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Banks Sequential Super Turbo Marine diesel engine

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Old 02-10-2010, 06:17 PM
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I just lost a 15 minute rebuttal to your response so I'm pissed at OSO now!

You are fooling yourself if you think all those things will add up to much at all.

Please if anything I say is wrong someone jump in and correct me - this applies to ALL performance diesels and is not aimed at Banks.

To run higher than stock rpms you need stronger valve springs to stop chatter or float - agreed?

The Banks engine will run over 50% above stock rpms 5,800 - agreed?

It will need bigger springs.

The banks engine will run higher boost, much higher than the couple PSI a blown gas engine you see here on OSO runs - agreed?

The higher the boost the more pressure on the backside of the valve which takes away pressure form the springs - agreed?

A N/A engine does not have that they run vacum - agreed?

To compenstate for a lower net spring pressure you need to raise spring pressure again - agreed?

Turbo engines run very high exhaust backpressure between the head and the turbo charger - agreed? (don't insult me with waste gate crap, it's still very high)

The same principle applies to exhuats valves the net less spring pressure needs to be compenstated by stronger springs - agreed?

The diesels we talk about here for boat use for the most part are a "log" style exhaust with little to no runner length between the head and turbo - agreed?

That short length causes the exhaust waves to crash right into adjacent clyinders and help lift exhaust valves off their seats - agreed?

Again higher spring pressure to over come that - agreed?

So, in conclusion these engines will be like my hot rod diesels the race Seateks, the Isottas the Hyperbar 903" etc, etc where we call "replacing a cylinder head is part of normal mainteance". Yea, Buzzi and i came to odds about that after I told him he was smoking crack and that alone would destroy Seatek from being a commerically viable engine!

None of this is against banks, I love the idea, even like the duramax to a point but please do not think if you buy these all your problems are over.

one more thing will probably require the oil to be changed more often than a gas engine!
Again...talk to Gale Banks. He knows his engine far better than I.

But speaking of replacing cylinder heads...there are head studs and O rings/fire rings that diesel race cars and trucks are using now(the Audi and Peugeot cars come to mind). Surely Banks can come up with a solution to the problem...
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Old 02-10-2010, 06:32 PM
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Thoughts on the Audi, great race engine, great car engine!

In a sport where 10% better fuel economy might be one less pit stop it means the world!

In a boat where a 10% saving in fuel based on the what 30 hours a year you put on your boat equates to what in dollars - take it out to 30% fuel savings and run your boat 50 hours a year!

You won't keep the boat long enough to make the $80,000 extra it cost you back and if you were repowering with those things I'm guessing it will cost you close to $175,000 by the time your done. If someone gave you the fuel it still wouldn't work - LOL!

If you read my rants and I'll admit I rant, I never despell there are huge advantages to the diesels BUT when you use milder engines than a 800hp little V-8.

Think about how many of you guys have 572cui gas engines and people think what a diesel making just as much Hp with 30% less cui will last longer why?

The diesel in a long distance race car is a great advantage in durability because of the lower rpms, it's only common sense.

Now look at a race car on a track the only car that makes full Hp pretty much the entire race is a drag car. A Top Fuel car is always making Hp, yes only 4 seconds but compare that to an endurance car and how many % of the time do they make full or near full Hp?

The boat as we all know is always as they say in trucking terms "going up hill".

Buzzi understood and not enough people give him the credit I feel he is due - yes I disagreed with him but funny after all these years he's doing it the Joe Gere way - Fabio you owe me I was right Cummins all the way!

Anyway Buzzi understood the diesel boat is like a big truck, tall gears, later multispeeds, low rpm's and drive it through everything - the same applies today still, don't know why it is hard to understand for most?
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Old 02-10-2010, 06:51 PM
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I'm saying the higher spring pressures, higher than you gas guys run will beat the valves to death and cause problems. You know most valve failures comes from valves that do not seat properly and leak. With high pressures the valves will flutter without compression in the cylinder and that will cause them to beat to piss. Valves are made to open and close not stutter like I do!!!

I think you consider Banks to be engineering powerhouse, why is that? I think they are great assemblers, packagers and modifiers - engineering, real ground up draw it, build and change the way we see an engine work??

Jim Fueling great engineering!
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:42 PM
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I'm saying the higher spring pressures, higher than you gas guys run will beat the valves to death and cause problems. You know most valve failures comes from valves that do not seat properly and leak. With high pressures the valves will flutter without compression in the cylinder and that will cause them to beat to piss. Valves are made to open and close not stutter like I do!!!

I think you consider Banks to be engineering powerhouse, why is that? I think they are great assemblers, packagers and modifiers - engineering, real ground up draw it, build and change the way we see an engine work??

Jim Fueling great engineering!
Ha well Joe I went to stutter class when I was young. Yes she put marbles in my mouth lol.

Banks said the valves and springs would be upgraded from the twin turbo motor. If it was my motor, the first thing I would do is tear it down and have all the parts either cryo treated or stress-relief shaken, hell probly both. That should help with reliability big time.

