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Diesels for boats

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Old 04-06-2008, 01:16 PM
  #21
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Njawb,

Presumption? I may have worded it hastily, but my point is most people on here want a diesel to get away from the problems they have with gas engines. Building a Racing style diesel, very hi-output, systems that are not ment to run for thousands of hours trouble-free is no better than the gas engine.

As far as fuels go and bio-diesel, keeping the world green, renewable resources, costs, etc, etc please go to this link (it takes forever to load) http://www.powerhomebiz.com/News/032...ating-sets.htm

You see I have another life other than the clothing I make, I was brought in this year to a rental utilities company. My goal is to be the biggest "Green Power" renter in the country.

I will be on the Today Show May 3rd at the Tribeca Film Festival, GreenbyDesign is doing a 30 minute show on me and customers like Gucci, UNICEF, United Nations and Madonna use us because I'm taking the lead on bio-fueled diesels for portable power generation.

So, I 110% agree about your points of doing the same as a gas engine except with diesel type fuels is a giant step forward.

I applaud people who are making those strides but my point was and maybe I didn't say it clear was - The Duramaxx that is being shown on here is most likely not going to be the cure-all of diesels. The pictures alone show design issues that make it not a viable replacement for gas or conventional diesels and in my opinion and only mine alone (maybe) when engines like that go into the marketplace and someone like Jassman buys it and should they have trouble with it - it will make diesels on a whole look bad in this little segment of the market. Because the company that made it will not have spare parts on the shelf, techs other than their own that have to fly or drive for days to where the boat is and then there are questions as to what is or is not covered by a "gray" warranty - it will cast a shadow on diesel powered go-fast boats again in the US.

I hope I'm making myself clear?

Joe Gere
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Old 04-06-2008, 02:18 PM
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You're saying that you dont think banks will stand behind their engines? What exactly do you see that looks like a potential prob issue? the attraction of the duramax is lighter weight, better fuel mielage , more torque and a higher rpm range than the cummins. that makes them attractive to a performance boater looking for an alternative to gas. (ie : for something like a 36-40' cat application) What are your thoughts on 2 speed trannies/drives for this app?
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Old 04-06-2008, 03:04 PM
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Stainless,

With all due respect Banks was never mentioned but I will answer that question. Banks does not build a complete 600hp or 800hp Duramaxx Marine Diesel that sell to the general public - so whether they would or would not cover it is not an issue.

I think Banks is a great company any they would never put out a product that would hurt their brand, which is why I don't think you'll ever see more than just parts from them and not a complete engine.

When you buy aftermarket hot rod parts from anyone Banks, Weiland, etc, etc they only cover their part, no one covers an application or damage to your existing engine as they can not determined the levels of wear or health nor do they assume liability for any losses etc.

All aftermarket parts markers, performance gainers or whatever you call them only stand behind their parts and nothing else.

As far as your comments as to the Duramaxx (marine) getting better fuel economy than a Cummins (marine) engine. You can't prove that all, because the High Hp Duramaxx don't exist in real world applications. And I would bet you money that the Duramaxx pictured on this thread burns more lb/hp/hr than the Cummins does. As far as more torque again that is speculative but any engine at the same rpm, with the same Hp has equal torque, it's just math, and there are no ISO certified curves for that Duramaxx that is on here published as far as I can tell. Higher engine rpm's yes the Duramax is higher but what does that matter - nothing at all, the gearing makes everything equal. Don't forget the higher the rpm for equal Hp the less torque the engine makes - it's just math.

I believe whole hearted in the 2-speed theory, my posts reflect us using a "slipper" trans which for lack of a better desription acts like a 2 speed - you can rev the engine higher than normal to get into the powerband and have a slower prop speed. You lock it up and now with the engine running at a higher rpm the prop catches up - 2 speeds. That application has been in European diesel race boats since the 80's - only people here in the US didn't want to here it.

Joe Gere
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Old 04-06-2008, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by HabanaJoe View Post
I hope I'm making myself clear?
Not entirely, Joe.

It is now entirely clear that we have a common interest in the biodiesel future, but I'm still not clear how you think that future will or should come to high-performance boating. Do you think what Mercury, Cummins, and Yanmar are now willing to factory warranty is the limit of what can or should be gotten from a marine diesel aimed at the high-performance boating market? I find that hard to believe from the engineer who used to be at the heart of AMT. Likewise, I'd be stunned if you thought that nobody can advance high-performance marine diesels any faster than those three companies (or Navistar, Kubota, GM, Ford, VW, Mercedes, etc.)

What I think is far more likely is that the world's big automakers will increasingly make diesel engines aimed at the passenger car market -- diesel engines that are more and more like gasoline automotive engines, and less and less like current truck and heavy equipment diesel engines. By that I mean physically smaller, lighter weight engines built from more alloys and high-tech materials and processes, designed to produce more horsepower at higher RPM. I think that marinizing those engines will result in products that will work very well for high-performance boaters. I don't think that the big automakers or Mercury will be leading the way to those marinized, high-performance, car-based diesels. I think the ones pushing that envelope will be small engineering (or should I say "hot rodding"?) companies similar to what AMT was.

