or celulos.
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Old 02-23-2008, 12:32 AM
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I saw on the news the other day something to the effect that the results of a study showed the net effect of using all this ethanol is it will increase global warming since we are knocking down so many trees to plant corn and such. Maybe I misunderstood, wasn't really paying attention, but it did make me chuckle. I can just hear the ethanol lovers going "DOH!!"
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Old 02-23-2008, 01:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper31 View Post
I was talking with some buddies about this the other day. Given the current push to use Ethanol by our fine leaders in D.C., I was wondering if any OSO members have thought about this issue.
No
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Old 02-23-2008, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Payton View Post
Why are drag cars so much worse? Indy cars went to Straight Ethanol last year and were able to make the fuel tank 20 gal instead of 30. US auto makes will have to switch to more turbo charged engines. The the milage goes up with ethanol, not down.
E-85 has got a catch 22 sorta thing going on. True it has about 45,000 less BTUs than regular gas. But it has an octane rating of 105. There are a few ways to burn this new brew. First them there new Flex fuel engines that automatically adjust the fuel injection system to burn what ever you put in the tank. Next step if your a hot rodder and are running a high performance Holley carburetor you can retune it to run on E-85. Now what Payton hit on is the "final solution". The Indy cars are purpose built engines from the inside out. E-85 is 85% pure ethanol and 15% gasoline. The 15% gasoline is added to help with cold starting. Now ethanol has less energy than gasoline but lot higher octane rating. In a purpose built engine this higher octane rating allows you to run higher compression ratios. Ah yes the good ole days are back go dig them high domed pistons out of the shed. The engines we run today built for pump gas are very inefficient because of the lower compression ratios. now build an engine with 12 to 1 or 13 to 1 maybe even higher. You will be able to wring more BTUs out of the ethanol and the higher octane rating will keep detonation down. Viper is right present day engine + E-85 = High fuel consumption BUT! Payton is also right Purpose built engine + ethanol = Lower fuel consumption. Now here is some food for thought. Build your engines from the ground up to run on near pure ethanol. Build in a second fuel circuit. Something simple like if ya have a Holley carb just mount an electric fuel injector in the manifold plenum and plumb it to EFI pump and wire it to the starter circuit so when you hit the starter it gives the engine a shot of regular to help with cold starting. Now you can go out and buy ethanol on the industrial market ad some minor lubricants and emulsifiers violla tax free fuel that gives great power output. Its time to take them lemons and make some lemon beer
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Old 02-23-2008, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 29Firefox View Post
E-85 has got a catch 22 sorta thing going on. True it has about 45,000 less BTUs than regular gas. But it has an octane rating of 105. There are a few ways to burn this new brew. First them there new Flex fuel engines that automatically adjust the fuel injection system to burn what ever you put in the tank. Next step if your a hot rodder and are running a high performance Holley carburetor you can retune it to run on E-85. Now what Payton hit on is the "final solution". The Indy cars are purpose built engines from the inside out. E-85 is 85% pure ethanol and 15% gasoline. The 15% gasoline is added to help with cold starting. Now ethanol has less energy than gasoline but lot higher octane rating. In a purpose built engine this higher octane rating allows you to run higher compression ratios. Ah yes the good ole days are back go dig them high domed pistons out of the shed. The engines we run today built for pump gas are very inefficient because of the lower compression ratios. now build an engine with 12 to 1 or 13 to 1 maybe even higher. You will be able to wring more BTUs out of the ethanol and the higher octane rating will keep detonation down. Viper is right present day engine + E-85 = High fuel consumption BUT! Payton is also right Purpose built engine + ethanol = Lower fuel consumption. Now here is some food for thought. Build your engines from the ground up to run on near pure ethanol. Build in a second fuel circuit. Something simple like if ya have a Holley carb just mount an electric fuel injector in the manifold plenum and plumb it to EFI pump and wire it to the starter circuit so when you hit the starter it gives the engine a shot of regular to help with cold starting. Now you can go out and buy ethanol on the industrial market ad some minor lubricants and emulsifiers violla tax free fuel that gives great power output. Its time to take them lemons and make some lemon beer

Sounds good, except for the lemon beer
I was told yesterday, by a guy that is paid to know these things, that this new product Biobutanol at a B85 mix can run in present day gas, diesel and jet engines. My first thoughts were that sounds to good to be true.

Here is a very intresting article on Biobutanol.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/12...er-white-meat/
The guy I talked to may be wrong about the diesel thing.

Last edited by Payton; 02-23-2008 at 08:44 AM. Reason: found more info
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Old 02-23-2008, 09:23 AM
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Actually E-85, and straight Ethanol, require MORE fuel than gasoline...

Some basic Air Fuel Ratio Numbers:

Gasoline 12:1
E-85 9:1
Ethanol 7:1
Methanol 6:1
Nitromethane 1.7:1

You can build a higher compression (or boost) engine using E-85, but it will use more fuel no matter what! E-85 requires approximately 33% more fuel than gasoline!

As far as production goes we (the US) are using Corn which is not as efficient as using Sugar as they do in other countries. The price is cheap (Right now) due to the subsidies the corn growers get from our gov't, but that would change.

E-85 is a great fuel for someone that is running an engine that requires over 100 Octane (old muscle cars, boats with old race engines, etc.) however it does not make Long Term sense for the overall population. With the decrease in mileage it actually winds up consuming a similar amount of fossil fuels as standard petroleum.

The second thought would be if we go through and re-power our marine engines to "optimize" them to run on E-85 or any newer fuel that will potentially leave us open to the impending C.A.R.B. emission laws for boats. Rumor has it this one is going to be based on when the engine is installed in the boat (even a rebuild or freshen up) not the year of the boat... So if you re-power your 70's Magnum in 2009 it would need to meet 2009 emissions....
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Old 02-23-2008, 09:58 AM
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I was always thought that if the btu's per gallon were less so was the mpg, no matter what the compression. Less energy per gallon so you have to burn more of it to make the same power. Am I wrong? Doug
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