Splashing is wrong. I don't like it because I think it is theft.

Medicine Man, there was a review of a Saber 41 made from the original Apache 41 molds in Powerboat or Hoat Boat a couple years back. The article said the layup and mold work were awesome as was the paint, though the reviewers were disappointed with some of the rigging. You may be able to do a search and come up with the review. If not, I might be able to locate it (about 50% that I still have it).

puder- i guess im more concerned with current stuff, i mean if skater came out with some ground breaking new hull i think we can all agree it would be wrong to just go out an start ripp'n out copies. as far as producing a boat that has long sense outlived its usefullness by the original manufacturer, i dont really see a problem. as long as it is agreed on by the original builder. of course this is where it gets into the grey area as some of the original builders are no longer around. but i really think the reason for the anti-splash laws are to protect current run stuff.using the term splash is just a matter of symantics (sp?) heck the old excalibers are a good example of what you are talking about, it has probably been reproduced more than any other. an for good reason, its a hell of a boat. in fact its one of my all time favorites.

redstrip- i guess i never really thought about it. at the time, (about a year ago) the hull he had was only about a year or so old. it was a 1999 or 2000 22' baha hull. . . . that was the hammer was'nt it? . . .at any rate i really did not want any part of this project and i also tried to discourage the gentelman from persuing this any further, in fact i think he sold the bare hull on this board in the "boats for sale" section. i dont hold any thing against him for asking me to do this project, at that time he was uninformed about the legal and ethical issues that i explained to him. he made a good choice and sold the hull as is, guess it was a dealer warrenty left over or somthing. hope im not stepp'n on anybody's toes with this little story:cool:

I had heard that the Donzi classic series, the 16 and 18 especially, were some of the most splashed/copied boats. I know that Four Winns built a couple of very similar boats back in the 90's, and when I was looking for one (still looking, of course), I found this company: www.pythonboats.com - their "Vyper" model sure looks an awful lot like the Donzi 18.

Similar boats and workshop boatbuilders are supposed to be a dime a dozen down in Florida (going from memory, this was discussed over at www.donzi.net a while back).

Four Winns had a 17 and 19 that looked a lot like the little Donzis. Apparently they didn't drive like the original. I remember a not-so-good review in Powerboat.
I don't agree with splashing. I think if someone like Sabre buys old molds, OK. They're paying for the right, not just stealing someone's innovation behind their backs.

(MikeStar - If you're interested, my old 16 Donzi is back up for sale at a dealer here in TX. 1997 w/5.7L Merc.)

I've got, I think, a splash or a copy. Or maybe mine is an original and others splashed of my hull. It's a 26' 1979 Mirage. I know back then there was a lot of splashing going on untill the laws were stiffened up a little. Eliminater and Carrera both made a boat identical to mine. I've been told Eliminater had a 26 SS daycruiser that was the same as my boat. I've been looking for a pic of one but have never found one. I've seen an ad for a Carrera that looks the same.
Who copied off of who? I don't know. I think it's wrong to splash, that is simply stealing. Am I going to seel my boat because of it? Only to the highest bidder.;) [IMG]mirage[/IMG]

Glassdave is correct. Many companies sell off their older molds to acquire capital for starting new projects. These molds typically, just a rough average, sell for $25,000 to $75,000 depending on their popularity, size and condition. They aren't just selling the molds, they are granting the sole rights to use this design as well.

When a company sells a mold and the rights to build it, that buyer is now the rightful owner and can do with it as he wishes. It's the only legal way to acquire designs that belong to another company.

But the hull can be splashed for much less than that, and if it is, the original molds obviously depreciate in price, bringing a loss of asset value to the originator. And therefore, his budget for new projects decreases too. That in turn, hurts all boaters. Except for the person who performed the splash, of course.

Purchasing a mold (from the owner of the design) is not considered a splash or copy. But purchasing molds from a splasher is still a splash even if the buyer didn't realize it had been molded illegaly. And under the new law, those splashed molds can be taken away from the buyer even if he paid for them in full, just like with purchasing stolen vehicles.

There is a case of hot-potato going on right now with a set of splashed molds of a wildly popular (and very much in production) 20' modified tunnel hull. These molds are switching hands, much like the journey the cloned-HTM molds went on after HTM caught wind of them.

All I can say is, Caveat Emptor - buyer beware.

