WTF is up with F2?
 

I just spoke with a friend of mine who raced this past weekend in SC-Lite. He broke the lap that the race was called as he was in a battle for the lead. But he said something interesting...

I've been out of F2 racing for 2 years and we were pretty fast then. But my friend said that F2 has gone insane! He said that he was running flat out and fast and a Gladiator walked him. He also said that he couldn't pull the Fountains. The 35 Motion in Sc-Lite trim runs in the low 100s and gets there fast. In order for the Glad to do this, he would have had to be running 110! I didn't think the laws of physics would allow a solid vee, stepped or not to overcome the drag advantages of an air-trapper. Its a good thing I retired, I couldn't even come close...the fastest I saw on GPS was 93.8!

To all the F2 guys...Go Babay, Go!!!

Todd Dalton
34' Eliminator Eagle
F2-19 "Flirtin' With Disaster"

This must have something to do with the missing thread "SBI cheaters".

I hadn't seen that thread.

But it could be...in SBI you don't have to run Merc power right? They are just supposed to dyno the motors.

correct...and they allow stagger in F2

Uh...lap times are average speeds, they do not reflect top speeds. What were the lap speeds for the SCLites?

I'm no engineer, but wouldn't top speed be calculated by...engine speed directly related to drive gear ratios? Obvioulsy drag and slippage would influence as well, where a cat would have a distinct advantage because less hull touches the water. I can't figure out how a 35' Fountain can go from a 95 MPH top speed to a 105 MPH top speed. Are the motors in SBI, when tested, getting their 500 horses at 6500 RPM instead of 52-5400 like the Mercs? That could account for the added prop RPMs necessary to add that amount of speed. Even a staggered configuration with the different X-factor and its inherent "squirreliness" neccessitating the canopies shouldn't make that much difference.

I'm still curious.

Todd

Hey RR......I know you've been away for good stretch, but you don't have to make up for everything in the first week back.....:D ;) Makin' my friggin' head spin.........

Sorry R/T...I really just want to know.

This could revolutionize boat buying habits again. It used to be if you wanted to go fast with or without crazy power, a cat had the most bang for the buck...or MPH for the HP. Believe it or not, this time I'm serious.

All right, maybe not completely serious, but I do want to know.

Just f*ckin' with ya buddy.....:p :p . It is a good questions.

I just looked at the SBI stats.

The F2-15 boat had the above lap speeds for an average speed of 83.08 MPH.

The second place Super Vee (V1 Firewater) had lap speeds of...79.9, 81.5, 85.5, 85.2 with an average speed of 83.01. The first place SV was V2 Muscle that averaged 85.11.

Not only does that "jive" with 1100 HP...it jives with 14-1500 HP.

How can an F2 be faster than a Super Boat Vee?

2 Things, First of all on Sunday before the race the Coast Guard made SBI move the corner bouys in because of the bad weather conditions, how much no-one knows, therefore the average results on speed do not jive with actual average speeds. 2nd why is it hard to believe that a v bottom boat can not run high 90's? After all the kilo record is 94 and with bigger steps, higher x's, lighter weights, prop technology, staggers, canopies, short lower units, can 100 MPH be far off. Reggies adds state 100 MPH in the 38 Competition Series and I understand that Mitch and Matt were running in the 95 plus range in Marathon.

???? If the course was shortened, then the straights would be shorter as well, which would actually lower average speeds and lap times due to having more of the course as a turn and less as a straight-away. I don't believe that this effects the question of.

It is NOT hard to believe that a Vee can run high 90s. It is however, hard to believe that an F2 can run high 100's. It is also hard to believe that an F2 can have a higher average speed than its 1500 HP sister ship. My F2 with Kevlar, Higher X, No Cabin, etc...is 15 to 20 MPH faster than a pure pleasure boat with the same power, I run neck and neck with my friends 32 Fever with 525SCs. These new F2s are 15 to 20 MPH faster than that! Most people that know me understand what happened and why it is that I hold NO respect for the Fountain factory teams and their racing etiquette, this is not a Fountain question (the boat I mentioned above was a Gladiator)...they build a decent boat, but, I feel bad that you have fallen for Reggie's Propaganda.

The original question was how was it that a F2 can drive by a SCLite? It was added to when the Superboat Vee lap speeds were revealed. I'm not bashing, I'm not accusing...I just want an legitimate answer.

Thats why they only had 20 something boats racing.

Hey BoatGirl...I don't think a PM is necessary (but I can do it if you want;) ).

My question is simple and it really doesn't invlove the races specifically. How can 90+ MPH boats with 500HP engines, rev-limited to 5400 RPM, with stock drives with a 1:50 gear ratio, pick up 10+ MPH? The only way to do this is to get more of the boat out of the water to reduce drag, but this would, in my limited experience, only account for a 2 or 3 MPH difference (and also make the boat hard to control).

The only way that I can see this great of a speed difference would be to use a HUGE prop or have higher RPMs.

Maybe the new boats can spin 36" or higher props, but you are supposed to run stock props and in order to get that size prop for a Bravo, it would have to be worked which is not allowed.

I can't believe no one has an answer...back ttt!

