E85 85% Corn Alcohol (ethanol)
 

This is in are future. I was wondering if anybody is experimenting with this? Evinrude debut the 300 Etec in South America. I wonder if Evinrude is testing with this fuel? E85 is widely used there. Brazil is the largest manufacturer of this fuel in the world. They make it from sugarcane. They are getting away from petrol based fuel, so should we. E85 octane rating is somewhere in the 100's. You burn about a 1/3 more than petrol based fuel. Upside, it's a cooler and better burning fuel. Much less carbon particulate matter (green). Depending on the aplication, you could run more timing or boost. It would be cool if someone made software for ecu's, so you could switch back and forth from E85 to 87 or 93 oct with a couple of key strokes. You could use your lap top or a flash loader connected to your engine's ECU. You could go fast and be environmentally friendly as well. You can make E85 from any plant material, even algae. This could be are fuel for next level in performance for marine applications. I am not a tree hugger, just thinking about the future for me and everyone else.

Screw OPEC and the middle east.

What do you guys think?

I think it would be pretty easy for the direct injected outboards and the fuel injected inboards to run E85. Definately not rocket science. Just need a cheap sensor to check fuel alcohol level, bigger injectors and additional fuel curves set up in the computer. It would also require a closed venting system for the fuel system to avoid water absorbtion.

The media has been blasting corn alcohol, but I saw a algea farm set up in Arizona that looked promising for alcohol production. If the scientists can figure out how to make alcohol out of any plant matter, I think we could achieve oil independence in a few years.

Make sure you don't have a 'glass tank, your rubbers are ethanol compatible, add a good "tune" and you're off!

I think its the best solution out there for the fuel crisis, I was wondering if anyone has added a add on E85 brain box on there trucks? I've read a little on the web and you can buy one for $400 just a plug and go deal any thoughts???

We are coming to an era where blown alcohol and turbo alcohol 700 cu in bigblocks can be environmentally friendly. 1500 hp flex fuel motors. That would be f---ing cool. E85 is cheaper than race fuel. 110 or 115 oct is what, 5 bucks or more a gal.

Those of us with diesel powered vehicles can run bio-diesel. There are misconceptions about that. Actually its better for your engine than ultra low sulpher.

There is a new product called biobutanol that may be even better than ethanol. Current ethanol plants can be switched over fairly easily. It burns a lot more like gas and can be burned in any car with no mods.Also it does not attract water. It can be made from any product that we make ethanol from.

It's crap fuel that without subsidy would be the way of the dodo bird where it belongs.

subsidy
 

dude, how has your trip ? burn any bio-diesel while land bound, yep subsidy ! :cool-smiley-027:

Doing some testing with it now. It has some draw backs, and some advantages too. Problem is that it's not available anywhere on the water yet that I know of.

The problem with ethanol its that is virtually imposible to find.The goverment pushes car manufactures for alternatives fuel to wash their hands, cause there are only a couple of filling station in the whole country, and then exxon and all the big boys can have record earnings as we've seen.

The oil companies buy most of it to mix 10% with gasoline. Production of ethanol isn't high enough yet. Probably never will be unless they develop the process to make it from cellulose. Making it from corn is just driving up food prices.

Ethanol has many problems. First and foremost, ethanol the production of ethanol consumes more energy to produce than can be attained from burning it. Secondly, more pollution is created making it than it contributes to the reduction of emissions by burning it in a 10 - 15% mix. Third, because it contains less latent potential energy than petroleum fuels, it yields less power and decreases mileage, causing all of us to consume more than running straight gasoline. Lastly, the residual effects of tyeing up so much of corn resources, it's causing untold snowball effects all across the globe.

Ethanol makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

A decent article from the St. Pete Times yesterday:

Ethanol may have it's purpose. However, the American Petroleum Industry ( api.com ) offer interesting concerns on their web-site.

The state of Hawaii has been there,done that, in their marine fuel. In fact, they appear to have legislated a reverse mandate that prevents Ethanol Blend Marine Fuel sales.
Press releases discuss safety,engine problems,fuel tank deterioration and etc.. The common denominator between Hawaii and the American Petroleum Industry sounds very similar.

Ethanol appears to draw moisture/water like a magnet is attracted to steel. The boat sits in the water with open fuel tank vents. High humidity is drawn in through the vents and phase separation is the next step. Once phase separation is complete,sludge occurs and if not drained,will cause further problems. As sludge is drained it must be disposed of....Where ?