BK,

If a purchaser unknowingly acquires a splashed boat, and if that boat can be taken away, then does that purchaser have any recourse? Can he sue the seller to recover money? Also, Cuda made a great point. The point of a patent is to protect something valuable. Marketers in other industries patent and copyright names and product designs and logos to protect the r&d money and advertising dollars they spend to build the brand's value, regardless of the actual value of the product. A copyright on the name is one thing, but a patent on the design requires qualification. And many marketers that apply for patents don't always receive them. You can't just patent something for the sake of it. You need to show that some serious work went into it. I'm not exactly sure of what qualifies as the "work" but it must be earned. I am in favor of protecting the brand name and look. That is, if the look and personality of a manufacturer's boat is being stolen then it is very wrong. And if a splashed bersion of a super duper patented )or pending) stepped hull design is done, that is also wrong. But, to splash a hull, while I personally don't think it is a cool thing to do(and I certainly wouldn't feel respectable riding around in one), it's gotta be valuable to be protectable. No?

rtaylor - Sorry if my message was confusing.

If you bought a boat made from molds that were splashed, and the splasher gets caught - I don't believe the boat will be taken from you. However, any profits the Dealer and Manufacturer made during the sale of that boat, plus any hulls in inventory, might be ordered destroyed or given to the original company. But I dont think the private buyer be affected at all.

What I was talking about was if a person or company purchases splashed 'molds' without the rights to the design. Either to make a boat for himself and pass it on, or go into business or whatever.

A splash is not using another person's idea, it's when a person makes direct copies of the boat -- also known as an impression of this design. Kind of like taking a wad of clay and pressing it onto a quarter -- when you pop it off, you'll see the exact duplicate image of the engraving.

And that's how boats are splashed -- A hull is cleaned and greased up to create a plug. Then molding gel coat sprayed all over and layers of cloth and resin are placed over that. This procedure makes an exact impression of the hull being copied. When that cloth and resin cures, it is "popped-off" of the plug, and instantly becomes a mold ready for production.

About patents: To have a patent, your boat must have a feature that is unique and identifiable. Dimensions of running surfaces and specific angles are not considered unique and you can't normally get a patent for these, even though those tiny changes is what makes the differences in 95% of high performance hulls. These changes also require testing and R&D and sometimes take years to improve to perfection. But the patent office really never was interested in vague R&D and performance numbers, the patent office wants a visual appearance that is unique to the industry.

According to what I read, the new law does not cover items that have previously been patented. But it will allow builders to register their boat designs under copyright protection. In the registration, the designer must include items to prove this is their own design: This includes blue prints, drawings, photos of the plug-building, photos of running surfaces with dimensions, photos of finished product etc.

Another item I noticed when reading the new law: It is a Federal offense to register a design that you knew was not your own, and there are stiff Federal penalties for this fraud.

Once a boat is registered, it becomes copyrighted. If a company splashes that product and they get taken to court, it is now a Federal offense with big penaties up to $50,000 + any profits made. If the copying company never applied for a registration, they're going to have a very tough time defending themselves. In the past, taking someone to court was sometimes not even worth the legal expense - But the new law suggests the judge may issue recovery of legal fees too! This will certainly help to encourage legal action to get the splashing to come to an end.

I think this new law is really going to clean up the copy-cat scenario. Good designers are going to become much more in demand, and competition will be on the level again. I think we'll see more really cool, innovative stuff start showing up because of it.

Sorry if I got carried away writing here about this new law, but what can I say - I am excited :D

Im with puder.................

I visited the fountain factory last year and bought one because of it.............one intresting thing about it .............

the molds are not that whiz-bang even though you can tell they have had modifications done to them based on racing etc. and probably arent really protected that well....... but i can tell you from EXPERIENCE...............

the " lamination schedule" which includes what kind of glass - bi-axial - tri etc, weight of glass, aapplication direction .piece size, resin type, resin mix, internal part placement .....detail ad nauseum ........... IS PROTECTED LIKE FORT KNOX............

.they wont even talk about it.............

so in my mind buying a splash is just that.....................a splash

a copy of the design.........NOT the real thing

anyway.............here in Texas we kill em for doin that crap......



EZ :D :D :D

You may be right, but the worst thing about this whole shady business of splashing, is that for a couple hundred bucks, all of that can be had as well.

Ply sequence and material tables can be quickly determined by simple destructive testing of small sections in varying locations of the hull/transom and any one of a whole miriad of labs can tell you what chemicals, resins, gels and concentrations(even the brands) were used for just a few hundred dollars. :( :( :mad: :mad:

This is a great topic. I know this will start a war...but. For some of us green horns it would be nice to know who some of these manufacturerers are. I know naming names will just start a fight. So maybe names should be left out. What everyone elses opinions on naming some well know spashers?

