Like Tree0Likes

42' Epoxy OL, your opinion?

Reply
Old 01-18-2010, 10:40 PM
  #51
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bristol, RI
Posts: 7
Default

This thread has been very interesting; however there seems to be some confusion about the importance of the resin system used in relation to stiffness. The resin system does not significantly impact panel stiffness. Stiffness is impacted much more significantly by unsupported panel size, (i.e. internal structure) core thickness, and re-enforcement material. (E-glass, Kevlar, carbon)

This is a long winded way to say, if two boats were built in the same mold with identical laminate schedules and structural layouts it would be impossible to “feel” the difference between epoxy and vinylester resins.

That being said there are significant differences between epoxy and vinylester laminates. Epoxy resin has significantly better physical properties which allow laminates to be more highly engineered and weight can be reduced. Epoxy is also resistant to water absorption and does not micro-crack like vinyester which leads to laminate failure over time. The down side is that epoxy costs 3-4 times the cost of vinylester, it requires a more skilled labor force and more sophisticated tooling and manufacturing systems.

Vinylester laminate is attractive due to its low cost, and ease of use. The laminates are not typically highly engineered, which means that they are not labor intensive. These characteristics make this process ideal for high volume builders.

The “ride” of a boat is dictated by the global structural design and the hull form, not the resin system used. “Flex” is not good in a composite structure, no matter what it’s made with. Hope this helps.

Aaron Crawford
Outerlimits Offshore Powerboats
Outerlimits PB is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2010, 11:15 PM
  #52
Registered
 
OL40SVX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Bristol, RI
My Boats: Outerlimits
Posts: 7,223
Default

Great post Aaron!
OL40SVX is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2010, 11:45 PM
  #53
Registered
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,791
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outerlimits PB View Post
This thread has been very interesting; however there seems to be some confusion about the importance of the resin system used in relation to stiffness. The resin system does not significantly impact panel stiffness. Stiffness is impacted much more significantly by unsupported panel size, (i.e. internal structure) core thickness, and re-enforcement material. (E-glass, Kevlar, carbon)

This is a long winded way to say, if two boats were built in the same mold with identical laminate schedules and structural layouts it would be impossible to “feel” the difference between epoxy and vinylester resins.

That being said there are significant differences between epoxy and vinylester laminates. Epoxy resin has significantly better physical properties which allow laminates to be more highly engineered and weight can be reduced. Epoxy is also resistant to water absorption and does not micro-crack like vinyester which leads to laminate failure over time. The down side is that epoxy costs 3-4 times the cost of vinylester, it requires a more skilled labor force and more sophisticated tooling and manufacturing systems.

Vinylester laminate is attractive due to its low cost, and ease of use. The laminates are not typically highly engineered, which means that they are not labor intensive. These characteristics make this process ideal for high volume builders.

The “ride” of a boat is dictated by the global structural design and the hull form, not the resin system used. “Flex” is not good in a composite structure, no matter what it’s made with. Hope this helps.

Aaron Crawford
Outerlimits Offshore Powerboats


Is there no compromise in any area at all with epoxy?

Animal refers earlier to not "display(ing) any major cosmetic flaw"

Does that imply minor issues, or is the claimed downstream cosmetic "issue" due to post curing a non issue?



Uncle Dave
Uncle Dave is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 12:34 AM
  #54
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Arlington Tx
Posts: 9,373
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fountain40icbm View Post
I've been in them and its not like that at all.
...the penalty is a stiffer ride vs vinylester...Jassman

That's what Teague meant.
Catmando is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 12:46 AM
  #55
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
 
Steve 1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Beautiful Fort Lauderdale www.cheetahcat.com
My Boats: Slippery when wet!
Posts: 10,833
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catmando View Post
...the penalty is a stiffer ride vs vinylester...Jassman

That's what Teague meant.
Could be the lamination input Also where Carbon and S-Glass would be at the very top of the Stiffness Scale and Kevlar the bottom..Resin does not play much of a role here. except the Epoxy is $$$$

Last edited by Steve 1; 01-19-2010 at 12:49 AM.
Steve 1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 08:57 AM
  #56
Geronimo36
Gold Member
Thread Starter
 
Panther's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Elkton, MD
My Boats: 36' Apache Warrior / 22' Apache Scout
Posts: 11,838
Default

Dirty Bird, thanks for the comments. Those real-world kind of experiences are what I'm looking to hear.

More importantly though, I'm looking for someone to coment on the 42' vs. the 46' having owned them currently or in the past... T-1075's and #6's preferrably!

Thanks in advance!
Panther is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 06:13 PM
  #57
Registered
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bristol, RI
Posts: 7
Default

I'm not sure what you mean by no compromise with epoxy? Epoxy chemistry is constantly evolving, like any technology. The resin system we use today has a higher Tg (resistance to print) and better physical properties than the resin we used 3 years ago. The only constant is the price goes up.
Outerlimits PB is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 06:25 PM
  #58
Registered
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,791
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outerlimits PB View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by no compromise with epoxy? Epoxy chemistry is constantly evolving, like any technology. The resin system we use today has a higher Tg (resistance to print) and better physical properties than the resin we used 3 years ago. The only constant is the price goes up.
What I mean by compromise would be any tradeoff that may exist.

Im specifically looking to determine if there is likely to be any kind of cosmetic issue for any reason down the road.

This is really the only downside I have heard.
I have heard it repeatedly from several builders Lee at Schiada being one of them - hence the repost.

Im trying to get expert builder advice about the legitimacy of this concern from other knowing parties.

Respectfully,

Uncle Dave
Uncle Dave is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 06:32 PM
  #59
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
 
animalhouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Warwick, RI
Posts: 985
Default

The risk of long term print through is less likely than micro cracking and spidering of VE.
animalhouse is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2010, 06:45 PM
  #60
Registered
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,791
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by animalhouse View Post
The risk of long term print through is less likely than micro cracking and spidering of VE.
So print through is the potential issue.
Does heat exacerbate this potential? As in an Arizona summer?

We can go back what 15-20 years and look at VE boats.

How far back do epoxy boats go in time?
I dont ask rhetorically, I ask because I do not know.

Thanks for the answers guys.

Uncle Dave

Last edited by Uncle Dave; 01-19-2010 at 06:51 PM.
Uncle Dave is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:09 AM.


Copyright 2011 OffShoreOnly. All rights reserved.