Cool Video thanks.

OK
Lets compare the last 41 Apache built with the new Pantera.

In poker run format...not full race. Some bling and comfort features.

What HP did it take to make the last of the APACHES run 100-110 ?
What HP will it take to make the PANTERA run the same speed ?

And does the same hull lighter ride worse? good thread.

Another question to Steve.

We have read on here over time how Reggie when doing a speed record attempt would take a particular boat back to his shop and tweak the hull with what appeared as minor adjustments and actually made the boat faster.

Is that something you could do with your expertise with some of the guy's boats that are out there?
With absolutely no disrespect to any of our great boatbuilders are there some boats out there that could have some tweaking done to them to gain 4-5 mph?
Something a production builder would not be interested in doing.

Sort of like buying an already fast Corvette and having one of the Aftermarket Specialists make it even faster.

Question for everyone.

Its June 2010.

What hull shape and length, by what boatbuilder, that we know has been UNCHANGED is out there now in use in the GREATEST NUMBERS ?

Would it be one of the Fountain hulls because of the huge numbers sold over the years ?


What V hull ?
and what CAT hull ?

I would think the old 24/7 Exclibur would by very high on that list. Not sure who was the first to produce it in its original form but Harry Schoel comes to mind as its possible designer. Panteras probably one of the ones whos been doing it the longest and is still around. (just guesses on my end)

Alec the old Apaches had some issues with the bottom geometery example Aronow kept the boat shape ,where the chine at transom was less than at say station 5 or mid ships.

Now that pulled the strakes in at the transom making a horseshoe shape.

What I did was screw a template to the plugs transom and we built the strakes straight and dead Parallel with the Keel (waterflow)

Pepe has a better bottom to start with and both sides of his boat is exactly the same,a old joke.

this could easily go 30 pages and we learn something new every page...

Steve

Go back to post # 42 and give me your thoughts please.

Alec It is common sense nothing supports weight like horizontal surfaces but there is a penalty paid for large pad areas in ride which is the trade off for speed, Reggie did a good job analyzing video and using common sense ,Yes one needs to check the center of gravity and what is happening aft of that point, profile wise, the old timers taught me in Vee design (not step)a third of the hull should be constant running surface, everything stays the same for 33% of the length forward of the transom then converges to the stem.

Once upon a time I was bet on a small boat, the early programs said 48 MPH with a 90 OK!! I got 54 MPH with a 70 out of a boat that was a foot longer and 3 inches wider.

To answer your question absolutely Yes, everything can be worked on from all the the edges and some slight geometry change will push it in the right direction.

V hulls with no changes is tough since there has been some tweaking along the way notch/un-notch transom/pad/no pad changes etc. The 38 T/S TG is relatively unchanged for a a 10-11 year run. The 35/38/42 Fountain is relatively unchanged albeit trim changes like Lightning/Executionere etc. Fountain has built a lot of boats but Formula was pumping out a lot of 353/382 Fastech's also.

Sunsation re-did their 32 in a twin step in 06 but by 08 added a pad so tweaks like that are what I mean for changes.

Thank you

What Cat hull do you think is the most prolific?

Would it be one of the Eliminator hulls ?

Alec ,The Pantera has 525's and is at it's legal weight of 10,600# I have heard 93 mph . The old Apaches with 900's would hit 100+ from the feed back I have got.

The Pantera at 10,000# Poker run Bagged and Cored with everything imaginable onboard and the 900's @ 125 looking at the information I have seen.

The old 23 Formula was the most copied ,at one beach show I counted 18 under different names.

Yes and the Skater 24 you can find it all over the earth under different names.

The Pantera with 700's and 6s would be a long lasting great Poker Run boat then.

that would be a sweet ride

Alec Hands down,wash it change the Oil ,kick the tires and light the fires go have fun,it is a computers Idea of a Apache.

Thanks Steve

Lets say you had the opportunity to start from scratch.
We see the economy, and how the trends have changed in the past few years.

You can build one model of boat ONLY.
You can have ONE mold, ONE ONLY.

Given those parameters, what would you build?

V ? Cat? Length? Power? Drives?

The boat isnt for you, its for commercial customers, so give us your impression of what you would build to get the most volume out of.

Alec I have a 33 foot open CheetahCat ,road Legal designed as a single diesel IO and outboard single or twin, I built a test plug while overseas ,the Kuwaiti's loved the thing called it the flying carpet anyway it is a fuel miser and the numbers then showed @7 miles per gallon single diesel Then and I had two 50 gallon round fuel tanks planned in the sponsons like my other cats.

You said one set of molds, OK Open Fisherman deck and I would KRYPTON infuse the boat and have all the material Kitted, the first piece on top of the box is the first one used, Resins got to be careful here a good Vinylester as nothing wears like a good gelcoat job.

