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Old 12-11-2009, 06:38 AM
  #51
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Habana Joe keeps hitting the nail on the head!
When will we have a moderate cost, moderate weight, 600-800HP marine performance diesel and drive package - "When pigs Fly"!

Why do performance boaters get so intrigued with sometimes "over the top stuff"! Its because sometimes they are a little bored, locked down with winter weather and just generally want to split hairs and banter (bench race)over stuff in general. Its not unhealthy or unlikely , but it is generally worthless to the marine performance hobby and market.
What we should probably be discussing is how to save this sport and industry!
There are a lot of smart, knowlegeable, innovative and concerned individuals just here on this forum!
People , we need to spend more time end effort on these forums helping ourselves with some of the following:
1. Work to keep Big Government, bureacrats, politicians and Nimbys from legislating this sport and industry out of existence! You think they are not trying, inform and educate yourself and you will see they are working much harder at it than we are working to stop them!!
2. Lets work to promote better ethics in our industry and run the flakes and crooks out of this industry and sport that help tarnish its reputation. This goes for individuals too, who sell crap and junk to their fellow performance boaters
with the almost crimminal idea that what buyer don't know or find out right away won't hurt them!
Good people and individuals love sports and sports pastimes where your word is your bond!
3. Lets all do what we can to support the people, organizations and companies who support and promote this sport and industry, and stop blasting companies and individuals who try hard and are sometimes not successful!
4. We have to stop some of this "pie in the sky" and the "shouda, coulda, wouda" and concentrate more on preserving this sport, cause guys its slipping away and disapearing right before your eyes and when its gone a lot of you will cry like babies about how great it used to be!!
I hate to sound like a doomsday'r or preacher, but I gotta keep beat'in the drum until some more people wake up on this and other forums and get this sport and industry back healthy and growing again!
I hate to work alone!

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

I remember at one time you were tuting your horn on a Raylar diesel project of your own for a good 6 months. We all dream at some time or another.

as to the rest of your statements I agree 100%
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Old 12-11-2009, 10:50 AM
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I remember at one time you were tuting your horn on a Raylar diesel project of your own for a good 6 months. We all dream at some time or another.

as to the rest of your statements I agree 100%
Dreaming is the mother of all progress. If you never stopped and asked what if then nothing would ever move forward. All innovation came form some guy saying hey maybe we can try this, or maybe this would be a better way. In most cases it takes forever to actually do it. That's whats great about boards like this, a guy with the idea might not be the guy with the means so here the guy with the means may get the idea from the guy without.

Keep up the dreaming and never stop asking what if.

MP
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Old 12-11-2009, 11:19 AM
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With all this never gonna happen, all I can think about is.....bet one day a few years back there were a lot of people saying..diesel..they will never be good for hotrod 8000lbs pickup trucks..they won't ever be as fast as the gassers..only thing they will be good for is the big truck or tractors.
I sure hope one day there will be a competitive diesel in the 850 hp range for boats..
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Old 12-11-2009, 12:36 PM
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ZBO - this whole rant is not directed at you, you just pushed a button and made me think more.

It is not that, there are not competitive 850 hp diesels today (define competitive) and there is a list of 20 people that can build you one offs, they do it everyday for racing trucks and tractors.

It's that, for all the reasons people want diesels that they can not get them with little companies and hot rodded product. Why wouldn't some of the people on here that can afford it march down to the people that build 2,000 hp 466 cui tractor pull engines and ask them to build a 800 hp boat engine or 1,500 hp for that matter????

These same people run down to the local hot rod engiine builder and have gas engines built for their boats, you see it all the time on here and most of the boat engine guys on here still build cars engines - so why not do it?

Because they want a diesel that will out last their boat, they want parts and serivce anywhere world wide, have higher resale and they want it to sip fuel - that is not possible with little engine builders. If I have to settle stick with the gas product it's cheaper and if I don't like the builder i can take it somewhere else, that won't happen with racing diesels.

Again, read my old posts, there have been 100 mph plus diesel race boats since the early mid 80's no secret on how to do it, and they had old style fix turbos and mechanical fuel pumps, hand machined helixes and they ran, ran pretty well actually.

What keeps going on here is the same old hashing of trying to make a diesel something it is not rather than take a look around at what works with gas engines and propulsion systems and adapt the diesel to them.

Really, it boils down to the wow factor, you look at an engine with chrome and the wow factor gets you excited and everyone drools over it.

You buy it, it breaks in 15 hours and you sit at the dock but look cool with the fancy engine and love to tell stories how it broke and how much it costs to fix - after all isn't that what the Don Aronow image is all about, run it hard and out it away broken if need be, he was the Marlboro man of the ocean, larger than life!

