63' Bertram Possibly stuffed off SC???
 

An investigation is underway to determine what sank "Absolutely", a Bertram 630 in November. Bertram has developed its line of sportfishermen to a point where they are fast and light, making them more like their high performance "magnum" counterparts than the heavy Hatterases that they have been compared to in the past.

Look at the pics taken of "Absolutely" as she sits on the bottom. Note the fore-deck and the delimitation of the entry just above the waterline at the bow. Brings back memories of "The Heat is On" in Key West.

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/ge...ram-630-a.html

T.

Collision damage? What power was in it?

I read all 50 pages in YF, had to hit something can't imagine a boat that big just falling apart? If you read it the funny part is the transom came off. A few people speculate it may have gotten damage and couldn't run so someone tried to tow it backwards, maybe, again I say maybe to deeper water and insure it was lost for good but the transom came off and down she went in shallow water!

I wouldn't doubt they hit a barge, how would the tug captain even though? He certainly (the tug) wouldn't feel the boat hit the barge??? They said it was early morning when they radioed, could have been dark when the collision took place. the barges scare me a night, hard as hell to see and those tow cables are long!!!!

I remember when KHov's big boat went down off of NJ, we provided generators on the barges for the failed recovery efforts and got to see some of the footage back then. They all settled but for less than insured.

I JUST got done reading all that crap. 1) The manufacturer is crazy for even insinuating that a 250lb. bouy chained and anchored caused that 63' boat to delaminate and sink. 2) I don't think it hit a barge at all. Its a good theor and a boat could sink from that, and the tug operator could be clueless about the impact, but there is no impact damage to the underside of the hull. Infact, there really isn't any impact damage at all.

I think agree with most of the people on there and think that the boat either sustained some damage before it left the dock (it was on blocks for 8 months, allegedly improperly), or the boat simply wasn't built properly. It really looks like water impact shredded the upper portion of the hell and caused major delamination down the sides. The thing sunk in 10 minutes. If 250lb. bouy caused that then the manufacturer should be embarrassed of themselves... Bertram should have came out and said something small, paid off the captain, bought the owner a new boat, and been done with it. They're just digging themselves a bigger hole and causing more problems for the company.

I think it was a barge because when I look at the pictures I see the bow ripped right off above the waterline, the bow sticks out front. I don't see how hitting a barge which is like a brick wall could ever damage the boat bottom???

What could the chances be the boat hit the tow cable mid bow height drove the cable in the and it spun arond the whole boat?

One more thing looks weird it shows the bridge where the steering should be and whole steering wheel and controls seem to be missing? I would think if it stuffed or collided with so much force that the tower is gone, the deck peeled all the way to the salon that the two guys would have been throw around really bad and gotten hurt - after they were just standing on the bridge????

A court order not to touch the boat - wow - time will tell?

walks like a duck, talks like a duck......

I see what you're saying now. Most of the barges I see around these parts (Great Lakes) are probably much smaller than the ocean going types. That said, after the boat hit the alleged barge, I still don't see how the bow doesn't get impacted and destroyed (or take ANY damage whatsoever). Something peeled the deck from the bow, that is indisputable, but how that happened without causing significant damage to the bow of the boat is beyond me. Water is the only thing that I can think of that wouldn't do that (water would dissipate and spread the force causing the big wound with causing any little wounds... i.e. banging up the bow).

I like the cable theory a lot more, but I think the boat would look much more like the fountain that hit the pilon (where the pilon was up to the dash of the boat, split right down the center). I think the 63' would look much more like it was cut with a sawblade (and I think it would have spun the boat causing chain damage to the side of the boat).

Honestly, we'll likely never know. Bertram is DUMB DUMB DUMB for letting this carry on this long. In the Yachting world this thing is a HUGE deal. Some people think that it could bankrupt Bertram, and over what? One 63' boat? Like I said, they should have settled this out of court with a confidentiality agreement, paid off the captain, and built a new boat for the new owner (or gave him a 2009... the "new" boat that was being delivered was 2 yrs. old). That said, they've hurt themselves from dragging this out, but they'll hurt themselves even more if it goes to court. Things will undoubtably be said by the experts on the defense side that will be damning to their reputation. They can't afford the hit. They've had so much negative PR lately that I'm sure its already effecting their sales.

