Raylar- Nothing but problems
 

Yes, This is my 4th post. Yes, my past 3 were in the past week about this same topic. Yes, I have been a member for 3 years and have never posted before. O.K., now the start of my story.

Early last summer I was exploring options for adding some power to my boat (242 Baja). I ended up trying to decide between installing a used 525 Merc or doing the Raylar kit to my 496 Mag with 110 hours on it.

I did a lot of research online and could not find much information or problems with the Raylar packages. I talked to ray a few times and read all of the information on his website trying to make an informed decision. All of the marine tech's I talked to told me not to do it, and they had never heard anything good about trying to modify the 496.

The things that absolutely sticks in my mind are Ray saying that the kit is a " simple, reliable, easy to install systems that just bolt on fun and simple plug & play”.

And ". if your kit is properly installed on your engine and your engine is serviced according to the manufacturer's recommended service requirements and the engine is not abused or used in a racing or competition use then engine life will be equal to or greater than if it were still in a stock configuration"

I found both of these statements to be absolutely false. I would challenge anyone who has done a kit to come on here and say it is a bolt on "plug and play" kit.

I would also challenge anyone to explain how you could take a stock 496, increase power and compression, and take the RPM's up from 4900 to 5400 and increase the life of the engine.

I am still writing the whole story to share, but wanted to get the start of the story out there since I did give my opinion on a different thread that I would not touch anything from Raylar. My 1st motor exploded a piston with 115 hours on it, the very 1st time I took it over 5100 RPM's.

The full story is coming. The ending is either bad or very bad depending on Ray. To be fair to him, I am going to tell everything no matter what he does on the warranty of my 2nd motor that he built.

I'll start the story tomorrow from the time I decided to install the Raylar kit instead of putting in a Merc 525. (ouch)

It is a plug and play kit. Yes, you have to tweak a few things to make it nice and right but I'm unclear exactly what you mean or how it "isn't" bolt on.

I had to modify my oil fill neck a little. The fuel system mod on the BCK-103 Kit is straight forward and pretty much assumed once you see where the kit is going.

It's only a matter of time before anyone has issues with anything if you wanna be honest. I will agree that once you sign off on modifying any engine you own it as I have and many others before and after me.

Let's take a poll on how many guys have put a Whipple on a stock 496 and blew it to shreds. Not trying to debunk you or change your opinion. Just saying there is no "trouble free" fast boat no matter how much research you do.

How long did you hold it open? How long are your wot passes typically? Have you shared your RPM history AFTER the kit was installed?

Who installed it? Did they follow all instructions? Was it a shop or done at home?

Just curious - Sorry to hear.

How many times do we read not to build
496 s and they will last along time problem
free just service them well . I have 740 hrs
on twins and they run just fine.
Trouble free motors , ( if hands are kept out of them )

Life is tough with high perf engines. Even Mercruiser has issues with theirs. Ask the guys with 525's about their headers and ruined engines from the water ingestion. That being said, I hope Ray helps you out. He has a good reputation and probably wants to keep it that way. However, if your engine is out of the warrenty period, he is under no legal obligation to do so. Good luck.

Hawks407 it is very lame to start a thread like this and not do so with all the details. I will give you a few hours to make your case but if you don't come in and explain CLEARLY what happened to you we will have to delete the thread.

Dayum BIG Daddy sorry to hear bout your problems, hope it all worx out 4 ya :drink::drink:

Sounds like you were warned, but you did it anyways.:party-smiley-004:

I installed the Raylar 103 kit in my boat last summer. I had a local boat shop pull the motor and then had a local Mechanic install the kit. They worked together to get the motor back in the boat, and we were all there when they fired it up. As sood as it started, it idled terrible and an alarm would sound after about 30 seconds if it stayed running that long. We called Ray and he said we must have hooked a wire up wrong or done something else wrong. This was @ 10 am on Friday morning.

