thanks anyway BK, i have been enjoying this thread an i just thought i'de put it out there an see if you had ever seen one like it. :cool: :cool:

I have no respect for Lightening Powereboats now. Perhaps they need to get their facts straight onthe cunstruction of the boats they copied, maybe next time when you see a REAL Mirage you'll notice

Originals
 

How do you know?

Quality of construction...... how do you really know?

Ryan Beckley made some comments about the quality of a Liberator that he never saw, commented about a lack of bulkheads when he never investigated.

Many of you are just plain talking about stuff you have no knowledge of......

Opinions without credentials.

Might as well take Real Estate advice from the homeless.

Every business does it to some degree, EVERY business copies procedure or success to some degree.

Or perhaps all ther rocket sceintist are re-inventing the wheel daily, of course that is somebody elses idea too.

Barney
 

Barney,
Be acerful who you say has no idea of that they are talking about. You wold be so amazed at the number of people DO have knowlage of boat construction. Good point on having the opinion whithout the investigation, but here's the problem. Its not hard to open your eyes and see the shabby fiberglass work below the decks and under the seats. I've seen some very good lookcing boats, strudy and all, but then when I took a look at the inside, I noticed bare matting, larg areas of reisn that ran in the mold, poor seat fasteners, soft transoms. Perhaps this was just a bad one, maybe one of few, but what about someone who doesn't know anything about boat building...and the bottom comes apart on their ride? can they not tell its poor construction?

ModVP, I totally agree
 

I have a glass and gelcoat shop here in Lake Havasu, I see many boats and levels of workmanship.

My only point is that if your going to go to the trouble of voicing a negative opinion, some credentials should be in order.

Too ofen people are giving opinions on stuff based solely a feeling or guess, that's just not fair. So with those negative opinions I simply wanted to add,

How do you know?

I do not wish to let those that that do not know influence opinions, I would perfer advice and input from those that do.

EXAMPLE, puder should not be giving spelling lessons! :D

Barney
 

Barney,
Yes, you are very right about the workmanship of boats. however, this thread isn't dedicated to the workmanship of boats.
Its dedicated to splahsing designs, now who makes a better quality splash. I have a big problem with someone taking a design that isn't theris to begin with and making it cheaper and lower quality just to make a buck. Its not right. Like I said before If the laws were the same for cars, would it be ok for me to copy the Corvette and put my name on it? or a different set a wheels and name? What about Harley Davidson? Can I copy their bike and put my name on it and it be "inocent and making an honest living?
I'd rahter come to the boatshow or to the lake with something thats never been seen before with my name on it, than a splash that has with my name on it.

That's great!
 

I wanna be 6 10', 22 years old and play in the NBA but that's not what this thread is about.

There are no totally original designs in exsistance, if you dis agree, name ONE!

BTW, what do you do for a living and what car do you drive?

Do you ever eat? Do you think every recipe is an original?

Somebody came up with the idea of a cat or V hull, every variation then becomes a partile copy if it includes either of those features.

Harleys
 

There are quite a few Harley Copys,Titan,Big Dog and others like Jessie James that make one off copies.:cool:

Too Old
 

Theft - implies taking something that does not belong to you and it is ILLEGAL

I agree that theft is wrong.

What eludes you is that this is not theft, if you think that is what I'm talking about, perhaps you should clarify what it is I am saying instead of just running on when you have mis-interpeted what I've said.

I am NOT talking ABOUT A DIRECT COPY THEN CHANGE THE NAME.

There are also many levels to the whole splashing issue, you choose to throw the baby out with the bath water because your simply unwilling to recieve new information, perhaps a drawback from being TOO OLD.

Your simply interested in conflict, black and white, right and wrong.

That is not the way the real world is, BTW it is roundish. :D

We are also talking about the idea of using an exsisting design or idea, one that BELONGS LEGALLY to the public domain, using it in part or in whole to produce something DIFFERENT.

Still splashing but I do not feel wrong.

ok ok
 

Ok, the Harley thing was a bad example, my appologies.

Yes, somewhere along the line, someoe came up with one idea and others expanded on it. Just because someone took a V hull and made it unique in one way, doesn't mean they "Copied" it. Alfter all, look at the tunnel designs, Cats, true sraigth tunnels, ModVp's, modified cats. The true pioneers made them unique in their own way. As for a totally orignal design, how about Allison drag boats? Do I really need to say much more?

Bye the way, I work on maintenance, I workon boats of many kinds, I work on trailers of all sorts, I work on cars and trucks, I'm also a full time college student. I drive a GMC truck, ya know, America's first truck company.:D

Recipies are one thing, there are many varliations to them, so are tunnel hulls, and v hulls. But not every recipy has the exact same everything to it, kinda like not ever tunnel boat is exactly the same. Ya know, not like stealing someone's mold and using it to produce boats under another name.

