Oh now you tell me!

I believe what your reporting, especially since its all on the same dyno. My only curiousity is boat speeds. 39 Cig's run 86-87 with 525's and 105 with 700's. That's 19 mph faster with (545 vs. 669) 125 hp difference. That's 1 MPH for every 6.6 HP. seems unrealistic. Same basic numbers for 37 Active Thunders.

Now I know the 700 has torque from the blower, but I also think the NXT and most notably the SSM props are way more efficient than bravo props.

Moral of the story, NASCAT wiil hit 143MPH compared to 135 previously with nothing but drive change and better props!!!!!!

Very interesting thread Nascat. I have left 2 prop's and two broken shafts on the bottom of our lake this summer, Imco SC's and 710's in my DCB F29. Idling back on one screw at 8 mph SUCKS especially when it happens 25 miles from home. We are waiting for parts AGAIN, hopefully will have her back on the water before the weekend. When the Indy drive came out I thought it looked great (expensive) but dropping props and shafts every 10 hours is getting costly too. Do you have an estimated total of what this swap is going to cost? Feel free to pm me if you want to keep this quiet.

dkwestern, you have the math right just x2 engines. 13.2 hp per mph.:ernaehrung004:

Oh this is getting fun! And the anticipation.......

Been there done that so I hear you loud & clear. At this time I do not & until the project is complete I won't. In the interim you could contact Bob Mason at Ilmor 734-456-3600 & he may be able to shed some light on the costs associated w/ the project. Labor is obviously a big unknown & I wouldn't suggest just anyone doing it. Just my $.02!

This project is NOT for the faint hearted or "do it yourselfer" unless you are very organized, multi talented & can stomach seeing your perfectly good paint work & rigging spread out like a 1000pc puzzle:poopoo:

Engine relocation affected header clearance which required new scoops. Bilges were touched up while the engines are out.

I believe I mentioned the fact that my application won't accomodate plug ins & is too tight for a driveline.

Skater custom assembled a flange/flange u-joint which is why engine-drive alignment is so critical.

Port drive is on for good & expect the remainder of the transom to be final assembled by mid week.

NASCAT.....Boat looks great....

R-RATED....Tyler on Trottles = need Indy drive.....

Put 2 Ilmor 625's and Indys in that Fountain....that will make your boat Tyler proof....

Thats was one of the factors we look at...the money you put into a XR, IMCO,or Teague to keep it running, the Indy is worth the small investment...its no differant then the 525/#6 package..other then your almost over 1200lbs lighter and save a chunk of money with the 625's/Indy package....

Congrats on the win....boat ran great...

Looks Awesome best of luck!!

For comparison what kind of money does it cost for an Indy, not the crazy high suggested retail but real price? :)

Marginmn,

I don't believe there is any history to answer that question as of yet since mine is the very 1st retrofit. My out of pocket at the moment is limited to parts I procured myself in order to expedite the install. All other Indy Drive sales have been packaged w/ engines the majority of which have gone in new boats to my knowledge.

Keep in mind Skater / Ilmor are allowing me to apply credit for the used equipment that came off since a racer from Austrailia purchased it before we started the project. Neither are in the used equipment sales business my deal just happened to work out that way from a timing standpoint.

At this point I believe Ilmor is only entertaining current Ilmor Gen3 engine owners that wish to upgrade to the new drives. They are pretty methodical w/ their new product releases & very customer loyal.

My suggestion would be to contact Bob Mason or Ian Hawkins directly at Ilmor. Both have been great to work with.

Call Bob Mason....while I was at Ilmor there was a guy that called that just wanted to buy the Indy drive becuase he already had the 710's but XR's on it...

Tks NASCAT,

I have 625's and the bravo's hold up fine under those. I was just curious what they were charging for the Indy drive in case I run across a set of used 710's or 725's priced right in the future.

Now you tell me!! If I knew you were in the market for a pr of 710's I could bought the 725 packages & eliminated half the headaches!:lolhit:

Today's progress
 

Beginning to resemble a boat now! As much as I'd like to take credit for the idea of matching the trim tabs & swim platform to ILMOR's Indy drive color I can't I copied C-Sprays ILMOR/Indy Bat Boat!

I like the boat next to ya!

What brand tabs are those?

To be honest I'm not sure nor do I remember b/c I've asked before myself b/c there are no markings on them.

The drives look awesome back there. I would love a set of 700's but I"m not sure it would be a great idea with the XR's I have. Like I said though, if a set came up for sale priced right I'd probably jump on them before my brain engaged :)

You resemble a boat?? :evilb: :grinser010:

Looking good!

Good taste NEVER goes out of style... :drink:

Stop by Chesapeake Bay on your way back to NC. We can compare rigging notes!!

