The FPT 560 has a weight of 1,430 lbs without gear or about 20 lbs less than the QSB480's without gear.

This is what is making the FPT look real attractive in comparison to the CMD.

Pat, your 2 speed might not use much more but the ones that FPT and Cummins recommend certainly do.

interesting on the weight.. how does all this stack up against the Yanmar, also what are the max rpms on all 3 motors...

The Yanmar 6LY3-ETP 480 HP has a weight of 1,411 lbs

So.. 1,411 lbs for the Yanmar 480 hp motor

1,420 lbs for the FPT 560 hp motor (they will flash 600 hp)

1,450 lbs for the Cummins 480 hp motor

Note: all weights are without gear, oil, or coolant. Add another 100 lbs for fluids and 171 lbs for a ZF gear or 215 lbs for a Twin Disc

So having experience running the little Yanmar and Volvos in the 250 to 315 range, and knowing they are a 1000 hour motor that is going to need something in the neighborhood of 2 to 3 thousand dollars in only parts just beyond this time, and at best are 2000 hour full power motor, What is the advantage everybody here is seeking over a large cubic inch gas motor.


The 480 Yanmar and the 480 Cummins which are the most applicable diesel installations that can be compared to a gas installation and have the beef to be called a real diesel engine ,how do the measure up in the long run over a big cube gas motor for upfront cost ,How do they measure up in todays lightweight high performance designed boats?,How do the upfront costs with the upgrades needed to make them perform properly and how long will it take to recoup those added expenses and will you see it on the bottom line when you sell it?

How does the up front cost plus the extra you have to spend on overdrives to get it to work compare to the upfront costs of some big Cube N/A Chevys or the Ilmoors.


And lastly what is the hard costs for maintaing ,fuel and needed repairs compare in the long run.



Not out to bust balls ,just starting a conversation with those who are interested and and a few that have experience and a couple more who work in the field.








For example how would some 500 hp Bulldogs compare to the 480 Yanmars that Bob the builder is running in his boat and lets use his boat for a known baseline for fuel burn and performance.

Tommy, I just saw this now before retiring for the night. I will share my experience with the Yanmar's tomorrow which I believe now have about 440 hrs on them and still going strong.

Thanks RIK.. The FPT look attractive, too bad their presence and customer support is not as good as Yanmar or Cummins.

My point is when I was building my Yanmar boat, I wanted so bad to go with Sea-Tek at the time.. Sobo talked me out of it do to lack of customer support here in the states.. Im glad he did..cause they folded right after my boat was finished. Thats the only thing that scares me about FPT, I just need to do more research.

Im anxious to see what Bob has to say on his 480hp Yanmars, and how they have held up.. are they smoke free, do they load up in reverse, have they been trouble free. Great all around package, just wish I could have close to 600hp in a twin application on another 43 NT, or say a 44 OL.

Get the 600 Cummins (CMD) "C's" you will never look back - a little heavier than the FPT probably 1,200 lbs for both when installed with gears and all but at 43' you can carry the weight. Great service, big bore engine compared to the Yanmar, 100% psoitive it will get on plane better than the Yanmar, no subsitute for cubic inches to make low end power and you have the largest service network out there.

You can take a 43'er on a trailer to a Cummins distributor anywhere in the US and they can work on it. If the distributor in FL was so jammed pack, trailer the boat to GA or TN or KS and they can work on it - try that with a Yanmar.

Any Cummins distributor can service the engine under warranty does not need to be a marine dealer. Not that I'm talking down to dealers but with Cummins you go right to the distributor level and have peace of mind - it's the factory.

First of all I hope Mike will forgive us all for wandering away from the thread title where he was looking for info on FPT. As always happens with these diesel threads different product gets mentioned but the discussion is always interesting and we all learn something from it.