Someday, the likes of Mercury, Cummins, and Yanmar may find it profitable to produce fully supported and warrantied marine engines that will have performance numbers comparable to those the hot rodders produced years earlier -- it's happened before. In the meantime, boaters will have a choice between more conservative, heavier, truck-based engines that come with support networks and factory warranties or hot rodded, lighter weight, often light-duty or car-based engines without the support networks and factory warranties.

I don't think there is anything wrong with that -- at least as long as companies are clear which they are selling and boaters are clear which they are buying.

And, of course, no matter how the diesel future plays out, there will be plenty to talk about.

Last edited by Njawb; 04-06-2008 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 04-06-2008, 03:55 PM
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To split the discussion off onto another track, Joe, what do you think of the idea of marinizing a two-stroke, aviation-oriented diesel engine?
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Old 04-06-2008, 04:23 PM
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Your right, I was missing/clouding my own point - I can be wrong at times

I'm not saying that these small companies can't make advances, I guess I'm upset at the fact that people take what is not big factory backed, does not have thousands of hours of testing behind it and think because it is a diesel it's going to last like a 6-71 would.

The remark about those 3 engines companies, I just couldn't list them all, that was not literal, I apologize for that.

Your also right about the auto makers will make the greatest leaps in diesel technology as time goes on, they have to meet the needs of the world. One fear is they might make diesels as disposable as a gas engine.

As far Merc, Cum or Yanmar coping what goes on in the smaller private section - it happens everyday.

I agree with: "at least as long as companies are clear which they are selling and boaters are clear which they are buying". I think that level of honesty is not there, remember the Merlins??? They never made the advertised Hp, never touched inside the engine at all and were a huge stain on the performance diesel market. Their advertising instilled hope that was unfounded.

I think when you read the website for that Duramaxx Diesel it is mis-leading, it talks about what other people say about diesels in general and offers nothing about it's own product. The website has a picture of an engine that has never been run being installed in a boat - the cross over pipe has no discoloring along with other signs it has never been run. To me it looks like a mock-up with some hyped HP claims posted on the bottom of the site.

Where is this Tommy Bahama boat with those engines, where is anyone running these engines, are they racing, give me proof of existance.

The first time I met Craig Barrie at Cigarette I wanted him to ride in a little 24 with a diesel - I think he pissed his pants laughing and kindly said "no" but had interest and years later we almost had a deal. That same trip we did test rides all around Fla at Chris Craft, Wellcraft, some fish boat companies etc. People knew we had a product that at least ran and did what we said it would. At first not very good, but things got better, but I could give you 10 boat companies that were in it for rides in that one week!

The problem with the interent is it gives validity to things that don't exist simply but putting a website out there with hype. Look at what goes on OSO, the Duramaxx is a legend with people on here (not this thread but others) who defend something they have never seen or touched.

Your remark about 2 stoke diesel - why not use them? That could be a world beater!!!
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Old 04-06-2008, 04:35 PM
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All kidding/bantering aside, one of the reasons I took the OSEC job was to get back into this business again. I came on here a couple years ago and lurked half hearted, the thought of performance world again was just too painful, many heart aches, lots of money lost, many years wasted when I should have focused on the truck business more.

I had alot of people behind us and we didn't get done what we thought the market could bear. OSEC's CEO, over 40 years with Cummins, Cummins distributor for 21 years, largest in the country at one time. Another, the man who would steer Cummins into the marine business again after the 903, 555 & 504.

Anyway, they own my PE pattens through another company DEUSA that I had a part of. Once we start making a little money from all my "Green" ventures the board is ready to test some marine projects starting with the old PE gear boxes. I think a simple solution like that can put the diesels in the lime light again. My gut is still telling me the biggest problems people like Jass have with diesels is they are not applied properly.

Give me 12 months and I'll be taking you all for rides in a practical diesel go-fast - amen!

Joe Gere
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Old 04-06-2008, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Njawb View Post
To split the discussion off onto another track, Joe, what do you think of the idea of marinizing a two-stroke, aviation-oriented diesel engine?
You should look into what Cuyuna is doing for the Navy too
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Old 04-06-2008, 05:09 PM
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Never mind beating the world, I'd just like to see this boat running on diesel without decreased performance. If the Diesel Performance Research 800 hp DuraMax were a viable substitute for the Eickert 800 hp BBC, that would be very cool. If not, I'll keep hoping and expecting that lightweight, high-performance diesels will eventually get to that point.
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Old 04-06-2008, 05:09 PM
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Reminiscing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by HabanaJoe View Post
remember the Merlins???
Merlins? I love em!!! My nickname for em is "Steady Money" they need more overhaul work than any other engine I know

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Cummins into the marine business again after the 903, 555 & 504.
Joe Gere
shhh! I still have customers running those and they are happy
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