.

BK, you afraid of the petty stuff
 

The truth is VERY few customers are ever gonna know whether part of their boat was a splash or not.

I guess we could all demand to see a plug first, is that what your after BK?

If not, what is your point BK, just taking a survey?

Oh yes, I'm certain that's all you've ever done with this same damn thread you have re-hashed so many times it is no longer welcome on your home board.

Hail to the Scream Team exiled cheerleader. :rolleyes:

I don't take things that belong to other people. Never have. Neither do the pals I hang around with. On the "other board" it was a control situation -- anyone who said they felt this way were bullied viciously by the dirty dozen until they were afraid to speak anymore -- much like what you are doing now.

That's why I quit posting there.

I came here to find out how the un-harrassed people felt about splashing. Where a survey could be unspoiled and true. No personal attaacks, no name callling and no pointing fingers.

On OSO, people are free to give their opinions here without the thread being deleted again and again, like what happened with the others.

The first 50 posts gave the group an unfettered example of how the true boating community feels about splashing. The majority thinks it is wrong.

And they aren't afraid to say so.

BK,
 

You didn't have to delete the part of the post about the fire.I merely commented about the coincidence of it.But when it comes down to it you are on a board where most can buy what they want and they will buy a name first.That is fine for them and it's easier to be critical than objective.There were tunnel boats long before Mirage,STV and others so who is stealing from who?You say that the people that buy a boat that a splashed boat buy an inferior product and the buyers are getting the wool pulled over their eyes.That is your opinion and is a lie.Henry Ford built a car,does that mean that there shouldn't be any cars other than a Ford?If a 24 Skater is so important to Pete why doesn't he still make them and if he won't what is wrong with someone else improving or changing the layout a little and building it.
The quality will sell itself,there are alot of boats that are a chip off of another block like the Chris-Cat class of boats and the Mod VP's and Hydros and Apache.Tempest.Your point is well taken but it your point your makin,there are pops of Mirage that rule the Original,they are better built and are winning races.Isn't that what bugs you the most?

Too Old
 

Sorry,I heard that an inquiry that led me to believe that they didn't have time to build the little boats,we'll use the 21 as an example then.;)

thanks cord . . i forgot your boat was also a concord. well your right mines nuth'n like that one. mine is a 1977 though and it is a 23.5 actually, and it is titled as a concord. :confused: im still reasearch'n it . . oh well no matter . . it still gets me out on the water :D . . hey what ever happend to that guy that scabed that thing back together an try'd to sell it( that is the one isnt it ?). . . just curious. . .

Libility?
 

I can,t be sure but I think that was done already but they wouldn't sell them.The 21 is a touchy boat to operate and an inexperienced people let them get away from them.They have developed a kind of bad rep.I haven't drove one but I rode in one a friend owned and it will hook hard if you oversteer.John at Lightning Powerboats added a strake to each sponson and tamed the shrew so to speak.So much that he popped it to sell.

yoink!!!!!

Jasper Johns Stole My Hull Design!

:D

Sorry, nothing to add. Just need to post on this thread so I can find it again in a month.

HB,

I would love to know how you can react to someone who says "Would love to hear your comments from the Offshore boating world" so negatively.

It would be easy to just let a jerkwater comment like that ride, but when it is about a consumate professional like Val who is so knowegeable and does so much for the collective boating world as she does, i really wonder.

I thought the question was super and i learned a lot even though i have seen it discussed before. The more points of view, the more i get educated and appreciate different opinions. If you don't, that is your problem.

Ted

Ted
 

If that were the case but I do not believe it to be, I would not have reacted so negatively.
She feels completely justified to say ANYTHING she pleases regardless of it's impact on others lives.

I have sat quietly previously when she has directed her comentary directly at LEGAL businesses. She has a VERY personal agenda here, perhaps you are just not fully aware of it.

Re-read the initial post, it is intended to stir NEGATIVE comments, far from an unbias poll of the Offshore boating world.

BTW, it's a good thing to wonder. :)

Just a quick tally.......... I love tallies.

Those who oppose splashing, popping, cloning, stealing, and/or plagiarizing.............................37 by name.

Those who support splashing, popping, cloning, stealing, and/or plagiarizing................................ 2 by name (both of whom derive some form of income therein)

Undecided/confused............ 2 by name.

There seems to be a strong conclusion, much stronger than most other polls on OSO.

My faith in the human race is restored. Can this thread please stop now?

T2x

"Redundance, Chauvinism, bullying, and defending the indefensible is futile"

Hmmmm
 

You stole part of my line.....!?!?