Buzzi comes along with ugly engines, oil dripping from them, smelly diesel fuel in the bilge, black smoke out the back and kicks ass - he's not cool (that hair was a mess!), he's someone we need to top, not beat, not out think, not build better engines against his, no we change the rules so he can't win, so he can't beat the shiny chrome engines (embellished story but has merritt to it)

So why don't they change the rules again to let diesels compete, maybe the gas engines guys are too scared or is it that when you make so much power from a diesel it is nothing but a gas engine that burns a diffferent fuel?

Think about it, why do you really want diesels and when you answer that you'll see Gale Banks can not give that to you no matter how cool his engine looks.

I've stated on here several times had I the money again, I'd be building those diesel boats and trying to kick your ass all over the ocean, oh I forgot you guys race in the river now, well I'd go chase Bob the Builder down then - LOL!!!

ps - one remark as for me I'm not about not dreaming, my books of notes, data and assumptions are vast but at the end of the day it has to be a viable and sustainable business model and it can't be done with little mom and pop shops and Gale Banks although talented is in the grand scheme mom & pop.
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Old 12-11-2009, 09:32 PM
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I spoke with one of the reps today at the PRI show about this engine. The infomation they had on the engine said it was 800 hp. The supercharger feeds the turbos. The rep also told me this was about a 4800 rpm engine. As far as price they were saying around $73k, but who knows for sure since its not in production yet.
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Old 12-11-2009, 11:57 PM
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The diesel Eliminator 43Eagle is powered by marinized 480hp 5.9L Cummins truck engines. I don't know if they are twin turbos but there is now a triple turbo kit for this motor. It makes 710hp on diesel only.

You can find good used common rail Cummins motors for $6000-$9000. The mondo turbo kit comes in @around $9000. So for about $30,000 you can build an 800-900hp diesel that will run all day at 500rpms off WOT and be super reliable. For more speed the Weismann 2, 3, 4 and 6 speed transmissions are available.
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat & Mice View Post
Dreaming is the mother of all progress. If you never stopped and asked what if then nothing would ever move forward. All innovation came form some guy saying hey maybe we can try this, or maybe this would be a better way. In most cases it takes forever to actually do it. That's whats great about boards like this, a guy with the idea might not be the guy with the means so here the guy with the means may get the idea from the guy without.

Keep up the dreaming and never stop asking what if.

MP
Well said!
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Old 12-12-2009, 09:00 AM
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catmando - define run all day, how mnay hours do you think it will run at 500 off, so it's probably at 700 hp - what do you think the life is?

I do agree with everything you've said, you got my point exactly, there is stuff to do it with, people just don't do it and why do you think they don't do it?
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Old 12-12-2009, 11:27 AM
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Supercharged and Turbocharged. Posted this earlier in another "Diesel Thread":

My Round Britain 2008 raceboats performance figures:
36 ft Ocke Mannerfelt-hull
2xVolvoPenta D6-435(3700rpm) and DPR-drives
GR-9 propellers modified w 31" pitch
12000 lbs dry
75 mph with 1100 liters of fuel at 3700 rpm-could use larger propellers
On the 210 nm stage from Inverness to Edinburgh I backed
of once from WOT.
We drove the boat from Sweden to Portsmouth and Round Britain. 2500 nm together.
No problems whatsoever. The engines used 2 liters of oil during the 2500nm.

www.teamvilda.se
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Old 12-12-2009, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabanaJoe View Post
catmando - define run all day, how mnay hours do you think it will run at 500 off, so it's probably at 700 hp - what do you think the life is?

I do agree with everything you've said, you got my point exactly, there is stuff to do it with, people just don't do it and why do you think they don't do it?
The Eagle ran 75mph and that's in a 12,500lb boat with no transmissions and less than 1000hp. Not bad for a big heavy V bottom. 500-1000rpms off WOT would be a good window for sustained cruising.

A small diesel like the 5.9L Cummins can be built for high speed operation.

1. Find an experienced diesel engine builder. They're not hard to find.

2. Pick the best aftermarket parts.

3. Cryo-treat and stress-relief shake all parts.

4. Dyno, dyno, dyno


Why don't more people run diesels? I think they don't know about the high performance capabilities of these motors. Most people think they're heavy, smokey and slow. Not any more they're not.

Of course diesels will never run the speeds of the gas engines simply because they can't make the rpms, but with multispeed transmissions they can get pretty close. I think a 36' MTI with 700hp Cummins diesels, shaft drives and 6 speed transmissions would run over 120 and get twice the fuel mileage of a 700hp gas motor, not to mention much longer times between valve adjustments.
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