To answer Tommy, Jeff and anyone else interested my experience with the Yanmars has been nothing but good. It serves my purpose of pushing a heavy boat at speeds up to mid 70's which still allows me to do poker runs but cruises comfortably at about 68 MPH all day long with a 400 mile range. Would I like a package that would give me another 10 + MPH ? You bet. For those not familiar with what I am running, it is 50' Nor Tech Vee with trip Yanmar 480's hooked up to Arneson ASD - 8 drives. My 9 ft beam allows for the three Yanmars side by side. The Cummins ( which I agree with Joe is a great motor with support network ) are too wide to fit 3 in. As far as FPT, I have only recently became aware of their offering and will follow along to see how they do in the months and years ahead. I wish them well. I expect for a long time to come tho, a supporting dealer network here may be an issue ?
Anyway I will get back to answering Jeff and Tommy's questions. Jeff as far as smoke goes it is no issue at all. I have learned that when backing into a slip as long as you do not throttle up as we do with our gas boats, there will be no smoke. It's hard not to touch those throttles when you have a bit of wind or tide action going on but I have learned how to manage it nicely and occasional use of the bow thruster is just the ticket.
Tommy was interested in operating costs as compared to gas and gave the example of 500 Bulldogs. Never had those in any of my boats but I can offer a comparison with my previous 50 NT with trip 850's which may not be a good comparison but may show why I like my current setup better.
Top speed - 850's = 97 MPH 480 Yanmars = 76 MPH
Cruising speed 850's = 75 + Yanmars = 68 - 70 MPH
Range with same 400 gal tank 850's = 200 miles Yanmars = 400 miles
Consumption at cruise 850's 2 gal / mile Yanmar's 1 gal / mile
Time between rebuilds 850's = 300 hrs when new and every 225 - 250 hrs max after that. Yanmars 440 hrs at this time and still very strong. Could be in thousands of hours but who knows?
Yanmar repair history in first 440 hrs - Starboard motor - never been touched, center motor small leak in fuel oil line, and port motor rebuild power steering pump. My costs are measured in the few hundreds of dollars as compared with a staggering amount that would reach 6 figures on some years with the 850 gas. With the 850's in addition to rebuilds every 12 to 15 months due to high usage I would need either new headers or repairs every 2 years, transmission rebuilds, # 6 rebuilds and I can go on and on. I have none of those issues with my current setup. I just go boating !

Bob very nice insightful post.

Bob - that was great, I'm so glad to hear everything is good, it just makes me happy to see that 25 years later my visions are coming true - thank you again!

Just got off the phone with Banks Diesel. The guy would not give me any information about the twin turbo supercharged marine motor they're working on. 800hp/900tq. I know he knows something but he's not giving out any information. They put two motors in a customs boat I know.

This motor would be a game-changer for diesel power in boats. High hp/light weight you could use two where three were necessary before.

Awesome boat ! neat rigging too.
Could you give some more info about the propellors /pitch and diameter ,and ratio gearbox etc ,,and what engine rpm,s total weight of the boat ?

Dream on! :drink:

Why do you always bring them up, seriously are you planning on being a dealer or something when they release them?

I'll tell you my take on this again from a different view point, even if the engines run well and have some degree of longevity (1,000 hrs, which I think will be extremely high for them), if I had Bob or Jeff's money (I'm not counting it just going by the toys they post) and given their taste for quality production boats (not one off customs or modified), their expectations for dependability and let's bring up another point - Jeff trades his boats out often it seems - RESALE!

Why would they or the reputables builders they choose with install Banks engines in their boats?

Either owner knows selling the used diesel boat is a harder sell for so many reasons, you need the right buyer. That buyer will look twice at the engines because they might be taking the boat to a different area to boat - where will they get Banks service & parts? How many hours are the engines really good for, because Bob might have used the boat to go from Maine - Brazil and back twice - LOL!

There is a place for the Banks product and until it is proven the upper eschelon of customers and builders just won't look at it. You see the resistance on this thread not from me alone but others about FPT who is a gobal engine builder with billons of dollars behind them.

Cat, I would like to see someone rise-up and do it but the obstacles to selling into the top builders and having the top customers buy them is too great for Banks to overcome. If Banks was really serious they would build a boat with Bravo type drive or RIK Arneson / Bravo conversion (leave the Bravo element, people feel safe with it) and go race it here in the US with Charlie and whatever organization is putting on races next year in a "P" class and then set a couple records. Without 2-3 years of winning and not everbreaking then you'll get people to try them - you pushing them will not get it done.

We did that already.....whatever ratio you want. on center etc....

How many do you want do you want it to go to a chev bellhousing?

pat W

Thanks Steve, Joe and Stirling.

I agree Nor Tech did a great job on the rigging. Very neat and accessible. Props I think are Mercury 18 X 33. They are my weak link. I have thrown 3 blades in the 440 hrs. I am looking at bronze props. Does anyone have an opinion if they will fare any better ? I would like to do another long distance run next summer and I just cannot have a prop failure half way there. Might never come home ! LOL Engine rpm are 3,450 max. and weight is approx 20,000 lbs plus fuel. I have no idea on gearbox ratio and try not to get all caught up on some of the highly technical aspects of all of this but admire those that do. I try and leave that to the experts.

Bob

PatW, Do you have a picture of them?

Bob what about Rolla?

all this info is great on all the different motor's .
keep it coming .

one of the worry's as said above is part's and service for the fpt if i go out of range of the dealer in south florida . but as time come's closer i will do more research .
yanmar ,cummin's are both good motor's so there not out of the question.
there's a 43 nortech with yanmar's for sale is that one of you guy's ?
ive also thought about buying a good used boat that has the deisal's in it already :)

thank's
mike

blue nor-tech just sold not long ago, took it a little while but it was a twin yanmars (i think) with surface drives...beautiful boat. not sure what cruise and top end speeds it was capable of though...I'm sure someone here know tho:party-smiley-004:

Joe,

Yes I do I will dig them up it was 10 years ago now.