Dave I have Pictures of this old project and a lot of stories


http://i47.tinypic.com/8xsnk0.jpg

I have a question, is there any poker runners running outboard power?
If not why???
I believe a 36' w/ triple mercs 300 XS would be a great fast and maintenance free boat.
Even a 41' w/ that power should run very well.
Just an idea.........
pp.
PS, Steve as you seen, I am not the only one w/ the idea of you offering some type of course on boat building. LOL
Steve 1 = rocket scientist!

Sir thank you for the kind comments, That is a real good Idea for your 36, I was watching some nice video of it last night, also the 41 with the right bracket would fly ,the outboards have a lot to offer.

Steve must have missed it in another thread,so if I may ask why were you building boats in Kuwait?

Sir the Kuwaitis came over and made an offer, they wanted me to work with them building a large boat company there in Kuwait with my Cats as the center piece at first I turned them down with the war just over and the place all shot up .

They bought one of my 36' Cheetahcats and left a one way ticket on my desk. Anyway I wound up using the ticket,The Kuwaiti's treated me very good and like adopted Ole Steve ,we were also Military Contractors there suppling the Coastguard with Boats and I was encouraged to bring my ideas to reality.

Wow

Fantastic thread!

I agree, a trip 300xs 36 should run close to 90MPH!!!. twin 525's run 93+MPH.

Alec I have a 33 foot open CheetahCat ,road Legal designed as a single diesel IO and outboard single or twin, I built a test plug while overseas ,the Kuwaiti's loved the thing called it the flying carpet anyway it is a fuel miser and the numbers then showed @7 miles per gallon single diesel Then and I had two 50 gallon round fuel tanks planned in the sponsons like my other cats.

Hey pal, tell us about this idea.

I didnt think Cats would work with a diesel.

Thank you for your nice comment.

Thank you.

I like the Idea, you gain a lot of boat and the power is easy to work on.

Sir Glad to. What happened after the first race when we drained fuel from the Cat it used @ 40 gallons for the entire race, the little Cheetahcat 8 's used fuel very sparingly OK! I was thinking of a boat I could run to Dubai from Kuwait (we had a division there) with out refueling @ 600 Miles then at the genoa show I was talking to the VM Guy (they were Detroit diesel) and found a nice engine 320 HP and started working with the fuel numbers from their engineer.

I had to make some changes in the boat and Build a running Plug this was different in the format, that I reversed the sponsons the tunnel chine was now the hull side and the deadrise was under and connected to the Tunnel which had geometry borrowed from the 40 Cheetahcat so the Diesel motor could sit low in the center ,Now on the running plug a outboard was there for evaluation .

The Test plug was 15 feet and very stable as I moved the area of maximum displacement to the side of the boat , it ran very well even loaded down with small power, now about this time Oil dropped to $10-$12 a Barrel and they could not hardly give it away Unreal.

Great thread, which transcends performance boats into the broader recreation boat market. Wealth of knowledge here Steve.

"Most" boats today are giving customers what they think they wanted, instead of boat makers building boats they Know they need. Heavier deep vee boats, even like my buddy's old Slickcraft 19 footer rode extremely well back in the 60's or so. But alas, speed, power out of the hole became the norm.

Boaters on large lakes and offshore are all starting to ask about ride and amenities in boats, as they get older, and want no more of the constant pounding. It looks like Pantera is the offshore wave crusher now? I've heard good things about the AT hulls in rough water, but have no experience in them.

The outboards make the wrong noises! :D


Seriously the only issue I could see with the 300 XS's is the smokey two stroke argument and the oil consumption. The four strokes are ideal but the extra weight may slow you down a little.

On the 41, if you guys are tapping the door above 90 with stock 525's, why bother with pushing the virtues of outboards when those 525's can go hundreds of hours with no issues? The 41 I assume would need 4 OB's to be reasonably fast....

A pair of Raylar 525's in a 41 would be a neat experiment!

Sir thank you for your nice comment.

Pantera has a lot going for it ,Pepe is a wealth of Knowledge and Jo was running in High Performance boats with his Dad since he could walk and they have good line of Boats and a nice operation going, Keep an eye on them.

Pat at Active Thunder uses Harry Schoell for his bottoms and among us in the trade has a good reputation,After a test ride the customers were usually sold on the boat.

Ride: Mass and Shape ,you cannot drive a blunt 2X4 in the ground as easy as a sharpened one.

Steve is the old 24/7 Excalibur/P&D/Pantera/Jaws/Superboat/etc a Schoell design? When was it first used and by who?

It was a boat Aronow had Schoell design and build ,Harry built a Mica faced mold and built one for Doc Magoon with outboards it was the start of that 24 which covered the earth (it was 23 originally the 27 Magnum was 29 also built by Mr Schoell)

Why be normal???
Besides that, triple ob's cost less than 525's #6 SSM, less cost of maintnance, no leaking headers, no blown Bravos, great acceleration and yes that high pitched beautifull scream, etc etc.
I personally have a soft spot for outboards, Back in the 70's and 80's I built so many boats both pleasure and race w/ the real smokers, todays o/b's are a different breed!
Just food for thought.........
Later,
pp.