Barney ~

No one can tell the difference from a photo of Mirage River Racer 18'3" and a Liberator River Racer 18'3". On your website you even use the same model names Mirage uses. The graphics are even copied!

Not even the original designers can tell there are any "differences". A two dollar bondo line here and there maybe?

Even on the water, they appear identical. I know exactly who's Mirage boat was used for the River Racer copy. We've been told the story several times.

The Mirage River Racer is one of the best selling boats in the under 20' market, and because of this success, it is being splashed by several companies to make easy money with no design outlay.

Mind telling us what is different about these designs?

PS The Mirage boat design is NOT in public domain.
It is *NOT* legal to splash it. I have no idea where you got that idea.

Hey Barney:

Perhaps we will have a "Splashfest" next year, in your honor. That will be a chance for all the "pop" artists to admit who they are, and explain in an open forum how and why they consider it all right to rip off original designs. (I've tried this one on one with a guy who ripped me off and he got bewideringly tongue tied, but maybe your guys will have better luck)

Perhaps we can invite the builders and designers they plagiarized so that these splashers can explain to them in front of an audience, how the original concepts have been "advanced" by the process. We can also invite lawyers who will be more than willing to establish if any public "admissions" could be treated as de facto proof of basis for theft of intellectual property.

Finally you can come as the ultimate arbiter of "quality" and explain , carefully to the rest of us numbskulls what a truly well crafted boat is. I know when I want to learn about how much "big water" an offshore boat can take , my first thought of a testing ground........ is Havasu , Arizona.

I suggest that maybe April 1st, 2003 would be an appropriate target date (April Fools day). I wonder if we could hold it at the P.T. Barnum museum. Wasn't it he that said "There's a sucker born every minute"?

I appreciate your fervor in this, but maybe it's time to step back and recognize you're the one backing the lame horse in this race.

By the way, I'm not only old, I'm obsolete too.

T2x

BK, I only know versions of that story, many.
 

Before I ever negotiated anything with Liberator, I open dialog with and Brad to discuss that very issue.

You cut off that dialog, you could have resolved it but chose not to.

I can't speak for what I'm not sure about, I do not know the details about that deal.

I was not involved with that deal.

An ex-employee from Mirage went to work with Liberator, from his mouth, he had complete permission.

That does not make it true but I have heard so many versions I will reserve judgement.

You've been to MY site? ;)

I put those pics up just for you! :D
I'm sure you knew that though! ;)

TX2
 

Perhaps we could call it DICKfest, then it could be an event where you actually excell!




You have much to learn grasshopper.



Perhaps there could be an outside chance that you have proven this beyond any reasonable doubt on the minute you were born.

Perhaps some of your ideas may be also.

Let's keep this at an adult level......in honor of my advanced age.

Answer the point...do you really think that the builders would come out and admit their role as plagiarizers? Of course not.
You seem very agitated by this and overly defensive. Would it be so hard for you to have loyalty to legitimate builders? The practice of "popping" has cost a lot of people the loss of time and effort..... as well as the creation of a lot of junk. This is not "modern" and goes back to illicit copies of artwork dating back centuries.

You have come on this board with an obvious agenda to belittle BK. You have no clue who any of the members on this panel are. I am a simple clerk in the northeast, and have no real experience, but some other people on here have great backgrounds. Call me what you like........ but, the facts remain the facts.

T2x

Give me a break! Why on earth would you "dialog" (two emails) to me, to discuss YOUR doing business with Liberator?? We aren't affiliated with that company at all. Why would we care what you do? It sounded like you were trying to get Brad to come design a boat for you or something.

Actually, I never had a clue what you were trying to say, your emails were full of garbled sentences of total vaugeness. I just thought you were drunk so I quit reading them.

Are you seriously saying that a $9 per hour ex-company employee tells Liberator that he can feel free to "use the Mirage design because it's public domain" ?? Is that what happened there? And Liberator took his word for it and started building copies? Liberator never called Mirage to check it out, and just accepted that man's word as fact. That's absolutely laughable.


PS T2X -- didn't you notice the special message to this thread from Havasu Barney that informed the readers that "BK was a woman" therefore my opinion does not hold water? There is something about me being a woman and knowing about boats that has him really torqued off.

Hereafter I shall refer to myself as "T2x....The simple clerk"..... it seems almost Dickens like.