In summary, Ethanol appears to not be a good product for use in Marine Fuel applications. 87 octane and 100LL av gas w/ lube added, makes much more sense to me.

very informative ccdo :cool-smiley-011:

A lot of it's been said already, but i'll have a go also.

E85 contains something like 15% or 20% less energy than gasoline, so you burn more of it.

Ethanol attracts water like a sponge, so fuel storage and filtration systems on board should be redesigned to deal with this.

Ethanol production from corn is either a slight net loss in energy or a slight net gain, depending on which study you read. Ethanol from sugar cane is a different story, i have never read a study on it but it is my understanding that it is a far easier process and a large net energy gain. There are technologies out there to make ethanol from algae and from switchgrass, but these technologies are in their infancy and still very expensive. However, they should result in a large net energy gain once perfected.

With a handful of sensors, a closed loop fuel injection system (currently only available on one marine engine, from indmar) and quite a bit of tuning time, engines can be set up to run on any mix from pure gas to E85 without any user intervention. I have a friend who does engine calibration, he has done work on this type of calibration. It's complicated, but not difficult with todays technology.

Older fiberglass gas tanks use resin that will break down from contact with ethanol. Newer fiberglass tanks use a different resin and are compatible with ethanol. Same story with fuel hoses, if you run E10 (most of us have to now) make sure your fuel hose has the appropriate SAE markings on it, I believe it's SAE J1527, but that's totally off the top of my head so don't quote me on that.

From a national policy standpoint, our best bet right now is to encourage DEVELOPEMENT of ethanol production, rather than actual ethanol production. Corn ethanol, not so good. sugar ethanol, good. switch grass or algae ethanol, may be good in the future. Problem is, we don't grow much sugar in the states (hawaii excluded). We're better off encouraging diesel vehicle sales and cranking up biodiesel production, mandating B10 or B20 at the pumps the same way E10 is mandated now. It takes more crude oil to make a gallon of diesel than it does to make a gallon of gas, so this would be far better energy policy.

The problems with ethanol can all be overcome, but we're not there yet. Not time to dive in headfirst, but in the future it will be a great energy alternative.

And if you want high octane, E85 is close to 105 octane and is cheaper than race gas.

The bio-fuel industry in still in its infancy as far as economy of scale and which fuel will be the best option. Oil companies have been killing most of the synthetic/bio fuel development for a hundred years. Who knows what ideas have been supressed.

Lets get our options out there and find the best alternative. Even if corn isn't the best sugar/starch crop, advances in fermentation technologies is a good thing. Opinions will change about alternate fuels when gas hits 10.00 a gallon.

No one should argue against developing alternative energy,alternative fuel included. Conversely,to automatically accept a product that is said to have safety issues,economic impact and envireomental concerns,not only appears naive,but irresponsible. Specifically,Ethanol Blend Fuel for Marine Engine use.

Logically,Legislature is not aware of problems and hazards associated with using Ethanol Blend in Marine Fuel. Otherwise,they would have excluded marine use from the mandate. However,as Hawaii has corrected their oversight,so can the remaining states.

The resolve should be as simple as contacting the elected representatives and educating them about the urgent problem.

Not a very good summary. The phase separation problem is a problem of gasoline-ethanol blends, so your conclusion should be that those blends are not good products for use in Marine Fuel applications.

If you don't blend the ethanol with gasoline in the first place, then absorbing water doesn't cause any phase separation. On the other hand, gasoline is blended with ethanol at least in part to allow for better cold weather starts. Neet ethanol can be a better marine fuel than gasoline-ethanol blends as long as you are only operating in a warm climate or if the cold start problem is otherwise compensated for (which current EFI systems already largely do.)

It manufacturing process isnt practical for its environmental benefit today, of course. That is because it is in its infancy. Its going to take several years to refine the way it is manufactured. Then its production will equal its environmental benefit.

Is its energy it contains measured by weight or volume? Why do top fuel nitro burning engines use alcohol with nitro and not high oct petrol race fuel?

As far as us using it in marine application, we have to make changes as well. I find it hard to believe no one could make a water fuel separator that will work well for E85. Making the types of seals and other hardware that wont be harmed or dissolve isnt a big issue.