Brian

yea . . great topic BK . . .an i dont think really this will start a war. heck its been 4 pages on this so far an we all seem to be in agreement for the most part, splashing is wrong.another thing Caincando1 right now the industry is still kinda in the grey area as some manufacturers have been producing a splashed boat for many years, sence like the 70's and 80's, when the laws were very different. again the 24 excaliber is a great example of that.it is still being produced by several different manufacturers, although i dont know if they are splashed or legal copies . it may be some time before the new laws show there full effetion . i guess the best advice is to stick with companys that have a long standing reputation for quality and design.

i was also approached once to pull some molds from an aftermarket engine cover for merc 2.5 outboards (think it was a lightning or something) i declined that project also. i just dont have it in me to splash someone else's work.i know what it takes to produce somthing like that.

Saber 41
 

Med.Man.... There's a couple Sabers in the Galleries section photos that run up here on Lake Erie.

J.M.

I certainly won't name the company's names, but some of these individuals/companies are actually admitting what they've done, that they have/have made molds of splashed hulls, and oddly, two companies are claiming to be very proud of splashing and say they will continue because they can't get punished. And even a few people giving them praises. I couldn't believe it and that's why I came here -- to see what you guys, the Offshore segment, thought about this.

Several of those threads have already been deleted because you can imagine the anger this creates.

But you can still see one of these threads at:

http://forums.screamandfly.com/showt...threadid=10333

It is titled: "I will sell these molds.. yes the one that build a STV-like boat"

When you visit, you'll see the names of two other boat building companies joined this thread to encourage buying splashed boats. It is found on the registered General forums on Screamandfly.com

That's cause it's all done with a chopper gun! :eek: :eek:

hehe, j/k :D Reg and crew build a good boat.

BTW, this thread is 4 pages long and no one has either taken a swipe at the beak boats or turned it into a flame war. Thought I was at a different website for while, like OSO about 6 months ago... :)

I understand that a large Canadian Boat Company's peformance hull originated from a splashed Velocity hull.

Padraig

baja daze,

man i hate to hear that.......................

they should killed as well......................

ha !

ez :D

mike,

chopper gun................got me on that one.............
i did ask that question at the fact. visit (by mistake i can assure you

wow that pissed them OFF !!!

I was informed that fountain does not own even one of them..........go figure huh..

sorry for the change of subject but..Whats the other board everyone is mentioning? Thanks

The origional 33 Fountain boat was splashed off a 31' Chris Craft and yes they do ustize chopper guns...it is a full blown production built boat, simular to a Baja.

Other thread....
 

Hi Pantera -

The other thread is on www.screamandfly.com, in General Discussions.

Mike Star
I took a little shot at fountain a few pages back..






"No one has splashed the beak. Maybe reggie is on to something?


__________________
And stop calling me Shirley




puder

wouldn't that be kind of like splashing an AMC gremlin????

(j/k)..... "




:D

as to name names.


Lightning powerboats in FLA i hear are big splashers. terejw as thread (here on OSO) a while ago where the owner was saying he was about to start on a 24 skater.

The exterior surface of a boat hull is only one of many facets that make up the design of a boat. Others would be lamination schedule/design, materials, location of center of gravity, location of center of pressure, mass, etc.

It is theoretically possible to splash a hull, and make a boat better than the original. Splashing just saves the cost/time of building a plug. Most people who splash a hull are out to make a quick profit, rather than to develop a better product.

Manufacturers would like you to believe they used some kind of rocket science to create their designs. Chances are they did not, most boat designs are evolutions of previous boat designs. Fountain is an evolution of a Velocity, which is an evolution of a Cigarette which is an evolution of of Bertram which is an evolution of a Chris Craft. (You get my point.)

If you want to know who uses real engineering in boat design look at sailboats.

Don't flame me for saying this, I like fast boats with loud engines.

Vtec, well said

In a way some sort of splashing has accounted for the evolution of boats. Unfortunatly splashing by new companies to sell boats and not make them better is the problem. If someone splashed beek boat. Then tested it and modified it to make it better. Then sell it. It would be looked at as a part of the industry evolving. Maybe?:confused:

Brian

VTEC:

I agree with much, but not all, of your post. Specifically I disagree with your sailboat "engineering" point. Most sailboat development is staggeringly derivative as designers piggy back on each other. Their primary claim to fame seems to be in spending absurd amounts of money to achieve fractions of a mile per hour. From a structural standpoint their knowledge of true impact is minimal. Some years ago, a major America's cup level sail boat constructer produced a powered cat.... it fell apart immediately, and needed extensive rework in order to produce a mediocre racing resume..... The constructer had no clue of what was required and no frame of reference.

