XR Drives
 

Anybody out there keep blowing XR's with the 575 SCI engine? I am on my 6th warranty replacement & this is simply unacceptable! I have been stranded from the Lower Keys to the upper part of Lake Travis in Austin Tx. I will not accept this. Mercury has a problem here & they know it. Also my engines smoke like a diesel & foul plugs like crazy. This is also unacceptable. If any body out there has been experencing the same trouble please email me at [email protected]. Nor-Tech 5000 Triples LUNA SEA

i've seen your boat up on lake travis. when the drives aren't broken, how fast are you running? we all thought the 575's in your boat would be the ticket.

Hey denohew,
Why do boat builders install inadequate sterndrives on VERY HEAVY sportboats and expect them to
run under these conditions? You are correct in saying that the 575 SCI needs some help in the idling dept. Mercury Racing will help you with that situation. But you and Nortech are just plain overextending the limits of the XR Bravo I sterndrive.Pure and simple. I had one customer in your position, his 38 foot sportboat
had XR Bravo I which were on standoff boxes and mounted to high on the transom we fixed his rigging problem and has been happy ever since. A matter of fact we have a 50 foot Nortech in our shop right know, that boat is ungodly huge. It has surface drives on it.

I have the XR's on a 32'A/T that weighs probably about 8500lbs loaded with fuel, crew, etc. I'm running a pair of 540's that make about 630hp @5400rpm. I have 50hours on them without incident.

The boat runs about 75 when every thing is working perfectly which is less than half the time using 30 pitch 4 bladers. These 575's are not the ticket but the biggest headache ever! Don't waist your time. I have retained an attorney to sue Mercury & it cost me $5000 plus $250 an hour plus expenses. I KNOW this will help & it is cheaper than coughing up $10,000 everytime I blow a drive after my warranty expires. I am soooo disappointed !!!! The build quality of the NOR-Tech is excellent but the 575sci w/ xr package is a total joke!!! Sea ya, Luna Sea

Oh man, I will let you know. I am running xr drives behind my 37 Active Thunder. The boat is a step hull weighing about 9500-10000 lbs full of fuel and people and being powered by KE 675's. I have talked to KE and he feels comfortable running his motors in this boat with XR drives. I gotta think that the major difference is the weight of the boat, or at least I hope. I have heard of 38 cigs with 600 plus hp and xr drives getting over 400 hrs on the drives to date. I am praying I do not blow these drives.

Hey Goodfella
When I bought the boat Mercury approved the application & I was the first one to try this package. I got screwed!!!!!! I will do the screwing now. Thanks for the reply. Luna Sea

Dear thunderdan
YOU BETTER PRAY REAL HARD!!!!!!! Thanks for your reply. LUNA SEA

Thunderdan you are 100% right Keith has put his 675 SCI
in a VERY VERY HEAVY 13,000 lb sport boat and had nothing but problems with the XR drives. Denohew just rigged the boat with the wrong engine package is that Mercury Racing's fault? I don't think so.:confused:

My understanding is that Mercury approves all installations. Luna Sea

Lunasea,

good luck. I hope it works out for you. I can not imagine what a nightmare it must be. You buy a boat to enjoy it, and I hope you do soon.

Goodfella,

I know KE has put this combo in a bunch of lighter boats(675 and xr) with great sucess. i hope I am one of those stories as well. Ya know what i mean.:D

Dear Goodfella
You are dead wrong about myself picking the wrong engine package. It is totally Mercury Racings fault. Peace out. Luna Sea

Well, with all due respect I certainly don't believe it's denohew's fault either. He's an innocent consumer who got screwed and is entitled for some restitution. He paid the money in good faith for a new factory product.

denohew, you certainly didn't deserve this kind of grief...especially with a BRAND NEW boat with all STOCK equipment, BUT it sounds like you make a decent buck to afford a boat like that. Unless things are finacially tight for you right now, go buy 3 B-MAX drives and hang them on your boat and go boating for crying out loud. I know $30,000 isn't exactly chump change but if you can afford a NEW 50' Nortec with tripples and REALLY want to go boating, I don't think $30G's is going to sting too bad. I think you have a fair and very valid argument with Merc and perhaps you can recover some of that $$$ from Merc to fund the B-MAX's. I don't know how long the waiting list is for a B-MAX and if you keep waiting it may be too late to purchase any in time for summer. But if you can afford the B-MAX's now then by all means DO IT and GO BOATING man! ;)

DenohewBEAUTIFUL RIDE! #5 Speedmasters hooked up to your 575 SCI would have done the trick. You would have had trouble free performance boating from the first time you launched of your first wave.:D You would have had to spend a little more on drives instead of spending it on attorneys fees.