A lot of people were making a big deal about the court order not to touch the boat, but it really isn't a big deal. It is only a granted request by either the owner of the boat, the insurance co., or the defense to preserve the wreck from investigation purposes, nothing more.

great pics for 80 feet untawata. what kind of camera? strobe used?

What do the two "witnesses" report, the men transporting the Bertram. Does anyone know what their statement was about what happened?

ditto

will be interesting to find out what happened when it all comes out in the end

I would concur that it may have hit a barge or the tow cable between a tug and a barge. From the damage, it appears that the front may have been cut in half by a barge tow cable. Pretty easy to hit a tow cable at night or during low visibility.

If it did hit a barge tow cable, the towed barge may have impacted the back from the side and tore the transom off.

Very interesting!!!! I like the tow cable theory. It had to be something super strong to tear that Bertram apart. Not that Ritz cracker bouy.

Ok, here's the latest, I just love this story and still don't see how the captain and mate were not hurt bad. I would have thought a stop like that would have launched them off the bridge!!! Anyway, from Bertram President:


"Dear Bertram Dealers, Employees, and Friends,
As I have stated previously, I am committed to providing you with solid, factual, up-to-date information on the Bertram 630 incident of November 6th.
And, as I have done on my previous five (5) communications to you on this matter, I will not offer idle speculation or unsupported opinions.
At the same time, I believe it is my responsibility to correct misinformation that is presented as fact. Some of the statements below bring into question the motivation of the parties making the statements.

For example:
•The caption accompanying underwater photographs posted on one website claims that the images were taken from a video of the boat shot on November 11, just a few days after the sinking. These photos - depicting dramatic damage to the sunken boat - have been used to cast doubt on the possibility the sinking was caused by a collision and to support a number of negative theories about the quality of Bertram yachts. The FACT is the sunken boat was not even located until two weeks later on November 24 by a crew contracted by the owners. It was found 1.5 miles from the point of its sinking. Between the date of the incident and when the images were captured after November 24 there was a significant tropical storm in the area with very strong winds and violent currents with the strength to toss such a wreck about and move it some distance from where it sank. We cannot know exactly what happened down there during those two and a half weeks, but it is very likely that much of the damage we see was inflicted AFTER the boat sank and had nothing to do with the sinking in the first place.
•Many of the statements made by one local poster to the website are entirely FALSE. We believe this poster is misrepresenting the facts because -- we also believe -- his family owns a Miami-based boat building company. Specifically his assertions concerning the source of the hull coring material and that Bertram subcontracts the lamination of its hulls are entirely FALSE as are numerous other statements he has made as “fact”. His statements must be viewed with great suspicion in light of our belief that he has not disclosed that he is in the Sportfish Yacht manufacturing business and is a minor competitor of Bertram.
•The damage to the yacht depicted in the underwater photographs (taken AFTER 11/24) is totally inconsistent with the detailed description of the sinking boat provided by the captain during an interview after the incident (which occurred 11/6).

As I had stated in my previous update – although there is overwhelming evidence that the boat did strike a buoy marking an artificial reef (through the laboratory match of the bottom paint on this boat and the paint on the buoy) we do not know what brought down this vessel so we will not speculate.

We will continue to carefully gather the facts and provide updates as the facts emerge. Bertram continues to remain totally confident in our product and stands behind all of the boats currently in owners’ hands and those under construction.

As always, if you have any questions on this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me.


Michael W. Myers
President
Bertram Yacht Inc.
(305) 633 - 8011"

I think we are missing the point which is why I posted this on OSO. The newer Bertrams are lighter and rely on sandwich construction techniques to get them that way. If you have seen some recent video of these HP series sportsfishermen one would have to agree that they are starting to resemble our offshore boats in the way that they leap over the water and thrust into incoming waves. It is not only feasible... it is probable that the boat tripped over a set and stuffed into an oncoming wave. At 40 knots, and with 60,000 lbs behind it, that would be enough to shatter the bow and fore-deck right off. Again, watch the "Heat is on" video.