They both spent most of the day checking and re-checking everything on the motor. They talked with Ray multiple times with him insisting that nothing he did could have caused it. Finally after spending an hour on the phone with him at @ 7pm when we were ready to give up he suggested swapping the ecm with one off of a 496 HO. He had insisted all along that it wasn't possible that the ECM could have been the problem, it just doesn't happen.

When we put the ECM off of a new 496 HO the shop had there, it immediately fired right off and ran great. It was running very rich, but I wasn't worried about it at the time. I talked to Ray and he said to send him the ECM back and he would reprogram it again. He never offered even an apology for basically telling my guys that they had screwed something up. He also offered nothing for the additional 20+ hours of labor I had to (I wouldn't of actually had to, but I wasn't going to penalize the local guys for Ray's mistake) pay for trying to figure out what was wrong.

I was just happy to have a boat for the weekend because we had plans and I didn't want to tell the kid's we couldn't go. I did tell the boat shop owner that I would limit the operating time as much as possible since I was using his ECM off of a brand new boat and it would register the hours. He was going to overnight the ECM back to Ray and Ray was going to reprogram it and overnight it back so I had it the next weekend when we had plans again.

We took the boat out Saturday and Sunday, but basically just out to the beach and back because I wanted to keep the hours down. I never did open it up because Ray said to take it easy the first couple of hours. I loved the way it sounded . Sunday afternoon we took it back to the boat shop with the plans that they were going to change the oil, look things over, and put the ECM from Ray in when it got there Wednesday or Thursday.

When the ECM didn't show up Wednesday, I called Ray and he said that it was going out today. When it didn't show up Thursday, I called and he said it just went out and gave me the tracking number. I talked to the boat shop and begged one more evening of use on their ECM since we had planned on boating to dinner. We went out to dinner Thursday night and then Friday morning I pulled the boat out and headed to the boat shop. On the way I called Ray to ask him about the new ECM and to see if there was anything we could do about all of the soot on the back of the boat from it running so rich. He said that the new ECM wouldn't change anything, and if it was too bad we could turn the fuel pressure down a couple of PSI.

When I got to the shop they had the ECM there and we swapped it out and started it up. It ran great and was not running nearly as rich. They said it was a good thing because they were not going to lower the fuel pressure.

We put the boat in again Saturday morning and loaded it full of kids and headed to the beach. I took it easy all of the way to the beach 25 or so minutes and figured I probably had @ 4-5 hours on the motor by this time.

On the way back from the beach, I was following some friends in a different boat and decided to open it up a little and pass them. This was the first time I had a chance to open it up WOT. I was able to get up to about 4900 RPMs but I wasn't too worried about it since we had a full tank of gas, 8 people, and way too much stuff in the boat. We ran it WOT for maybe 30 seconds before the evil eye from my wife made me back off.

On sunday morning I got up early and snuck down to the boat. I had a couple of different props I had available for testing and was exited to try them out. It was a perfect morning and very quiet on the river. I idled out from the Marina to the lake then got up on plane and headed towards the main channel. When I got out there I fired up the GPS to get some true speed numbers and then opened it up. I was recording the speed and rpm's at each 500 rpm increment until 5000 and then I opened it up to see what it would do at WOT. I was running full out for about 30 seconds when the motor nuked. It was the first time that the motor had ever been above 5000 RPM's and I was at @ 5300 when it let go.

I am not a Mechanic, but I new instantly the motor was junk. It siezed up and the coolant all drained into the motor. I towed the boat back to the boat shop feeling sick.

I called Ray first thing Monday morning and told him what happened. He basically said a piston must have let go, it happens. It was a very strange and different conversation from anything we had had to this point. I asked him what he was going to do for me, and he said nothing. He said that his kit didn't do anything, it was just a bad piston that let go. I asked him about his numerous statements about how his kit's don't cause any problems, and actually make the motor stronger. He insisted that it was absolutely not his problem. I think I would have been o.k. with this if I knew the risk going in and if he had been upfront about it.