I see resistance from some people on this alternative fuel topic. They are afraid of change or giving something new a chance.

TKF Chicago, Your profile discloses an interesting Resume'. Obviously,you have extensive insight.

Therefore,the argument is NOT anti-change against a new or alternative fuel. To the contrary,any and all practical options SHOULD be explored.

Ethanol Blend Fuel has been given an extended opportunity to perform in the application of Marine Fuel. The assumed fact is, Ethanol in its present formula has not performed satisfactorily in Marine use. At such time the formula is proven acceptable for the application,bring it on.

Meanwhile,lets assume Hawaii legislature didn't address their original position just for something to do. No,they did reportedly catch their over sight,correct it and set precedence.

As I said before, you can make fuel from any plant material. Those of you who concerned about it having an impact on food production. Not going to happen. You can make it from plant celulose or the bi-product of plants after we are done harvesting and processing for food.

Well put. Yes, it is going to take time. The resources are there. The government needs to get off thier ass and invest some time and money into this. The bottom line, there are alternative fuels. We don't need fossil fuels. It takes are lives to be pulled out from underneath us to change as a society.

It is a little appalling, this thread has not received more participation. It would be interesting to see a show of hands,for or against Ethanol Blend Marine Fuel.

Extensive reports suggest Ethanol Blend is NOT marine use compatible.

I HATE ETHANOL in the MARINE FUEL!If it did not exist I would not have to make a 1500mile run to Skater,leaving Sun returning Mon:(

I wouldn't say it's appalling, I would say it's not a problem for everyone. I understand your concern with your fiberglass tanks. Starting 5 years ago I have been useing gasahol (E10) about 50% of the time, the last 2 years 100% of the time. I have not had a single issue. I've got aluminum tanks in a 17year oldboat.

You mean E10, not E90.

yep, fixed it, thanx

Payton, What brand and formulation of fuel have you been using ? Have you taken any maintainance precautions not taken when using straight gasoline ? Do you use fuel/ water separators ? How long does your boat stay in the water?

Sure, I have concern for fiberglass tanks. However,the bigger picture includes safety,marine economic impact and pollution,the same items Hawaii reportedly considered for their reverse mandate.

The guts of the matter appears to be phase separation. Therefore,pending a solution for phase separation,why not endorse Hawaii's position?

Ethanol will cause your aluminum tanks to corrode! It is not an issue of IF,BUT WHEN ! Not to mention Ethanol attracts moisture,so have good fuel/water separators and check them often!:D

As I said earlier.... It's a sh!t fuel.

It's only advantage is that it makes the "Spotted Owl Kisser" liberals feel good.

A gallon of ethanol contains approx. 80,000 BTUs. A gallons of unleaded regular contains about 119,000 BTUs. As a result, a standard barrel (42 gallons) of ethanol is worth about 28 gallons of gasoline. So it takes 50% more Ethanol to replace the energy stored in Gasoline.

And as mentioned above it takes 3 times more energy to get Ethanol in your gas tank than gas. Making it a MONUMENTAL WASTE OF MONEY imposed to us by the Government.

What it is actually is a derived way to provide Farm subsidy, period.

It still is a sh!t fuel both by it's volumetric energy density and it's MONUMENTALLY ENORMOUS carbon footprint for you "bark Chewers"... :D

And to quote Forrest Gump.... " That's all I have to say about that." :drink:

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Older fiberglass gas tanks use resin that will break down from contact with ethanol. Newer fiberglass tanks use a different resin and are compatible with ethanol. Same story with fuel hoses, if you run E10 (most of us have to now) make sure your fuel hose has the appropriate SAE markings on it, I believe it's SAE J1527, but that's totally off the top of my head so don't quote me on that.

[/QUOTE]

Ethanol will break down newer fiberglass tanks .. been there done that...

The brands I use are small companys The local
farm Bureau delivers to our yard. I fill ere when my boat is home. They have their own refinery and haul and blend their own ethanol. When my boat is at the marina (75% of the time) I use Family Express, an Indiana chain of stations that also have their own refineries. There is a station 1/4 mile from my marina that also carries E85. My boat is left on my trailer locked up inside a building. My fuel water separators are replaced every year after my initial spring startup. My fuel tanks are left as empty as I dare run the boat and treated with Sea Foam.

I really should stop posting on these Ethanol threads because I am on the other side of the issue than most of you. I raise corn, a lot of corn.

a little on subsidies.