The thrust of the water could have theoretically blown out the transom. One would be surprised to learn how weak and how light the larger transoms are. Keep in mind that these boats are not constructed like our "thrust-transom" boats... with wood and other cores. Most of the larger boats with "non-thrust-transoms" are only 1/4 to a 1/2 inch thick... much less if they are built as a sandwich.

A collision with another vessel would have been reported as such. The 63 would have radioed to the other vessel for help. There is no other party noted. A collision with a container would have caused more damage to points below the waterline. A collision with a tow cable makes sense, but, again, no other party noted. It would have been sited in the official CG report.

T

There is no way that a 63 Bertram would have gone down as a result of impact with that buoy or one like it. I personally have seen a 73 Rybovitch hit a Large Chanel Marker (Nun) and sustain far less damage than this boat has. Also 32 Intrepid collided with a Large Can at 35 mph and finally went down after 2 hours, and sustained damage at the point of impact, but the entire boat didn't delaminate.

IMO the transom came off as a result of the water being forced through the hull, and traveling through the lower lazzarette and bilge area ripping the transom off with the force of the water. This is not an isolated incident with newer Bertrams, just the worst case so far, but I am sure there are more out there.

I have over 6000 hours at the helm of several large Sport Fish Boats, and the 63 Bertram that I ran for a customer shuddered and flexed in a big sea, where as the Vikings that I ran more frequently have a solid feel. There may have been several factors involved, but the construction of the boat and their layup deffinately failed.

If all this really happened from stuffing, can you imagine what that would have felt and sounded like?! The tansum blowing out and all... it would have been like an IED.

Really hoping we get the whole story at some point.

well it doesn't look good to me that bertram wants to say a 250lb buoy brought down a 63 sport fishing boat like that. doesn't matter if the a lot of that damage happened after it sank, it still sank because of a 250lb buoy. That is just stupid to think that.

A Bertram 630 weighs over 90,000 lbs. The boat was also supposed to be traveling around 25 knots, not 40. It is reported in that thread that seas were under 6 ft. I am no expert, but in my opinion a 63 foot sportfish should not be stuffing under those conditions.

Im not buying the buoy theory as a lone cause.

Id say this, plus existing damage,plus a big wave hit - plus manufacturing defects.

Look at how the fibreglass pulls away from the core material indicating they were never fused together to begin with.

Core material should be bonded so thoroughly that it becomes one piece not a sandwich of layer loosely held together.

This is what resin infusion and vacuum bagging are employed in the mafgr process for - to insure the complete bond.



Uncle Dave

I didn't read everything on the other site, but I would think they had radar on and could have seen most anything in front of them.

yes it does and heartbeat the black fountian 33 in 94 if I am right and the power play 33 later in the 90s. but in these three people got killed and hurt, they were lucky in the 63. which I think after 55 pages hit the can that put a small hole in the port side while the can was on top or haft way up a wave and the boat ramed it above the water line and the next two sets of waves caved in thr rest of the hull and deck. if they still make those boats out of polyester resin and coring that sucks. for a 2.5 million dollar boat it should be all glass if using polyester:lolhit:. most high performance boats built with coring are vinlyester or epoxy either hand layed or vacum bagged also a better glass should be used on the 63 kevlar two layers on the outside against the gel and coring. theres was a kevlar 38tg in 96 or 97 on the cape he hit a can 4 times the size of the bert one on the outside of the west end of the canal at night going 40 to 60mph it opened a 1 to 2 ft gap above the water line 7ft long. the glass guy said it was the kevar and it might of had cf in it cause there was a lot of webbing that was black like cf that save the cig he said a all glass boat would have been worst maybe sunk. well thats it for now.

hey fred I read that the new vikings are cord too:eek:.

Look at the separation.