When he told me that it was just that motor's time to go, and I said that's funny that it was the first time I took it over 5000 RPM's and had never had a bit of trouble, I think he honestly felt bad.

I asked him if there was any thing he could do for me, and he offered to sell me one of his bulletproof blocks at a reduced price and rebuild the motor for me (at only 80$ an hour instead of his usual rate). I couldn't come up with another motor at this time, so unbelievably I took him up on his offer and sent my motor off to him.

He emailed me about a week later with "Your exisitng 496 short block was destroyed by the cylinder #1 piston failure!

The number one piston totally self distructed and the connecting rod and pin broke completely thru the side wall of #1 bore and the top of the connecting rod wedged up against the top of the punched out bore wall and locked the engine up and destroyed the block."

He was going to build me a brand new motor from the bottom up, with a full warranty since he was doing it all.

Engine 2 story next.

Sorry to hear your having troubles. You don’t say whether you installed the kit or bought a complete engine modified by Ray. From your post it appears like you did the work yourself. Yes they are bolt on kits, but you must have the proper abilities/tools for installation. As with modifying anything if it isn’t done properly it will fail. Did you check your fuel pressure and air/fuel ratio when the installation was complete? Run a 525 or ANY motor lean and it will fail in short order, but you cant blame the manufacturer for poor tuning. As with anything go-fast if you want to modify for more power you better learn how to install, tune, and maintain properly or be willing to pay someone with these skills.

I am very happy with my experiences with Raylar and the parts he sells. My boat is run at WOT for long stretches with no issues. It sucks that you had a problem and are going through a learning curve. I have been there done that with a few hotrods myself back in the day. Once you get your issues corrected you will have a great motor and I wish you the best of luck.

Live wire with a Sunsation from mahopac marine just did the 700 Raylar and I think they were very happy with Raylar and thier service. I am sure he will see this a give his opinion.

Does this 496 model have cast pistons? if so what do you expect?................................Robertjr... ...........................

How can you blame a cast piston failure on anyone?

They are cast, the 496 has a known issue with this problem.

I personally used CNC'd iron heads on a 496 and a performance cam and had the same issue at 600 hours. Once you modify them.... who knows when they will let loose. I modified it at 200 hrs and it ran for 400 hours modified... not bad.

Didnt get to read the above as you posted while I was writing mine. Sounds like you either had a weak piston from the factory, something happened to it during its 110 hours, or you were running lean. Did the mechanics check your air/fuel ratio after installation was complete?

I would expect the ecm to limit the rpm to a safe speed for the type pistons involved, wouldn't you?

I did all the work. I used an A/F meter to test and set at 12.8

The kit is plug and play but you have to realize you are swapping heads. Not exactly easy but not hard for an experienced engine builder. it isnt as easy as changing a throttle body but its all relative...

Are you sure your mechanics understood the 496? Thats why I educated myself, many/most mechanics dont know too much about the 496.

Thanks Hawks. I appreciate the feedback on your experience. I know some guys are bashing you for talking about Raylar, but all I ever here is that the kits are awesome on the internet. Some people say stay away from them, but you never hear why.

I don't see any reason you can't just give the straight up facts about your experience without getting the keyboard jockeys all fired up.

I'm the same guy with a 496 that I would love to have a Raylar kit on, but have read enough in the last few weeks to be skeptical.

Keep the story coming.

I agree with your statement however I am not skeptical. It just makes so far for a more informed person/purchase.

I have built and have had built enough engines in boats cars and motorcycles to realize that anything man made or mechanical has a finite life and at any moment anything can happen.

I have spoken to Ray a few times and I always found him accommodating and forthright with me.

I also don't have a problem with hawks posting his point of view on his encounters.

I think this thread handled properly can be very informative for everyone. So i hope it stays civil.

Also it is my understanding that 8.1's come with hyper-eutectic pistons.