FYI..... In 1976 an award for best use of aerospace plastics technology did in fact go to a boat.......... George Linder's Challenger.

There was also a photo of another outstanding example of non aerospace usage of NASA technology on display at Cape Canaveral for a while...... The Jesse James 48' Conquest. We were very proud of this and somehow did it without any help from Denis Connor.

T2x

PS. A Velocity is not a derivative of a Cigarette. In fact it is a progeny of an Allison. Steve Stepp was one of the most successful Allison Craft Racers in history

endless

been to both factories (baja and fountain ) and owned both kinds of boats........................

chopper gun at fountain= bull****
chopper gun at baja = truth

fountain prod boat = bull****
baja prod boat = truth



ez

T2x:

“Some years ago, a major America's cup level sail boat constructer produced a powered cat.... it fell apart immediately, and needed extensive rework in order to produce a mediocre racing resume..... The constructer had no clue of what was required and no frame of reference.”

Was this one of Copeland’s boats, made by Goetz?

“PS. A Velocity is not a derivative of a Cigarette. In fact it is a progeny of an Allison. Steve Stepp was one of the most successful Allison Craft Racers in history”

A Cigarette with a pad keel? Maybe.

Vtec

PS. Some of those guys on speedvision had no clue. You did.

Vtec.... Good Goetz....er guess;)

I still hold firm on the Allison vs Cigarette comparison...The Velocity is more of an Allison than a Cigarette.

Thanks for the kind comments, but, according to APBA, the new guy is better................
I'm the first to admit I'm obsolete. Apparently obsolesence means having no NASCAR experience( obviously the most important basis for providing offshore powerboat "tech" and color commentary).
I am practicing my "y'alls" and "ol boys" in preparation for my return as Daryl Waltrip's alter ego in a future life. In actuality I have been forcing myself to listen to the running commentative drivel on Winston Cup recently. "That kid's got somethin' goin' there....heck yeah he does! Shoot reminds me of the way ol' Duke useta drive"..................... Man, that's great broadcasting .....Isn't it?

T2x

T2x,

I've been away from these boards for awhile and have been trying to piece together the posts with names of those I remember from the past.....& I think I've figured out who you are!

You are Darren's dad!


Am I right? :D

It feels great to be back.

And I've really enjoyed the posts here. They've been very informative. Thanks, guys!


BK

Right on BK....... Darren's much more famous..... and nicer than I am.

He's also MY hero.

T2x

Endlesssummer,

You just showed your lack of knowledge, I have been to both Baja and Fountain. You do not know what you are talking about. Fountain showed me the actual mold they were using, where they were laying up, notified me at all stages/rigging of my boat being built and did custom exterior. The day I picked it up, Reggie himself did the prop testing on it in Little Washington, if its a production boat every boat made it a production boat;)

WILL;)

Further on the Fountain thing - I toured the plant too, and I don't remember any chopper guns. They told me everything is hand-laid and I'll be danged if I can find any chopped strand in my Fever. Also, the first Fountains were derived from Excalibers that Reggie was working with. Where'd Chris Craft get into the mix?

Jana First off There is Chopped Strand Mat in your Fountain Right behind the Gelcoat, And before the First Structural Laminate Don’t be fooled by the terms Like Hand –Laid or all by Hand (the Worst of the lot Reason Simple Hand batching Allows for drift in the curing mechanism) or Mechanized hand lay-up IE: Chopper Gun (Depends on the Operator and not Seen in High Performance) Or Pressure fed roller (the preferred method), In the Shop we call these Layers of Mat the Skin-Out ,The front Office and Engineering call this Check Mat,By the way It is made by chopper guns on a conveyer belt and a Binder is added and the material is rolled in a neat ready to use package

In closing there is nothing used in a fountain that is not in every Boat shop on Earth

Best Regards

Damm near forgot what the post was about ! A few years back at the Miami Beach Show We counted 26 Variants of the Old 23' Formula A boat that had a Terrible ride to begin with,And it was Propagated so many times,By so many People God Help Us.LOL

Best Regards

When does Darwin's Law take effect??