Core material is supposed to BOND as one piece with the glass and resin. This is NOT what this should look like.


Uncle Dave

Look up the wave station reports... 8,9 and 10 feet. "Absolutely" tops out at 42 knots. 90k further makes the argument for stuffing... It's all about momentum.

Thats usually what happens when a core is not bagged or not bagged properly or is dry. Just the surface of the core is bonded with no cross linking or very poor resin penetration. Although from the pics the dark lines do indicate resin presence so its tough to tell. Man this boat really is a mess. What were the seas that day? I didnt get a chance to read all the way through yet.

oops, just saw this. Yea thats a lot of available forces there. Delams only need a small breach to become catastrophic but man this thing is a mess.

There is nothing wrong with a cored boat, if done properly. In fact if done properly the cored laminate is just as strong or stronger, with a serious weight advantage.

The closest buoy I found lists a max wave height throughout the day of Nov, 6 at around 1.7 meters. If my memory is correct the thread at yachtforums also indicates the captain of the boat claims he was traveling at 26 knots.

I used to work for a well known custom sportfishing builder in the Outerbanks years ago.This was back in 95 when we were building hulls fully framed out of 2 by 8 juniper frames on 12 inch centers with 1 inch juniper planking and covered by 1/4 inch 5 layer ply in and out with a layer of 18/o8 on the outer and the inner also.All built with epoxy

These 60 foot hulls weighed in at 50,000 and were running circles aroung the Production guys.Now the production guys are trying to duplicate the speeds with their hitech layups and they aint gettin it right.A lot of the strenght and speed of the hull is built into the shape of the Carolina boats.Deep sharp entrys and heavily flared bows with an almost flat transom area.

The builder i worked with built boats in the winter and ran the chit out of them in the summer at tournaments.They didn't know what a blueprint was but built a hell lof a strong and fast boat by eye.

He told me a story one time that he was running side by side downwind in some big waves at a good clip with a big Hatteras, he was in one of his boats.Next thing they know they look to their side and the boat disappeared. They had stuffed it and peeled the deck off and it drove straight to the bottom, Fortanately the captain and crew were on the bridge and floated off it as it vanished.

It appears that this happened with the with the Bert but if the damage was that bad it seems it would have gone down before a mayday was called. No timeline how long it toook to sink so far.

http://www.paulmanncustomboats.com/

Nice stuff! That 81 is a sweet piece. I can sit an look at build pics for hours :cool:

Quite amazing they are all built by eye huh.Paul showed me a video one time of him jumping 10 foot swells in a 54 he built like he was running around in a 18 foot Donzi.

Hey Dave I have a old Woodenboat that has the full story about the Carolina builders in it from years ago. I think i can buy the PDF online at Woodenboat. I will see if i can send it over i think you would appreciate the story.

Just a could of quick points... Allegedly the seas were 4-6' where the boat sunk on the day in question, and the captain did SAY he was going approximately 24 knots, but there is speculation that he was going much faster. The owner wanted the boat delievered in a hurry, and the captain was trying to meet a dead-line. I know if I was in a hurry, behind schedule, and a disgruntled boat owner breathing down my neck, I would probably not drive a boat that can go 43 knots at a speed of 24...

This is absolutely correct.

Foam Core is Really light, but not as strong as balsa.

Balsa is technically "wood" (although end grain balsa has vastly different soak properties) but if vac bagged/infused will display none of the weaknesses or downsides of "wood".

As has been said before, without vacuum bagging or resin infusion its VERY hard to get the core material to bond properly and you get what you see here.

I looked at the bertram site and they dont specify what layup style they are using, but this looks like they are having a bonding problem.


Dave Sampson

definitely man that would be great. Thanks

I'm with tommymonza's opinion on this..

There was an article in professional boatbuilder about the Carolina Boat Builders.

Turkish boatbuilder Vicem builds in the wood epoxy style, as written about in professional boatbuilder. This link has the text from the article. Unfortunately, the build photos are not included.

http://www.marina42.net/cgi-bin/p/m4...yachts&id=1389