Engineering powerhouse? Well the guys on the Cummins forums beg to differ. They say the cost/benefit ratio of Banks tuners and chips is skewed the wrong way, to put it mildly. Now having a 2006 Dodge dually, i am interested in his new Banks iQ PC, his intercooler and either the Twin Ram or Big Hoss intake manifold. The rest of what he has I can find cheaper and better other places.
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:44 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o5srCLGCuE

We have been waiting for a long time for this and we are ready.

pat W
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Old 02-10-2010, 11:54 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o5srCLGCuE

We have been waiting for a long time for this and we are ready.

pat W
Sounds bad ass!
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:04 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o5srCLGCuE

We have been waiting for a long time for this and we are ready.

pat W
I knew you would be, I've seen all your vids. Have you talked to Banks about testing?
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:51 AM
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Default Shoulda coulda woulda!!

I would love to see a small v-8 marine diesel performance marine engine do everything this industry needs it to do and YES be affordable, reliable, and available in reasonable numbers with drives and transmissons as needed. Both Gale Banks and the Weismanns are very talanted and innovative. I know they can build these types of engines, transmissions and drives. the problem though is the affordability index, its off the page!!

The problem I see here is that this power option is not going to be here with these requirements. When it is I will be the first one to congratulate those who did it!
In the mean time this is all just bench talk and prototype play!
The larger general performance boating users cannot afford or use this type of power yet, when they can HOORAY! In the mean time all those deep pocket players who can buy a small few, congratulations and KUDOS! for the investment. After you've used it for a season or two, lets us know how its going!

To much cold non boating weather everywhere, you guys have got cold cabin boating fever! You're loos'in your common sense and economic savey!

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:03 AM
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Pat W you have the trans already to work with current diesels, they've proven themselves with the Seateks with the race boats. Why do you think they are not as popular as they could be - I think you have a great concpet, product, track record, etc.

Why do we not hear of boats running around with them more at least for diesels?

Ray, your like me, there are few that can afford anything and they buy it whether it is good or not but to say "I have it you don't". People like you and I went into business to make money at it, not a hobby and understand a building a few special engines for a couple people does not get us where we wanted to be with our companies!
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:17 AM
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Wink You Could Sell Pigs That Fly!!

Joe:

You've hit the nail on the head! Everybody likes and needs to experiment and develop new product and designs, but as you know getting the final animal on the shelf, tried and true with costing and sell pricing that a moderatetly large group of performance boaters can invest in is the ultimate challange!

I just watched Mercury Racings unveiling of their new 1300HP twin tourbocharged Marine racing engine with its new transmission and #8 drive - WOW! its quite an accomplishment and it just points out two things here.

1. Unless you've got millions of dollars of development money like Mercury, a staff of engineers and incredible manufacturing and testing facilities you not even going to make a BUMP at the process!
2. Unless the performance boating boat or engine & drive buyer has got to have deep pockets or their not even going to be able to make the purchase at todays costs!

Raylar as a small business marine performance engine innovater would like nothing else than to develop a new high powered small package diesel marine engine with neccessary transmission and drive, but I am also a realist.
Unless we could start with a readily available diesel engine package ( The Duramax is NOT!) and then mate even an existing drive and transmission to it, set up complete marinization and total engine/drive package engineering, manufacturing, testing and distribution system, several million dollars of investment, it would never see the light of day as a economically viable undertaking!
When one considers what the final product would cost the boater and how many could be sold just to start to recoup investment, one would quickly see that an investment of these type of dollars would earn more in a bank savings account at todays lousy 1/2% to 1% interest rates!

This is why I believe it maybe a few years, if ever, especially not until our US economy seriously improves that you will see anybody in the marine diesel engine business develop and market such a package successfully to the performance boating main stream market! Joe Boater!

Some people will say why can Mercury Racing develop this new 1300HP QCV4 engine and drive package?
Three good reasons:
1. They got the big money, the system, and the capabilities to develop, manufacture and market such a product from start to finish on a clean sheet of paper.
2. Mercury knew they would have to totally control from start to finish manufacture of the product , control its complexities, eliminate availability issues and market the product without relying on a base engine manufacturer like lets say GM or such to provide them with a base engine platform!
3. Mercury Racing can price this package in the statosphere where it will have to be to cover its costs and hope and gamble that the very small racing and extreme performance boat market like Skater, MTI, Outerlimits, ETC. and their very small numbers of buyers and users can give them a return on the investment. This is even taking into account that Mercury (Brunswick) knows that operating Mercury Racing is a bigger marketing tool than it is a profit center and the assistance it gives its other marine engine sales business helps cost justify the investment!

As for Diesels alone, why does everyone think Cat got out of the marine and truck diesel market. With the new emissions and sound requirements, they knew they could not make a profit building diesels for anything but the earthmoving market, so they bailed!

I hate to rain on everybodies hopes, thats not my intent! I am really a positive optomistic businessman, HELL if I wasn't why the Hell would I be doing the things that Raylar does! I am also just a guy who know the numbers and the market and believe me if I thought this type of market was going to be hot, I would borrow, finagle or steal the money it would take to make it happen! I hope and wish someone like Gale Banks could finish and sell this type of product to the general marine performance market, it would be a nice addtion if and when it becomes economically feasible!

I'll get off my soapbox now and go back into my little lab and see what Raylar can whip up for the masses!!

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
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