Hey kieth when I said "above post" I meant the full story from the person who started this thread. I agree totally with your post.

My "new" motor from Ray arrived the week before Labor day weekend, and we got it back in the boat. I had detailed break in instructions from Ray. Run it for at least 10 hours with the oil that is in it. Vary the speeds constantly and keep it under 4000 RPM's. We did exactly that over the weekend and it ran great. I think my favorite part of both motors was the sound at idle, you could really tell the different cam.

We took it back to the boat shop and had them change the oil and took their fuel pressure guage. Ray had told us the last thing we should do was make sure the fuel pressure was staying up at WOT at higher RPM's then "Run it like you stole it".

I took the wife with me and we took it up to the river, hooked the guage and ran it for about 30 minutes. Everything looked good, so we took it back and put the boat away for the year since we don't boat in the fall.

Memorial weekend this year we get the boat out again for the first time. We boated out to dinner on Saturday and everything went fine. Sunday we head out with a group for a longer boat trip (@40 miles) since we are in a group we never really open it up, just cruising and hitting a few beaches and other spots. We have all the kids, so not getting crazy.

On the way back we have split from the group and are getting closer to home. There is a barge ahead so I speed up and am running about 4100 Rpms passing the barge. All of the sudden the boat drops about 300 RPM's and it sounds like there are pop cans banging around under the hatch, definately metal on metal. I take it off plane and pull well to the side away from the barge. It sounded fine and was idleing fine. We shut it down, checked everything over and couldn't find anything.

I started it back up and since we were about 5 miles from home got it back up on plane and headed back at about 2800 RPM's. When we got back we unloaded everything and then I went back down to the dock and looked everything over again. I couldn't find anything, but thought I heard a slight tick.

I idled the boat around and took it out of the water. I dropped it off to the boat shop and called them and Ray on tuesday. I told them to check it out and call Ray then I would pick it up in 2 weeks. They looked it over and talked to Ray, and nobody could come up with an explaination. Ray basically said if it ran back the 5 miles don't worry about it.

We picked the boat back up on Friday and put it in Saturday morning. I loaded the kids and coolers in the boat and idled out of the Marina. When we hit the lake I got it up on plane and made it 1/2 a mile at 1/2 throttle when it made the same noise and lost power just like before. I idled back to our dock to drop off the kids. On the way there and when I stopped I could hear a definate ticking noise. I take the boat back to the ramp at an idle, and 1/2 way there the noise stops. We loaded the boat up and dropped it back off at the boat shop (sort of a standing joke by now on my boat, friends love to call up laughing)

Monday morning talk to the guy at the boat shop. He says that the noise is definately there now, and one cylinder is low on compression. He pulled the plug on that cylinder sqirted in some oil, and the compression came back up. He says that he still thinks that it is something in the top end, but he is not going to go any further. He will pull the motor but he is not removing one bolt from it.

I had real problems at this point in getting anyone to look at the motor. Everyone was either really busy or wanted nothing to do with it. This was definately not Rays fault, but it was about to get ugly.

Two weeks later I get a guy I know who builds racing motors to take a look at it. I had to do some real arm twisting because he was not too happy about climbing up in the boat and working in the engine compartment. He pulled the valve cover off and said the nut holding one of the roller-rockers had backed almost all of the way off. He also said that the bearing was damaged and the push rod was damaged from hitting eachother and needed to be replaced, and he needed a new valve cover gasket. He told me that every nut on that side turned at least 1/4 turn when torqued to specs and some were close to coming loose as well. He thought the lack of compression was from that cylinder "washing down".

We called Ray and told him what we had found and he agreed to send us new parts right away. My mechanic told Ray about everything being loose, and asked if Ray wanted him to pull the other side and check them but Ray told him no, "it will be fine"

The parts showed up a few days later and I took them to my Mechanic. As soon as we opened the box, it was clear things were used. He sent us a used valve cover gasket (which would have been usable), the wrong push rod, and a used rocker which my Mechanic said was worse than the one out of my boat.