Funny you mention that, I got a call inviting me to Rock the Bay the end of Aug. I'm going to have to look into that!

Looking Sweet, I'll have to drive up to the lake and watch you test it out!! Good luck and awesome project. Bill

I hope to get the opportunity to sea trial it w/ Skater & Ilmor when I pick it up but if not you are welcome to join me here in NC we can boat into November & often see 60's=70's in Jan too.

Thats weak. We in Michigan boat well into November and often see low 50's as the high........
We actually have these sweet facemask's we wear!!

Hot damn! Looking good- gotta love it when a plan comes together. Helluva cool project- thanks for taking time to document it and share.

NASCAT - We're doing a five-day event with NJPPC on the Chesapeake from August 19-23. Come and do that one; then you'll REALLY see the Bay... :eek:

Looking good. I admire that you're in a position to do this with primarily two tools: a phone and a checkbook! ;)

I wound up using those as well, but also everything in the shop from a hammer to a millling machine and everything in between. Re-rigs are hard work, no matter where you're coming from and where you're going to. At least you'l have a bulletproof drivetrain now!

(I see the Cat In The Hat has crashed another plane. One of these days his luck will run out, and life will get a little easier for you guys at HMS.)

Merc Data
 

Here's my data:

Uncle Dave: “a # 6 takes between 80 & 100 HP to turn”
Data: a dry sump six @ 6,000 rpm input speed consumes 12 hp and a BAM Super Cyborg @ 6,000 rpm consumes 25 hp. That is a total of 37 hp in a shiftable consumer set-up like a 1075SCi. (Even in the old days of the wet-sump Kiekhaefer drive, the total loss through a hydraulic transmission was about 70 hp.)

Uncle Dave: “Ive [sic] seen bravo #'s around 40-55”
Data: a Bravo XR @ 5,200 rpm consumes 25 hp at full lub fill.

Uncle Dave: “NXT is probably at or better than a bravo- maybe not.”
Data: dry sump NXT drive @ 6,000 rpm consumes 11 hp. An NXT transmission consumes 7 hp. That’s a worst case total of 18 hp in a shiftable consumer set-up like a 700SCi.

Uncle Dave’s second hand report: Dustin Whipple has been testing merc 6 & 700's and says they simply dont [sic] meet the HP spec out of the box the last 700 was like 30 HP down in stock form.
Data: The last four 700SCi’s across Merc’s dynos pulled 705, 708, 705 and 717 (ISO Standard 3046) corrected bhp. The last two 600SCi’s pulled 632 and 624 ISO corrected bhp.

On dyno numbers, professional engineers apply correction factors to normalize for temperature and humidity. Also, they "soak" the engine at WOT to get stable operating coolant and oil pressures and temperatures - yielding realistic and repeatable data. Flash "run and grab" data points, like one sees on YouTube, are not professional methods. Merc Racing is ISO certified in all its dyno and production methods.

Uncle Dave, all I asked for was data to substantiate your claims. The loss numbers you stated for the Merc drives were simply not factual. Moreover, they were grossly overstated. That's why I called BS (If not under these circumstances, then when?). I believe the Ilmor Indy could be 10-14 hp loss - that's credible (but I don't have that data) - then add a transmission.

As for the rest of your personal slam, I don't deserve it and I won't dignify it with a further response.

And NASCAT, I hope your project turns out well. Looks good so far!

FF & UD play nice or I'm gonna have to put you in time out!

While the accuracy of the info is indeed important at the end of the day we only know what we've heard or read unless we've actually witnessed it ourselves.

Good info for others regardless of what route they choose to go.

Is that the Rock the Bay event? I just received a personal invite to it last night.

Checkbook what checkbook mine ran for cover & won't come out of hiding for fear I'll clean her out!

If I charge $1/ride I can pay for it in say????:confused:

:offtopic: As for old JR what are the chances one can be in 2 plane crashes as well as be the pilot both times?? I played the lottery figuring I've got to be luckier than him. I loved the way he exits the plane first as opposed to allowing his lady friend out first. Unless maybe she was knocked out. Glad everyone is ok I've been around way too many plane crashes since I joined the sport in 1992.

You dont have the luxury of calling BS on me then posting more opinion.

Post third party sources for your data!

Your stats on the #6 are akin to finding a human vagina on a unicorn- literally impossible. < Dont quote a one off weisman#6 please post your data on the #6 everybody has>

Third party data shows tested shaft HP vs claimed HP< note the spread.> its from 30-60HP 50HP being on higher performance engines.
Your comment on the 25HP full pull isnt backed by any data Ive seen.