Diesel years, things happen slow.

pat W

You are too funny - diesel years!

Thank you

Joe, your being a bit hard on FPT.. They have dealers on the East and the West coast already and are slowly moving themselves into the middle America.. Regardless of if the guy you need is next door the parts have to be there as well and UPS or FED Ex are what can make that happen.. Of course, not needing those parts in the first place is key.

FPT has priced themselves under the competition and have brought a good product to market so I say give them a chance. A few years ago Yanmar had everyone by the balls and now CMD has changed that in a relative short period of time. FPT can only help the consumer as well.

RIK - in support of FPT, I know they are the old Iveco and if any of you know who Aggreko is they used the Iveco's in the their smaller gensets for many years. As being part of the largest independantly owned Aggreko agent in the US years ago we saw plenty of them. I will say no matter which model they ran very well, lasted a long time and had little problems - a good engine. I know the dealer structure has changed and FPT partnering with Case and that whole group gives them a sh*t load of dealers in North America they will 150% be able to provide a better network for service & parts then years ago.

I like the engines, like the company, like allot about them. If MAN and MTU can break into the US then FPT has the money to do it also.

My fears for people on here both users and buiders is this community is very small and image / performance is everything here. When you look at what Eliminator did with the Cummins powered 43 and as people on here have said the engines were taken out? That to me gives everyone involved a blackeye. I just would not like anyone here to have a bad experience and maybe damage a reputation - let's see them in some cruiser type boats, run a bunch of hours and see what happens first?

This is a Buzzi story that I told on here once before but it still is good and makes a point.

When the Gancia and Ebel were in their prime 1988, 1989 Buzzi if you remember was big on "our Seatek engines race the whole season not like your gasoline engines they need to be rebuilt after every race (old 500cui Class 1 engines)" When I got there and we started using the Seatek and it was recomended that everyother race they come out and be "gone over" my radar went up. "What is gone over?". They may need a need head, fresh rings, etc, etc. - I was very quick to point out the "lasts the whole season" thing and was told that - "the block, crank, rods & psitons are all the same everything else is a maintenace item"

You know my point 560hp small cui and we see Buzzi winning a race, but how many hours are really on them? If driven hard for 100, 200, 400, 800 hours will they last or not? Put them in a SeaRay where they run under heavy load at 90% for 250 hours and let's see.

RIK - for all I know it's been done - but I do not, not like the FPT and I believe if they have success in the truck/industrial markets they want to be here in the US they will have great marine service - if they fail in the industrial markets they will pull out.

Here's the real question, will the FPT truck/industrial meet Tier 4 emissions in the US, if not then sales on engines here will go to nothing very soon. You know that emissions is a big pain here and getting worse and you need the other markets to support a marine market because it is just too small on it's own. MAN came in and kicked butt because they had a product that was higher in HP than an 8-92 and weighted allot less, DDA had no other iron to put against it. Once the 60 series & CAT got going, you saw the MAN loose market share. Then MTU comes in with larger engines, takes over DDA and boom a complete line. Now speculate FPT does a great job here, they only make small engines nothing large and MTU takes them over in the US market and now can compete head to head with CMD and have a more robust line of engines all the way to 2,000 hp and beyond!!!!

One more thing and I love discussing this stuff with you guys by the way - nothing against Arneson as I always endorse them having used them in a few boats. Say FPT should follow in the path of Cummins when the "B" was rolled out. No one, but no one would install the "B" as a new build, it's fake diesel, no liners, etc, etc.

What did Cummins do - the repower market. That is why I ask PatW about the box and keep mentioning the Black drive. The first company to truely be able to replace a mid-horsepower gas engine with a diesel economically when win the war. Being able to keep the existing Black drives or a HP version of the same drive, drop in a diesel will do what Cummins did - create a market for new engines by first building the repower market.

In my opinion that is how you go into this market - make that work, there are probably 25 boat owners on this board alone that if they could get out of gas, put in diesels not rework the entire boat, cruise at or above where they used to cruise, be a few MPH slower and have zero maintance dollars like Bob has would spend that money next week - you then are building consumer confidence with the FPT brand and winning customers without risking public flops like the Eliminator 43 which i think was a sweet baot would have given both nuts for that thing!