T2x...... The "Bob Cratchett" of OSO

BK....you're a woman??????? My God! All these years I thought that "Boat Kitten" was a name used by a guy who had a thing for small catamarans. Well I'll be.......are there other women on here? Does that mean I have to get dressed before I post?.... Can you see me???????? Oh Lordy! I've got to call my shrink!

Fortunately, I am secure enough in my masculinity to get through this.........., but Wow! I can see where a more insecure person...........might....oh forget it.....it's just too horrible to describe.

T2x....The simple, humble, old, obsolete, clerk.

I currently know of 7 companies building pure, original designs right now. Two plugs we've actually been directly involved with, and one other we are consulting with. People are not afraid to expose unique ideas anymore - because they'll be protected.

This new Anti-Splash law is creating a flurry of originality everywhere. Very exciting time in the boating world.

However, companies who rely on other people do develop designs they can then splash are probably feeling very defensive right about now. New designs are being registered with the Feds every day. If they can't figure out how to build a real plug using honest designs, they certainly don't have much of a future.

Oh yes, I torqued off
 

Does that make you a torque wench? :)

Perhaps that's just my drinking again.... ;)

Is it also the fact that you are a woman that makes you an expert in regard to GARBLING?

Perhaps all your little back room dealings are catching up with you and Brad. ;) Liberator had permission, otherwise why would they still be able to build boats?

If it were not for the poor quality boat Mirage produces with thier chopper gun, Liberator would have not built that boat.

Once again Clerkster, you choose to make a wrongful interpetation and just run with it but that's your right a a cleck.
:)

T2x ~
:)
I have a feeling your are pulling my leg (figuratively, of course).



Me~N~Mr. Bill

Hi Barney:

A quick subject change. I'm curious about the "Dark Side" label and the "Resistance is Futile" references on your posts.

Perhaps you could enlighten us about this neat stuff..... I for one am fascinated by Witchcraft, horror movies and Science fiction..... and I can't get enough of Ozzie Osborne either.

And all the kids here on the East Coast love your TV shows. Is the purple suit hot? I've been thinking that I might get a part time job wearing one at the local mall......... That way I could afford more Marilyn Manson CD's.

T2x..... The simple clerk

"Stubborness is Futility"

That would be really great Clerkster
 

I have greatly missed our workout program. :p

BK:

Neat picture......... Tell him I said hi....... Very rarely do you get to say you met (and raced against) the best there ever was.....or will be..... Mr Seebold is at the top of boat racing's universe.

As far as the other picture....Barney that's definitely your best side.

T2x ....The simple clerk

Thanks Clerky
 

I was showing you my good side.

Now I would also be happy to teach you about the hazards of NOS.

T2X Here is a bit of Paradox: Popped (I prefer the word Stolen) Hulls sold to the Law enforcement People Like Cops in Stolen Boats...Pirated copies

Best Regards

Well that picture explains A LOT!!!!!!!! Say no more, we all understand this whole thread much better now.

Does this habit make you accelerate faster.......or just give you more top end?

T2x........ the simple clerk


"Futility is Futile"

Hey Steve:

I was just corresponding with my new pal Barney, thanks for joining us. The ultimate paradox still has to be Don Aronow building the world's slowest cat for the DEA to catch the "bad guys" in boats that he also built and sold.....that were faster than the cat........,

Yes, I remember it well....... before I became a clerk.

T2x..... The simple clerk

"Resistance is a measureable phenomena"

Are you trying to say that this $9 per hour laborer with 2 kids driving a 1982 El Dorado actually did a back-room deal to PURCHASE the rights to the Mirage Company designs?
That's funny stuff, Barney. :D

Actually, the poor guy was totally broke and had a toddler and a baby to feed....so as a favor he was PAID to destroy trashed molds in the junk pile. Was he honest and did he finish the job he was paid to do?

Nope. Because sometime between 1997 and 1999 those Mirage molds (that were supposed to be destroyed back in 1997) showed up at Liberators shop. And guess who now works there! It's not hard to figure that one out.

I would imagine he's already formed an alibi though. Smart ones always do.

If the amount of energy being directed to this thread was applied to the advancement of boat design and technology, we'd all be running around in 43' boats that run 120 mph with a pair of Force 85's.

What's morally "wrong" does not necessarily relate to what is legally "wrong" or "good business". Bottom line? If you can sleep at night - more power to you, just don't j%&* me off by bragging about what you've "accomplished".

Best contribution on this thread so far goes to T2x for his comment on Darren: "He is MY hero." Now, THERE is a worthwhile sentiment.

Oh my BK, seems like you may have given him far too much time to complete that little run to the dump.