You mocking me son? ;) :)

Not if it prolongs this thread.........................Son


T2x



"Futility is apparently not self limiting"

Give me a BREAK!
 

BARNEY!
You have done everything BUT sit quietly. And of all people, you have more than fulfilled "saying anything you please". Do you not think that splashing someone's design does not impact others? You can't possibly be that naive.
I hardly believe that this subject only applies to the offshore boating world Barney, really.

SIGH Barney, oh dear Barney, you have the resin spelled wrong on your website:D
BTW, he didn't steal part of your line...he just splashed it-that's completely honest and ethical right?:D

Wow, how about those Poll results

"Resistance is futile." (TM - Havasu Barney)

...but apparently "Futility is irresistable" as well...

(Due credit given to T2x for the basic design of the above phrase.)

By the way - make sure you count me in the "opposed" group.

Help stamp out and eradicate extranious superfluous redundancy! :D

You don't have to get dressed before you post, but please don't ever say something that can cause such a frightening visual to jump into my brain! I've been shaking with fear for damn near 5 minutes now! :eek:

?
 

???

Hey Mod-VP 22
 

Stoker came out with their 22 in '87 or '88. The boat had a bad porpoise in the beginning. Then about 6 years later Mirage came out with a 22' pointy nose porpoise machine. Stoker stretched their 20 ft mod-VP hull. How did Mirage come up with their pointy nose mod-vp after producing a completely different style hull for years? Is it a Stoker pop...I don't think so but it's pretty damn close and was chasing the same market. I suppose that is fair. I would argue that protractors and tape measures can accomplish the same thing as pops. Open your eyes folks stealing from 3 or 4 designs is just as bad as popping one.
David

You are so ignorant, Liquid fly.

The pointy-nose Mirage was actually designed by Stolarz who then sold the mold to Howard over a decade ago. It is nothing like a Stoker. Howard moved on to bigger boats and put the molds up for sale. We PURCHASED the mold and made our own changes.

This is how legitimate REAL boat companies improve on ideas.

Yes = We COULD have gone the road of theives and copied the boat for a lot less money than buying the mold outright, but that would go against our ethics.

As for a "Porpoise Machine" ? The truth is, that hull is still hot -- less than 6 months ago a legitimate boat company just purchased the molds for very handsome price. You've probably never even laid eyes on one so I know your comments are just to raise my ire. But to bring up up to date, you may want to read some of the past performance tests in both Hot Boat and Powerboat. The boat was/is sweet.

It's obvious that you're just making totally bogus remarks to try another character assault against our family, but I think the people in here are too smart to fall for that. Especially our good friend Alan Stoker.

PS:

"Real boat companies undergo performance tests"

As it turns out
 

I spoke with Liberator yesterday, back in 93-94 Mr. Collins brought a Stoker by Dave's shop in order to help with the process of DESIGNING Mirage's brand new 22. hehe

Mr. Collins was unable to afford assistance and took his Stoker down the road to greener pastures, I presume. ;)

Also, I come to find out there is still an ongoing battle between Lee's and the Collins' regarding some of the finer points of those "original Mirage designs", hmmmmm I wonder if the truth will ever be known...... ahhh the futility! (I would like to credit C_Spray for the partial use of his line :))

Did you say ALL Mirage's were original Collins designs BK?

Or is it possible they were pirated from an employee who was never compensated?

This is a very educational thread!

David,
The 22 foot Mirage Trinity was derived from a hull mold the former owners of Mirage purchased from Howard Boats. This Mold was was then re-tooled by the owner of Mirage. Then, the owner of Mirage built his own deck molds for the Trinity from scratch. You may want to get your facts right, because if you've ever seen the bottom of a 22 Trinity and a 22 Stoker, you'd notice a large difference. On top of that, the Trinity is a deeper hull, and a bit longer, almost 23 feet, measuring at 22'10". Interestingly enough, Alan Stoker (owner and designer of Stoker) and Brad Collins (former owner and designer of the Mirage Trinity) are good friends. So why would someone splash his friends' hull design and still be on good terms.
Then again, you don't have to believe me, you could alwyas give Alan a ring at John's Cutsom Marine, (714)827-7920, or at www.stokerboats.com
:D

MODVP22
 

Brad, you and BK should coordinate better. :D :D

You two are mis-matching.:D :D

Barney -

If indeed Liberator said these things, which I seriously do not believe they did, they are outright lies. There has never, ever been a Stoker boat in our possession.

As far as us going for outside help with designing a new boat, Liberator is last on our list. But there is a plug builder nearby with amazing skills, but I'm sure you've never heard of him. Because he only builds originals.