I spoke to a yanmar dealer in tampa fl , area start's with " m" for got the name but they have ben in the biz, for a long time . i told him i was looking at yanmar power performance boat and asked how many hour's i should get out of the motor's .

this is the best part dont know if it's true or not

10,000 to 15,000 hour's on non performance boat's

and would estimate a good 5,000 hour's on a performance boat and maybe more depending on how it was driven . but he has not had to rebuild any performance boat's yet with yanmar's they just dont put enough hour's on them .

he did say that there are some small thing that have to fixed here and there but nothing to do with the motor block head's ect, mostly accessories on the motor .

that is amazing if true .

anyone know of a deisal performance boat with over 1000 + hour's ? for better insight

i know there's a 40 hustler with the 350 hp yanmar's for sale and it has 1100 hour's and of course since there selling it they say it run's great ."maybe it doe's" " but to slow for me " :)

mike

Well, like you mentioned, even CMD has had their flops. :D

The Cummins is pretty much a small hp player in the marine world as MTU and CAT have most of the sales of the big motors. The QSM11 is about the best hi hp motor at 715 hp. Everything else get's far to heavy. MAN has a terrible reputation for some reason (anyone remember the doc that paid to have flyers handed out and a plane fly over the Miami Boat Show pulling a banner for a few years pressuring MAN to take his junk back?.. Worked!) Seatek is.. Well they speak for themselves.:eek:

Buzzi is using the FPT's currently. Why? Italian to Italian? They give them to him? ? He has had failures though and while they are kept on the down low, they are still failures. Hopefully they learn from them and move forward.

Like I said before, the CMD QSB5.9 480 is cleaning up the Yanmars as they have more torque, are cleaner and are priced less by several thousand $$$$$$ I'm all for them but we always want more and I welcome FPT to give it a shot also. Change is good.

Tier 4.. Cummins is Tier 4 currently. Yanmar & FPT?

I don't think you'll get a Bravo to live with a Diesel, they don't live the best of life's with gas.

I got to start getting out to the races or boat shows again, I really have to meet some of you all in person!:drink:

ps I remember the MAN episodes, how many of those were in Vikings, Post & Ocean from right here in NJ - I remember there was MAN distributor in South Plainfield and now in Woodbridge MAN has a "corporate" kind of office complex/warehouse there.

Mark my words you and I will work on a project some day together, it would be fun!

How many of the Bravo / Arneson conversion deals have you been part of, how does that work with the transmission is it in the boat or the extension and is it just a straight thru or any gear/chain drops in there?

surface drive's all the way :)

so what's the price for these other 2 motor's ? i know the fpt price and that's an over the phone price .

fpt 560 hp $ 33,150 no gear's

cummins 480 hp $ ? no gear's

yanmar 480 hp $ ? no gear's

thank's
mike

You will have to play the game to get the prices.. They will price them differently according to what you want with them meaning it might be less expensive to purchase the engine with a gear rather than a gear and engine separately.

All of them.. I'm the one who created it and the transmission in the box to keep the engines in the aft part of the boat. I have a drop in the Arneson. Chain/Gear depending upon rotation. Close coupling have the transmission in the box, drive line applications have it forward.

So, you can OD that then, what kind of trans and could you get an SAE#3 close enough hook it up (you know the turbos hang over the back sometimes)?

Arneson = peace of mind....under rated for the power they will handle..

Thank You Bob...great info, no hear say, and one kick azz boat.. :ernaehrung004:



now..someone said the Cummins have more torque at a lower rpm..is that true... and what is the torque on the Yanmars and FPT's.. LOVE this thread.. :drink:

I don't know if anyone said torque, maybe me?

But I refernced the Cummins "C" against the FPT and I think the Yanmar as well as having more CUI and that will have the ability to pull from the lower RPM's better to get on plane.

You had the diesel boat what's the worse engine RPM's , just trying to get on plane 1,200-1,1500 where you just can't make enough boost to get the props turning and the engine seems flat - more cubes can help over come that.

the dealer i spoke with for sometime about the fpt was pushing the zf 2 speed , i would rather get the wiesmann 3 speed :)
but it all depend's on the info and research i find out about the muilti tran's. unless i buy a boat already set up with the deisal's and arniee's already there .

mike

Both Yanmar and Cummins have a bellhousing that accepts a Velvet Drive transmission bolt pattern so that would not be a problem and drive lines can be made in nearly any length needed if there is clearance issues.

Yes, the Arnesons are over/under capable in both rotations.

Hmmmm.......sounds familiar..........

All I wanted to find out is where they're at in terms of product rollout. The guy wouldn't tell me. I think they're being very hush-hush about it. They might bring their demo motor to the Miami show again this Feb. though. Maybe some of you diesel freaks could drop by the booth...

anyone have info on this amount of hour's or is being a sell's man .

thank's
mike

Exactly, I have seen #8 s come back in with a 6 blade Rolla nothing a nub on the shaft from trying to drive it off of a rock pile and the drive good to go while a # 6 would last these guys 5 minutes.