I am also looking at a new large boat, and am
concerned over the drives. It seems as though
the manufactuers want to have no hassles with
the rigging, so they recommend the Merc. package.

I had to ask direct questions to the manufacutuer to
get the real scoop (after many months). I do not beleive they were trying
to hide anything (all good people), but there is incentive
to get the boat in and out and not have to deal with
special rigging. Initially, I even got pushback with
the BMax idea (no special rigging required). My guess is that
they make more $$ off the Merc package when ordered
as a complete engine and drive set up.

I also understand that the KE 675s are trashing the XR
drives on big boats (40'+).

I am looking at the BMax and the Konrad 540HP for
my application.

Thanks for the posting... your headaches/problems
can help the rest of us learn that the product is
not a good application in these heavier boats.

Hang in there.

Hey Boomer 880
Bmax's are also blowing on Nor-Tech's according to Terry Sobo so I wouldn't waist my ( your ) time. #6's are the only way to go. It will take alot of work but I am going to do the conversion.
Read this it is eye opening:
Dennis,

Here is an excerpt from www.powerboatmag.com.
"FK" is Fred Kiekhafer, who is "Da man" at Mercury
Racing.....

PB: What's the best thing that's happened in
performance boating in the last 10 years?

FK: Electronic fuel injection. It makes these engines
run beautifully and is the stepping stone to the next
10 years' best innovation, which is electronic engine
management.

PB: And the worst thing?

FK: That has got to be the misapplication of the
Bravo One drive. It's designed to handle 300
horsepower, and you get people *****ing because
900 horsepower breaks them. I don't know what is
worse, that misapplication or not being able to steer
people to the proper product.

"Misapplication??" Mercury is the one who lists it in
their catalog! If it's not right, they should be
recommending Speedmasters with everything bigger
than a 5.7. Looks like good ammo for your
class-action suit....

(I also added this to your thread on OffshoreOnly.)

Best regards,

Chuck Sprague

Heavy Heavy Boat
 

Denohew,
Do you know the reason why the B-Max drives are failing on the
Nor Tech's. It is a very HEAVY boat. It has nothing to do with the structual integrity of the drive. Both the B-Max and the Bravo I XR are being pushed to there limits on these applications. You are finally admitting that you need to upgrade to a LARGER DRIVE It has nothing to do with horsepower in your case it is all about weight. Nortech should have sat you down and told you this when you left them a deposit.

Goodfella,

What do you think that the XR drive can handle? At what boat weight and or hp do you think the XR can handle if you feel that the issue is heavy boats???

Thanks for the information on the BMax drives failing in the Nortechs. Any idea of how many failed, which sized Northech, and how much HP?

I had not heard a problem with the BMax drives, and the added
warranty seemed to fit my application. I am looking at 780 hp (twins) in a 40+ foot boat. I would love the #6s, but they really
hit you hard on price. We are working hard to get into the boat, and the #6 would make it unreachable.

I am working with Bruce on the engine builds, and he recommend
the Konrad 540 over the BMax. In speaking with Ken Konrad (great person by the way) he as had great success with high HP and high torqued diesels in front of his drives. I like the Konrads over the #3 or #5, as they are less money, offer a higher HP rating, and use standard props.

I have no issue with the added
transmission needed for the Konrad, but I may have to put the trans. into and extension box in order to make everything fit in the engine compartment. The concern here comes from the builder. The boat already had build-in extension boxes... thus the added length of the box and drive location MAY cause some handleing issues. OY, why can't htis be easier!?!?!?!

I am convinced that the XR is only good up to ~38' and only if you drive it conservatively. Merc. had created a need in the market!!!

By the way, Bruce had been very helpful in the entire planning process. Maybe he could shed some light on the topic!?!

den: are you going triple 6s?
If you are , that's one serious setup, but honestly, if i were you , i'd run triple 800NAs in that boat. It's honestly the blowers that are killing the drives. That's not the only attribute, but having a torque curve that kicks at 3700 really stresses the drives. On bravos blowers arn't the way to go, go naturally aspirated, but if your going to go 6s, the choices are up to you, but i'd stick to NA if you want hastle free or go with triple 850s ;) hydraulic and never have to worry about much except changing the oil. But anywho good luck!

--Roller

Sorry, I must not have been clear. The boat hull has been
designed with an extension "box" already in the mold... this
is part of the hull/transom. This is why the concern over having
too much of a setback.

The application can fit (albeit tightly), without the transmission in the extension box, but it then places the engine 12" forward and makes working on the engine a bit tight. Also, should a blower ever be added, it (pulleys) might now hit or be within an inch of the engine compartment front wall.