Actually dyno testing seems to show about 10% on bravos giving nascat an effective 70HP drop. Or in other words in his application hes picking up 40HP a side. Big stuff, and a wider gap than my claim.

My "second hand report" was a copy from Dustins post.
SAE HP is SAE HP the engine makes it or it doesnt.
Dustins testing vs your opinion= Dustin wins.
Merc doesnt actually dyno every 700 from what I understand - Ilmor dynos every single engine that leaves.

(actually the 700 nxt combo is awesome and I like it a lot, but its stats and specs are what they are)

For that matter do you have any videos of you in a dyno cell?
I do of me- I dont need a lesson from you on how to compute power.

Show us some third party data.

Heres some more to back my claim (and refute yours)

Full throttle marine HAS a propshaft dyno, and has tested 60HP of loss in a 600HP engine.

http://www.fullthrottlemarine.com/49...%20Article.htm

(Ill make it easy so one doesnt have to read the full comprehensive report - but be carefull its "secondhand")
"One last Myth to bust. How much horsepower does a Bravo drive absorb? For those of you that are observant, you’re probably ahead of me. It’s certainly not 25 or 30 HP like many have come to believe. It is a percentage. In this case with a Bravo X drive, right at 10%. I’ve done testing on 600 HP engines and lost 60+ HP to the drive."



You started the personal stuff- not me, dont pull the "I dont deserve it" when you shot first - then again post no actual data.


Uncle Dave

Lets get back to the bad azz skater project.

agreed!


I continue to lust after Nascats Skater.


UD

Pre-Preg carbon nanotubes, parasitic drive losses, whatever else you want to yak about is cool but I'm all for diggin this skater project.

NICE rePOWER !!!

M.......What is your prop selection and what are the speeds do you hope for with this new set up ?

Good question & the answer could go either way. My boat ran 135mph w/ the Bravo's so there's the baseline.

We've estimated the drive / steering / Ext box swap for the Indy drives will result in a +200lb gain & I'm having to spin transmissions & much larger gears. With that said I'm thinking I may only see 130mph.

But Peter says the drives are mounted 1" higher, there's less drive in the water from a drag standpoint, they are drysump & he said cleaver type props are more efficient (lower slip #'s). While I'm spinning a tranny & bigger drive gears I'm no longer spinning a drive line like I was. How much the above offsets / compensates for the additions I first mention I'm not sure but maybe my top speed will remain the same or I'll see 140mph.

I have ZERO #6/SSM experience. I've ridden in boats w/ those drives but never driven one or been involved in any sea trialing prop tests to understand the characteristics of the props & how gains are made by increasing/decreasing diameter, pitch or rake like I have w/ round ear bravo style props.

My understanding is there will be a handling performance gain as the cleaver type props seem to give a more hooked up / better bite feel & that I would agree with having ridden in several #6 boats including a 36 Nortech w/ Merc 850's this past weekend. Anytime we surfaced even the slightest bit when the props re-entered they bit hard & propelled forward.

My previous setup spun the props inward, Peter assures me he's going to put it thru the paces not just reassemble it, check for leaks & tell me to come get it.

I've been telling Skater & ILMOR they ought to contact Matt Trulio / PowerBoat Mag since my boat has been in a Performance test as well as won Offshore Cat of the Year so the baseline info is there for a great before & after upgrade story! Must be my NASCAR business to business marketing opportunity thinking out loud!

I'd love to get some input from other Skater owners that have lots of #6 / cleaver prop experience who understand the principals of those drives & the way the props work to get their opinion as to what they anticipate the outcome of this swap to yield. Guys like Gatorone, Pbam, BLee, Freedom US-1. They all have much larger more powerful Skaters but they understand their boats very well.

Mike - I would think that there would be some good feedback from the 30' Eliminator that's running 725/Indy's. He's somewhere around mid-150's, so that setup can't be too bad!

The NJPPC event is a five-day extravaganza of touring the Bay, fine food and drink, fine boats and great people. Check NJPPC.com for details. Rock the Bay is a more conventional poker run if you only have a day or two.

...or you could do both.

(Does Rick know that you're supporting RP's bottom line by buying from Ilmor?)

I know about the Eliminator but it's only a 28 & has probably close to 100h.p. more than mine (since 725's are closer to 740hp+) and the real question is whether my top speed will increse or decrease in comparison to the bravo set up. That boat was built as an ILMOR / Indy drive boat and rigged to accommodate such not retrofitted.

I'll have to look into those runs, I really don't have 5 days I can take off + travel.

Rick knows but doesn't care. I see Roger all the time on the spotters stand at the track. Of course I let him know what a great job Paul, Ian & company are doing!

I used to work for Roger back in the day, in fact I got my start in racing in 1984 in the IROC series. Small world!