We called Ray and he told us just to put them in, It would be fine. My mechanic told him the bearing was bad, and if it let go it could nuke the whole motor. Ray again say's don't worry just put it in for the weekend and I will send you a new one. When my mechanic got off the phone he said there was no way he was putting that rocker or the old push rod back in the motor, so we decided to wait for the new one.

One week later I called Ray to see where our new parts were, and his answer was I sent you the other ones to get you by for now. I told him we didn't put them in and weren't about to. This really set him off and he proceeded to tell me that no one in Iowa knows anything about building motors and he has forgotten a lot more that my guy will ever know about motors. At this point I've had enough of Ray and tell him that may be so, but my guy has not forgotten how to torque a nut.

This really set him off and he proceeds to tell me how it's all my fault for racing all the time and running the motor so hard. I inform him that this motor probably has 2 minutes total at WOT and has less that 15 hours since he built it. He shuts up and says he'll send the parts.

He finaly did send the new parts and we got the boat put back together.


Now I've paid for the labor to fix it but he will not even return my calls, emails or faxes for the past few weeks to let me know if he is going to reimburse me.


I had 2 Raylar motors in my boat for over 1 year and never had a single weekend of boating where I had no restrictions or problems.

The End

How old was your gas Hawks? That would be my first guess at problem definition. I

Hawks, I would most definitely have someone re-torque your heads and check the adjustment on your valve train. Good luck going forward.

Gas was brand new. It was so low when we where having problems right after doing the kit that we took it and put 20 Gallons in to make sure it wasn't a problem, then filled it on the way to the river (no ethanol).

You guys talking about the cast pistons are making my point. Don't mess with the 496. Ray isn't going to tell you this.

Not picking sides. But going back to the first motor,I for one would never run a motor with the improper ecm,or ecm tune for that matter.The ecm that Ray provides is tuned to his particular kit.You stated how rich the motor was running and still choose to take it out. Just my 2 cents

Ray told me to. He also said that they were programmed the same.

From the post-mortem done by Ray on the first motor, it sounds like the piston broke from over-speed. A chance you take when pushing a mass-produced, production motor spec'd hypereutic piston beyond its intended operating speed. As for the second motor, do some searches on Raylar valve springs and rocker arm retaining nuts.

EDIT

from an old thread.

Maybe you should invest in some ARP rocker nuts just to be sure.

Interesting read, usually at this point Raylar chimes in for his version. I'd like to hear that side also.


<<Also it is my understanding that 8.1's come with hyper-eutectic pistons.>>

With regard to the weak hyper pathetic pistions (old term), could a guy put stronger pistons in to alleviate that problem?

Or, does this get you in to just rebuilding the thing top to bottom to make it stay together. ...which would also not really be a 'bolt on kit'

Great thread, keep it going.

All of this to pick up how much horsepower???? And on a Bravo 1x drive at best. This is just asking for constant problems. And add on the fact that Raylar is sending him junk parts (if this is indeed true) to get through a weekend.....WTF!

That's sounds extremely weird to me.:eek:

i have a feeling this is going to get interesting

Popcorn ready! :food-smiley-007:

I will say hawks407 has done a great job describing what happened without an attitude.

I thought the 525 kit was supposed to be safe for the hyperatic pistons but if you went to 600 kit it was recommended to change the pistons. If I remember right this issue was with a 525 kit. Pistons being 1 issue if the guy checked his rockers and they were all loose that would be a engine builder issue which was Ray. It would be interesting to hear the other side.