Thank you BK........ I feel like I've died and gone to fibreglass boat heaven. Finally, the rotten mildewed affects of thousands of pop craft are seeing the revealing light of day. Steve clearly detailed it with his Formula example. If the naive boat consumer only knew the chain of theivery that led to so many of today's boats, we might create a ground swell of indignation sufficient to blow the "Crap mongers" out of the business. This has sickened me from the first time I got a look at a still well known, Ohio performance boat builder's splash of a 16' Glastron in the 1960's........ or, the Sidewinder, a then popular California boat builder's simultaneous splash of that same Glastron hull. This goes back a long way for me.

The fact that we were also "popped" as well some years later, only served to fan the flames. The real victims here, as I said, are the consumers who honestly believe they have (and paid good money for) something "Special", when , in fact, all they have is "Old wine in new bottles"....... bottles that are not as good as the originals.

Most of the OSO members know who the offenders are, but many don't want to admit it. Good taste prohibits listing the offending builders, but suffice it to say they are the vast majority. Unfortunately, the list of actual original designs and plugs....is much shorter.

I don't know why I keep hammering on this subject other than continuing this thread might open a few more eyes and defeat a few more lies.

Caveat Emptor

T2x

Great reply, T2x.

I knew that splashing was becoming more and more common, but I never felt the industry would become so numb, that builders would eventually be bragging that they are in business as splashers. Splashing popular current boat models - taking someone's design and calling it yours. I mean seriously, how can you brag about that? Isn't that theft?

I've known some great builders and designers over the years, and have friends who collect boat company brochures and posters that are 20-30 years old. There are some, but not many brochures featuring truly "innovative" designs in recent years. It will be great when those days come back and designs can be identified to the artist who actually designed it.

This splashing mess should have been addressed by legislation long ago, before it ever got this far out of control. But I'm just happy to see there is a new law - I guess it's better late than never.

Such a sour puss
 

BK, are you still upset that the quality and price you wanted for a boat would not stand up in the market?

You talk so much **** about all this work you have done, these great designs that were stolen as a cause for you sitting home complaining about people making an honest living.

Wrong Barney. Our boats were (And still are) extremely high in quality. At one point we had 5 splashing companies trying to sell exact splashes of our product, and 3 never made it past the first year. And one even apologized years later for what he had done.

I just wish we would have had a law back then that could have ended the thefts altogether. But we had to continue on with business, fair or not. And we still did well, despite the obstacles we had.

Barney - I know you are fairly new to the boating world - and I know you feel Liberator is the best company in the world. I also know you feel splashing is just fun and games. But I've been around people who design boats all my life -- and they put total heart and soul into a design -- to splash and take what they've created is like tearing at their heart with a dull knife. Brutal.

When we sold the company, we did just fine. We had three offers within 6 months - those years of honest hard work built a fine name that we could be proud of. Thankfully, the company was sold to a man who was an honest person too -- who purchased the company design rights -- molds too.

He could have splashed us easily, but he didn't. He did the right thing. Very upstanding man in these times, and I wish him all the best.

Fairly new to the boating world...OK BK
 

Fairly new and still in the marine business BK, not just talking down somebody else's product.

BK's critics have been silenced on other boards and I have very little respect for her attempts to harm peoples business by talking down thier products.

Too Old, this LITTLE POLITICAL BATTLE HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR WELL OVER A YEAR.

Sorry bout those caps....

And no BK, this is not about any particular company, it's about principle.

Boating manufacturers have been sharing desins and hull molds since the beginning of the industry.

Design innovations or ideas are something that can NOT be unlearned. So if somebody wants to change a design or inprove the quality of their boat, so be it.

If a builder has a design that has been on the market and it is legal to make a copy, perhaps improve some charateristics, if it is legal, I feel there is nothing wrong with it.

I'm sick and tired of BK and others in the marine indusrty attempting to keep the consumer mis-informed about quality of construction by using some bull**** like saying the original is better quality than the copy.

It is simply not true.

Barney -

For your information, I have never mentioned ANY splasher company by name. When I post about splashing those names sometimes start appearing, in subsequent messages by others.

I merely talk about the act of splashing a design and what most people think about it -- no real changes, but a direct splash -- where you can't even tell the copy from an original - also known as theft of design.

If you automatically equate this act to any particular company, it's not because I've ID'd them.

And yes ~ I am not in this business anymore, but will always be rooting for the companies who actually are in business to design boats the lawful way. If they do use a plug of another, the only respect they'll get is if they add thier own design and change it so much you will never be able to tell where it came from. The end product better look much different than the original.

I'll always be happy to watch the success of those honest businessmen who have the know-how and skill, and are brave enough to risk offering new designs to the boating world.