I am trying to look at all possiblities and options for both now and down the road, as I want to try and anticipate as many scenarios as possible. This is why the OSO board is such a great resourse!

Thunderdan,
I have sold many many XR Bravo drives. Here is a list of some
that are still running perfect.
32 Skater 500 EFI
37 Active Thunder Factory II Raceboat 500 EFI
33 Awesome Cat 700 Hp
33 Amercian Offshore 700 Hp
38 Nortech 500 EFI
36 Apache 700 Hp
32 Skater 575 SCI
38 Sonic modified 575 SCI intercooled MSD Ignition on boxes
40 Baja triple 500 EFI
33 Powerplay 700 Hp
With anything over the magic Merc #575 Hp the boat needs to
weigh in at less than 10,000 lbs. But remember all the boats
I listed above do a visual inspection of there gears on a regular
basis. You cannot just change gear lube and go boating. Just
think about the abuse these drives are going through for a hour
and a half on any Factory II raceboat.

Goodfella has some very good points. I doubt that Merc approves or disapproves every installation which indicates that the boat manufacture is the one "designing" the engine/drive combo for each boat they build.

I agree that Merc is responsible in a properly designed engine/drive combo which I am sure works fine in most of the applications however when it is mis-applied, the blame is gonna shift. That nor-tech is very heavy which no doubt is leading to the drive failures.

Good Luck.

STOP! STOP! U guyz are are scarring me.I want to upgrade to a 33ZX Donzi with T-500`s and XR drives,but after all this brew-ha-ha am I gonna have to get a second job to boat.:rolleyes:

Issues
 

First of all let me say that I am sorry to see that your plight continues Dennis.

Secondly, I have read the article as well regarding Mr. K's so called statement. If I were to bet on what was actually said vs. what the magazine printed, I'd be on the side of what was actually said. He has been around the business a long time and the very first bravos were stuck behind 400 HP 502's with 500's soon after. Things have changed considerably since the drives inception and there is a definate need for something above and beyond the XR's ability. Merc is very aware of this and I'm pretty sure you will see something from them by the end of the year. I doubt however that it will be a direct replacement of the bravo.

How were your XR's broken in and who did the breakin?

Thirdly, we have lots of XZ's and XR's with the largest (heaviest) being a triple 37 Outerlimits with XZ's and 725 HP in front of them for two full seasons without a failure. Not because they can't break them, but because of discretion. My point being that the drives were not intended for that big a boat with that much HP and a little owner prudence goes a long way. Yes, it does get taken to poker runs and run hard, including Miami to Key West.

Fourthly, we have experience with B-Max's. Granted our biggest application doesn't have the weight you have, but what it lacks in weight is more than offset with what it has for HP. The biggest application we have done with them is an 01 38 Fountain with a pair of 572's with 1071's on top making right at 1000 HP @ 5600 and making 910 ft/lbs of torque starting at 3000 rpms and peaking at 980 @ 4400. Those drives have been abused, did we have issues, yes, but not because of the drive. It was because of improper assembly, machining and tolerance stackups. All very much controllable at assembly. Consequently, we totally rebuilt these drives from the ground up and have not had an issue since. I would guess that since Dean now has a warranty on these drives, many of the issues that we had and which he was informed, have been corrected.

I personally would not hesitate to put a set of B-Max's on anything with 1000 HP or less, with the stipulation being that we tear them completely down, go through them and put them back together. Based on my personal experience, I suspect that the failures experienced by Nortech thus far could have been prevented. It is my opinion that the drive is more than capable of handling your application if its setup properly. If you'd like more info or to talk to me personally, I can be reached days at 920-236-4220.




Rod

SPEED2LEAD,

I honestly don't think you have anything to worry about with your application...scroll up and read my first post on this thread.

RPM (Rod),

Do you do any upgrades/mods to the stock Merc XR drive??? I'm asking because I saw an article in a recent "Family and Performance Boating" magazine where Teague Marine showed a very extreme and extensive upgrade to the stock Merc XR drive complete with several "how to do it" pictures...does your shop offer anything like that to the XR?

Thanks,
Mark (KAAMA)

Upgrades
 

Hi Mark, no we really don't. We've tried most of the stuff out there as well as some of our own without any real success. You can make the shafts stronger, but you can only make the gear floors so thick and when you get to the point that you don't twist or break shafts, you knock the bottoms of the gears out or break teeth. I really have resolved our drive issue to either use merc, imco or teague stuff as it is for up to 600 HP with prudence on hole and out of the water shots or to B-Max's or VI drives depending on the application. Thanks for asking.

Rod

Has anyone considered the Arneson Bravo Conversion?

Cat...