Just a little experience for you hyper haters. I built 2 engines identical, 9.5:1 static compression, 5psi boost hyper pistons. Due to an unrelated issue first time out for the season I filled one engine with bearing material and had to rebuild it including new pistons because of metal in the skirts. This time because of reading all the negative hyp about hypers, I used forged pistons. Both engines ran great all summer with regular hard beatings on both in long poker runs and fun runs. Last run of the year I decided to go for 95mph and got two 6.2psi blower pulleys. Boat ran like a raped ape all day and did deliver 94mph. Unfortunately after a long final wot blast back to the ramp one engine got hurt. Yep, forged engine piston failure. Hyper engine is still running strong today. Forged engine rebuilt yet again. Moral- don't believe everything you read. If you know how to build and setup an engine with hypers they are as good or better than forged.

Also, I agree with bondo10. The reason you got a new ecu was for a different fuel curve and timing curve. Running with a stock ecu was certainly a poor move and I am suprise ray would sanction that.

Correct, there is nothing wrong with hyper eutectic pistons, the only draw back I have heard from them is they tend to have a little piston slap in the 8.1's until the warm up. I'm not 100% certain but I also heard they will swell a little, hence the slap until they warm up.

I too think hawks has done a good job and hopefully he and Ray can come to a good conclusion that everyone can benefit from...

Actually it is the opposite. They swell little and can be fit tighter in the hole hence making more power. The real drawback is they are brittle due to the higher silicone content. So if you do have a setup issue or fuel issue and get into detonation they explode and wreck the block. That is why it was such a bad idea for hawk to run a stock tune and why it's hard for me to believe ray would say that is ok.

gotcha, thanks, it has been so long since I even messed with them...I knew about the brittleness but forgot why.

Not picking sides, but Hawks has been very fluid in his description and I give him credit for building TWO motors with Ray. After his first one I am not sure I would have spent more money.

As an interesting side note, Ray @ Raylar had been a regular poster, usually a few posts a week. Nothing posted by him in over a month........Hmmmmmm

Guys I have run my Raylar 525 HO hard for many a miles and have had no issues with the kit.....60 + hours now.

I had a professional shop pull the motor and install the kit for me. They work and service 1075s and bigger. This same shop is now where I tow my boat 3 1/2 hours one way to get all my servicing done, as well they advertise here.

The ECM that must be reprogrammed is the 496 Mag ECM, and in the instructions there is a nice sheet included that reminds all 496 owners of this.

In talking with Ray it was/is my understanding that the 496 MAG HO ECM does not need to be reprogrammed but is recommended to bump up the rev limiter and take out the negative timing at idle and low rpm.

I have a buddy running a 525 Raylar in a 27 Fountain and he hurt a piston as well, I will give him a call and get the real details, but I do know he put over 100 hours on it before hurting it.

If there really is an issue spinning these new Raylar equipped motors to 5350 rpm as suggested and the pistons are known to be weak or the weak link I would want to know!!

Rumors
 

Look guys,

We're all grown men or at least we should be by now. I think Hawk's story is not a good one and I do feel for him based on what he's said. Loosing any engine or expensive part sux.

However, before you go closing down the shop for the guys @ Raylar, why don't we be a little patient and see what the OTHER side has to say before we enter a default judgment.

Also, the comment regarding how "long" it's been since Raylar posted implies that they are running or "hiding". How do you know someone in the family isn't sick? How do you know someone didn't take an actual vacation after who knows how much time without one? And don't forget that Raylar has managed to do a pretty decent job of holding on to a viable reputation. Now we have a bad thread about them. Okay, so they're not virgins anymore.

I'm not defending Raylar although I have had some very good service. I've had some problems but we worked through it (very well mind you...).

There has to be more to this story and the quick-to-assume types are not doing the situation any good.

Whadua say we wait a day or two before the final keyboard Blitzkrieg???

And hey, if it gets a lot worse than I have to stand corrected...

is the ECM being reprogrammed on the 525 kits now?

I purchased one of the first kits to leave the Raylar shop and Ray insisted to run it on stock ECM and no reprogram necessary which I found hard to believe. Ended up buying a stand alone system but never got around to installing it.