On April 25, 2006, President Bush stated `Record oil prices and large cash flows also mean that Congress has got to understand that these energy companies don't need unnecessary tax breaks like the write-offs of certain geological and geophysical expenditures, or the use of taxpayers' money to subsidize energy companies research into deep water drilling. I'm looking forward to Congress to take about $2 billion of these tax breaks out of the budget over a 10-year period of time. Cash flows are up. Taxpayers don't need to be paying for certain of these expenses on behalf of the energy companies.'

On that timeline, big oil is still getting subsidies AND record profits.

Exxon Mobil Corp. shattered its own record as the world's most profitable publicly traded corporation, as rising oil prices helped the company bring in better-than-ever income and revenue for the fourth quarter and 2007.

I support the american farmer. After all, corn isn't just for taco shells.

Thanks Guys, perhaps there is a little light at the end of the tunnel,after all.

Payton,you have never even been considered a nin-compoop,to the contrary. Your posts have brought meaningful contribution to this group,with a little commercial thrown in from time to time.... And thats OK.

I'm well aware of the hardships farmers have endured,over years and generations. Such as,no control over prices,drought,to much rain,blight,insects,disease,machinery costs and ETC. (For those that don't know,the farmer has recently,been said to work for $0.50 an hour. And,during the 30's depression, $0.50/DAY,if one could even get a job.)

Therefore,the farmer is not to be held accountable for any world problems. However,it is discerning that commodity pricing may be a house of cards.

The most pro-active influence the farmer may make is to recognize SAFE applications for their products.In so doing,the farmer can argue for time and support.

This forum is focused, comparatively on a very small number of boats and gallons used. While there is mumbling and grumbling here,this doesn't hold a candle to the little old lady with the Lawn Mower,Ducks Unlimited Fisherman and the Sierra Club activist.

While one goes through life,three points to consider,Have fun,Make contribution to society and Make a little money. I have enough farmer/rancher blood to NOT comfortably blow the whistle.

Therefore,Payton,you,your influence and associates could be Knights in Shining Armour by participating/leading a Reverse Mandate for Ethanol Blend Marine Fuel. And, perhaps small engine fuel.

CcanDo, thank you.

Do some resarch on Biobutanol. That product is why I believe Ethanol is simply the first and short lived step.
I think I'll buy stock in Dupont and BP now while farming is profitable.:drink:
I've always felt it made better bussines sence to produce a product that people want to buy rather than are mandated to buy.

I saw where weat prices are going through the roof now because everyone is growing corn for ethanol.

I say we just drill for oil in Alaska & build new refineries to keep up w/ demand

Payton, As we are leaning across the fence,chewing on the straw and solving the worlds problems,your comment about Dupont brings to mind a, cute, true story.

My wife had a Great Uncle,Mr.Frank Walton. Mr. Walton was a descendant of Mr. Walton that was included in signing The Declaration Of Independence.

Frank Walton was a $1.00/yr. man during World War Two,in charge of all U.S. Government Textile Purchases. Ms.Eleanor Roosevelt chastised Mr. Walton for shortening the soldiers trousers,above the ankle. Ms.Roosevelt argued it was unbecoming. Mr.Walton explained,it was a mandate,there was a shortage of wool and by shortening the trousers,material was available for more wool trousers.

Mr.Walton also took pride in personally funding Dupont $50,000 for R&D and a government contract for a NEW product,later known as NYLON.

Cash talks and Hash walks....I would donate my $1,000.00 towards a charitable entity formed to Reverse Mandate Marine Ethanol Blend Fuel.

Are other option is Bio-Diesel. I see on a regular basis that diesel pickups with Cummins, Powerstrokes, and Duramax's can make 700-800 reliable horsepower. 1000-1200 foot pound of torque. Hook that up to your speedmaster. Mr. Bob Teague is experimenting with that. I like the test on the diesel powered Nortech in Power Boat.

Lets hear it gentleman.

For all them people the keep saying it takes more energy to produce the energy in ethanol. Ya'all need to quit drinking that Koolaid. Face the facts everyone is in this for the money. If it wasn't financially sound no one would do it. Look at how long Brazil has been doing it and it's not only Brazil. There is ethanol usage all over the third world. Poor people can't afford petroleum. Here's a site that will link you to a lot of info on both sides of the argument.:p

http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html