The boat I am looking at is a new 460 Black Thunder. Several
years ago, BT added an 'extension box' to the mold (not a bolt on) with the 43'. Due to this addition, they finally lengthened to swim platform to create the 460... same running surface.

If you are familiar with the 388 Hustler, they have a similar transom design. I looked at a 388 this weekend at the Oceanside CA races and they had #5s with huge boxes... they stated that they have had no handleing issues.

Anyone out there know of someone with a BT and boxes????

Tkanks guys! Ya'll have been very helpful especially Rod ( rpm ) & Catmando. I appreciate your input. I will also let you know how this mess turns out. In the mean time I better watch what I say in a public forum because of the legal implications involved. Sorry I didn't reply sooner but I was gone all weekend. Also let me say that the Nor-Tech is the best build quality boat that I have ever owned & I have owned MANY boats. The damn thing doesn't fall apart like other boats that I have had. It makes a good condo because with all these drive & engine problems that is all I have been able to use it for! For the record the 575's smoke like crazy because Mercury builds them to run too RICH so they don't blow up. They replaced my EEC's, put new plugs in them & put some kind of extra breather deal on the back of each motor but they still smoke pretty bad! I think I leave more fuel in the water than burns through the engines. I mean I leave HUGE pools of black stuff ( unburned fuel ) every time I start this boat up & the longer I idle the worse the problem gets. I can't help it because there is such a thing as a no wake zone! MERCURY DEFINATELY has issues with the 575/xz package & I guess I am going to have to prove it. Again thanks to all you tech heads out there & Rod I will be calling you soon. Hope everybody has a great summer. Dennis
( Luna Sea )

Hey Catmando,
This is one thing that REALLY burns my ass about the new
OSO site the fn PM Message deal! You go there to erase
some pm and it says there isn't any WHAT THE F!!!! :mad: email me at the address in my profile.:cool:

:confused: How & was this issue ever resolved????????:confused:

Hey Blown Formula
Mercury sent there head tech down to work on my boat. Mind you it cost me $5000 ( attornies fees ) to get there attention. They went through many drives fixing my boat but I must give credit where credit is due. They did fix my problem by dropping the center drive down 2" & the outer drives down 1". I didn't have ANY problems for about 25 hours & I was sooo stoked until two weeks ago at the last Lake Travis Poker Run. My center drive fell OFF! Yes FELL off! Right below the spacer. I felt a vibration & a few seconds later the damn thing just left my boat. It looks like the bolts that hold the upper to the lower with the spacer in between just failed. I will let you know what they do to remedy this. It looks like an easy fix. My Summer is over. Hope you had a good one. Sea Ya Denohew ( Luna Sea )

denohew : sorry for you.....

I am confused !:!:!

I now definately think that '' drive is a problem if you are not running with arneson''


2x bravo Imco owner

WOW Denohew! Was the lost lower recovered? I hope you did not have a tremendously expensive prop like a cleaver on there.

Interesting, drives to high making them let loose? Could it be from the props not getting clean water??? Anyone want to speculate as to why this fixed (maybe, just slowed down) the problem.

WELCOME TO HIGH PERFORMANCE BOATING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

575's w/ ITS - XR Drives
 

2002 38 Top Gun w/ 575's - 100 hrs - 4 hard races - lot's of Poker Run's - many hard hours of running time and 0 failures on the drives , engines, etc. We change the fluid every 20 hours and pull the drives after every race. Had a Formula customer that has had some problems and it may go back to rigging. Formula is building him a brand new boat for his troubles. I still say if it ain't black , send it back. Just my .02 worth - Sorry for your bad experience - must be frustrating.


Brian Hollis
PowerBoatTours.com # P3-96
TaLMarine.com

DENOHEW, its John from JAMMIN, the '02 43' NORTECH. We have run several Poker Runs together.
I'd like to weigh in on the B-MAX . You are right, NORTECH's did blow B-MAX's. I blew more than anybody but they were what I call Gen I & II drives. My boat is probably the toughest test platform a B-max was ever bolted to. The boat weighs about 14,000. It's powered with T/725 NORTECH motors that dynoed at 740ft-lb of torque. Thats about 7,000 lb/drive!
My failures were all in the drive shafts in the lower units. Very few people ever blew lower Bravo's because the high power never made it trough the Bravo uppers. Dean (Bravo Shop) solved the upper unit problem but used stock Bravo lowers. Then he beefed up the drive shafts to I believe 1 3/8" (Gen III). These have been working flawlessly for about 40hr and 2 Poker Runs. All drive changes were done at no cost to me under warranty by NORTECH and The Bravo Shop.
I would have no problem recommending the B_MAX's to you. Your boat would carry less than 6,000lb/drive with much less hp and torque.