The infamous 2 year dump run, you could chalk up a bunch of hours like that! Was that shop time scheduled by the Clerk? :D

At $9 an hour X 40 hours per week X 104 weeks, thats $37,440

Hmmm, that clears it up for me. ;) You sure he didn't own the molds for that price?

Something wrong with that story.........

Next time, when you want molds destroyed....... CHAINSAW about $50, should only take about an hour @ $9.

$60 Then there's no mystery. :)

LOL T2X You are right that Cat was a Monstrosity of biblical proportions, I found myself on one Years back in Bahrain the original inboards were removed and they had 4 Yamaha 250s installed on a Pantograph Bracket .Mr. Dean Pink and Myself had the unenviable job of making it all work. Problem being it belonged to the brother of the King.

Best Regards

sigh
 

Barney Banrey Barney, Man you really must have been hitting that NOS way too much. Say is that anew purple skin your wearing? I mean the name Barney and all came from somewhere right? And nothing is original right? Barney from a kids show, stolen molds from Mirage, Eliminator, Skater man how far does the list go? who's next, Bayliner or Mercury. Hell I bet theres a Liberator PWC on its way huh? Oh well, when you get someone who's in that kind of financial shape, I'll guess they'll do anything for money...thankfully I don't know anyone like that. Unfortunatly, Brad and BK tried to do something nice and well...nice people finish last. But thats ok, right? Hey I'm getting pretty good with GelCoat, I got a big garage, hmm..maybe i'll go get a Liberator plug and build a boat!

Hey Barn,

I dont really care what you do, or what it is exactly you sell, or how you get it, or even what method you use to sell what your selling.

It's hot in here, and I had a feeling you'd do what you could to try to tarnish our image, even if it meant lying and making up stuff. Certainly is keeping us away from the thread topic, right?

I once wondered why the new owner of Mirage isn't going after those molds that he thought had been destroyed, but then I figured he probably isn't going to be too concerned with companies that pick up stuff from other company's trash piles.

As a matter of fact, he's got a major plug project going on, and he's way too preoccupied with what he'll be offering in the future; better to put full effort there, than to waste it on worrying about designs of the past.

So keep on trucking on, Barney. And good luck. Seriously. And may you keep "finding" designs that are cool before the US Copyright Vessel Hull Protection Act catches up with you.

Read what I wrote!
 

Barney
I love ANY boat as much as the next OSO Junkie on here. I stated FACTS from a Liberator dealer told me trying to get me to buy a boat. He said the they moved the cockpit 18" foward, the boat was faster, and it had a "SMALL" cabin/lay down area. I OWN A REAL 24 SKATER. As I rigged my boat last year it is hard to forget having to slide over the 2 full size bulkheads in the bow area of a REAL SKATER with the dash18" further back than a Liberator. What I am saying is that if the tunnel is padded big enough for two people to get on to as I was told by a Liberator Rep. ther cant be any bulkheads in this boat? You are correct I have never seen one in person but seen several different photos. Not that I am the brightest boater in the world because I barrel rolled my boat at 90 with very minor damage to the hull how would the boat have held up with no bulheads in the bow area? I don't understand how people can think that splashing is right much less than to say that there splashines are soooo much better?????

can't we all just get along.....................

This thread just reinforces the idea even more for the boat buyer," Do your homework before you make a purchase!!!" Ask for professional help if needed. If you want many opinions, post it on OffshoreOnly! ;)

boat building,
 

I have seen and worked on alot of boats.Eliminators are considered to be one of the highest quality boats money can buy and they don't have bulkheads like a Skater although they do have enough lay up they can have a cuddy area.Seen Fountain's with the bottom delaminating,work on several that have already been factory repaired.When you build light boats for race /pleasure you can expect fatigue because you will see it eventually or you will be a heavy/rough water boat.I hope Mirage gets the new plug done because the designs of the past are kicking their ass, in SuperSport anyway.How about that old STV of Carvers setting the outboard drag mark at 136+mph.The quality of a boat comes from the builder of the boat and the material used.
This site has many members that can buy whatever they want so they will buy the Name first,All you guys with Motion's,Spectre's
and all the other partial knockoffs you are outcast's in the BK world and you should be ashamed. s**t

I removed a good portion of this post because I'm just not going to allow myself to get involved in this petty BS.

We've met dozens, if not hundreds, of people who own splashes and they've never been considered outcasts in our book. Why would anyone blame the customers? Most are good people who just got the wool pulled over their eyes.

So, can we please stop with the fake rumors and character assault stuff, and get back to discussing this subject now?

This thread is about splashing: The companies that take designs that belong to others and call them their own, and what percentage of the members of OSO think it is ethical or not.

Here is a 24'-4" Concord