The poll must really have you upset, Barney. It's driving you and Liquid Fly into a frenzied state of defensive fabrication. Wish you could fabricate a boat as well as you fabricate stories.

This was expected - it is what you always resort to when your pants are being pulled down.

Now BK
 

If I would have allowed you to pull MY pants down, you would be addressing me, yes sir, no sir. :D :D

But I am glad we are beginning to talk about skills we DO posses! ;) ;)

I'm aware of your fantasies, Barney.
Ive seen the X-rated "BK" cartoons on your site :eek:

See you in your dreams, Barn. :D:eek:

Your right BK
 

Let's quit the BS right here, right now!

I'll meet you in Denver in 2 days! (That's about halfway right?)

or if you perfer,
The weather's getting pretty nice here in your old stomping grounds!

Now how come you never stopped by during your last visit?

My shop is less than a mile from Dave Kobers house.....

;) :)

I heard Powerplay in Holland, MI started their business by splashing the Chris Craft Scorpion. I have to laugh because I was working on a '86 Scorpion yesterday and we pulled the entire floor out to remove the dry rot. I hope Powerplay (now Powerquest) didn't splash the inside of the boat cause they too would be destined for failure.

Not Exactly My Point
 

You guys are funny. BK these aren't attacks at your family as people they are about drawing lines on what is ethical in business. What led Mirage to a 22 footer....perhaps the success of a 22 ft mod-VP hull. Is splashing ideas ok? Now only one company built a 22 foot mod-VP hull not knowing how it would sell. Well as it turns out it did. So after the water was safe Mirage invested in their 22 footer without any marketing risk; they knew their was a market for the boat. I suppose that is ok right? Mod22 Stoker makes two 22's...take a look at both.
David

Oh Yeah
 

Wow a hull deck from scratch. Man that is absolutely amazing.....that should take about a week.
David

Oh by the way the 31 or 32 Active Thunder or Thunder as they were earlier was taken from a Chris Craft also which was a copy of the Excalibur. So the Active Thunders are Splash Hulls?:p

Barney
 

Barney,
congratulations! Your dumb! I'm not Brad. Are you not smart enough to look and see that I'm from Massillon, Ohio, which is no where near where BK is from DUH

Must be that Havasu heat getting to you

"Your" Dumb??
 

I think you mean you're dumb. Don't take these disputes personally. Your Mirage and most Mirage's are very nice and very fast boats. This is about origins and finding truth. It may get ugly at times but it is all for truth. Barn did mean Brad not you as far as getting stories straight. BK has made statements about all Mirage boats being Collin's originals. Well now we find out there is a Howard amongst them. We all know that Howard built a ton of tunnels...oh wait their new 26 or 27 was supposidly their first!! Man I'm confused. I wish someone in the know would tell the truth. David

pointless?
 

Liqui-Fly,
Funny, I don't remember saying the creation of a deck was amazing? Now who is putting wrods into whos' mouth, and spreading rumors?
What is your point? I have yet to see anythin g valid in your babblings. Just because someone else brings out a boat that's 22 feet long and another company has one..they are splashing ideas? Are you listening to yourself? The only thing that the 22' Stoker and the 22"Trinity share are that they are both Mod VP style boats. The stoker is barely 22 feet, here as the Mirage is almost 23'. They have differnt pads, strakes, lifts, and steps. Obviously you have NO clue what your talking about, nor have ever seen these two boats. Like I said before, ask Alan Stoker, a good friend of Brad Collins (designer of the Trinity). Obviously your not that smart to go right to the man who built them, huh?

Get your facts straight

Jr. Stop Speaking For Someone Else
 

Yet another puppet.
David

Quote From Hotboat
 

February 1997

"Affirmation of that development follows just a few minutes behind the wheel of Howard Custom Boats’ sleek new 26-footer, the first production family air-trapper in the company’s storied, 39-year production history."

Please explain this to me. You see I know nothing.
David

?
 

Nope, last time I check I wasn't dumb, I do have a college education and a minor is Business Law

"We PURCHASED the mold and made our own changes." -BK

Funny, ya know I've known how to read since iwas in first grade, I do believe my eyes don't decieve me and that says the molds were purchased and CHANGED! Why would that disign have been desired by the company who recently purchased it?

I have the first ever built 22 Trinity sitting here in the garage, and the fastest Stoker Sport Tunnel with 900Horse power down the street, they are so different a child could notice. But like I said before, you won't research and find out from the builders huh?

Wasn't Calling You Dumb
 

I was correcting your grammer. I figured if you were going to call Barney dumb then you should say "you're dumb" not "your dumb". Come on keep up here.
David