I sent an email to SBI Monday...nothing yet. I was hoping that there were some people out there who might have some inside info. I know that NYSpeedDemon would like to know, there no use beating up your equipment if you have no chance to place. You may as well run a P class.

i guess the only question i have is....what would one do with that information??? if i was a fan i could care less! if i was a racer in that class i would only care what i am doing not what everyone else is....really,, i see no point what so ever...look at the rules of both orgs, investigate the class(s) and chose to race or not race...i would never spend 400k and then ask some people on a dissusion board if i'll be competetive or not....i never saw 1 post from the prez of donzi asking anyone??? do the work yourself if you want answers.

Boatgirl - Unless someone knows the race teams, do you honestly think they would tell someone they don't know...

"oh yeah - I'm running 650hp out of my 500hp!"

I don't think so.

Boatgirl - Did you ever ask DJD or Waterspeed about Reggie's boats in SBI? They raced F-2 and were one of the few teams that were 10000% legit.

Audacity, from seeing your posts for so long, I'm kind of shocked that you would respond in this manner. Sorry it seems like a dumb question to you...and I'm sure that the Prs. of Donzi would LOVE to know what those boats are doing, because if it is legal, it means that it can translate into their everyday designs and give them an advantage.

It also changes everything that people say about cats vs vees. It used to be that HP for HP the cat would spank a Vee everytime. It doesn't seem that way now.

I only spent 250K but I was competitive. I'm not going to race my own stuff anymore, I honestly can't afford it. But if I were still on the curcuit, I can tell you that I do things 100% by the book. The more I read throughout this discussion and others, the more I realize that in all probability, there is a whole bunch of "questionable" activity out there. I love boating and enjoy all the friends I've made on the curcuit, but I have no desire to have any part of that.

Boat Girl, I appreciate the help and once again I already have questioned SBI directly.

I think my question was answered on another thread by DaveP. and it was kind of in line with what I was starting to think anyway.

"Welcome NYSpeeddemon to OSO.

As for motors in SBI......everyone knows I am not a fan of SBI or Mr. C who runs the show.

But, I will tell you in conversation with an SBI racer yesterday, one F-2 Boat in SBI is running 625+ per side and still could not catch the winning boats. SBI also has had a dyno for over a year and they still can't get it / or don't want it to work.

There is nothing wrong with racing with only 20 something boats at a race - at least make sure everyone in every class is evenly matched. Lap times & speeds don't lie."


__________________
NJ Performance Powerboat Club
www.njppc.com

boy's,

first of all you guy's are not looking at the setup. super v boat is larger, weighs more and is turning a speed master six. that's one reason. reason two. in super vee how hard would you run if everbody broke. and how hard can you run when you have a problem.

in super v you only run hard enough to stay in the pack. then at the end you run hard. the problem is nine times out of ten the super vees never finish. you can't run a super vee full throttle for the whole race or you would never finish.

as to the super vee lights, they weight less, carry less fuel, don't have transmissions, running brabos, i could go one. in a few years they will be doing a buck ten.

Treadwell

Hi Eric...

Great points on the SVs... that explains some of the factors that produce slower speeds.

But it doesn't explain the increase speeds for F2. I have either watched you race or raced against you for a few years, I realize that there are certain conditions where a certain boat will have extreme advantages, like a 38' Cig over a 34' Phantom in the big water of Key West. But, do you think that you are capable of keeping up with the Gladiators and the new Fountains in the 2-3 foot chop of Ft. Myers? Can you pass a SCLite in "Cat" water?

Be honest and good luck...I always love watching you race!

Todd Dalton
F2-19 Flirtin' With Disaster

also to set the record straight i am not sticking up for sbi but you guy's never look at the whole picture. with enough time and research you can get speed out of a boat without cheating. not saying the guy's in sbi arn't cheating. but when i got my first formula the best it would do was 79. now it does 90. same boat same power. how was that done. months of testing props, geaar cases, x dimension setup, aerodynamics of the boat, weight, and bottom design, and speed waxes. takes a lot of time and effort but can be done.

Treadwell

Agree on the set up and R&D thing and (no disrespect intended to you or Formula) it is amazing what you were able to do with what is perceived as a very high quality but "slow" hull.

But can you come up with another 20 MPH to be competitive?

rico,
as to your question on the cat's/ again how do you know the guy in the sc lite was running hard.

and your other question. with todays bottoms ( qaud steps and triple steps. if you built a v hull with same power as a cat and had the same weight they would be real close if not identicall. one thing that always made the cats faster that nobody really looked at was weight.

if you remember a few years ago when the outerlimits rocket ran against a few super boats he clobbered them.

Treadwell

Yes he was running hard, GPS was showing 105 when he was passed.

I am currently speaking on the phone with my friend (who was the throttleman in that SCLite Boat) who is at Lake X right testing the SCLite 35' Motion now watching a Gladiator run 100+ in nasty wind.

And yes, I was there when that OL was up and rocking at the World Championships in St. Petes. Man, that thing was amazing, beautiful paint, CRAZY motors...140 MPH I think. Absolutely Bad A$$!!!

"if you are a racer buck up and put up the money for a protest...it seems that people dont really want answers, they just want to stir the pot"....i love it RG! LOL :eek:

i think donzi is on top of things right now....racing/winning is about finding out what others do not know!!! not what others are doing and doing the same!LOL

as usual tread is right on the money!!

RR...fans and racers should be calling you to find out what you do....hell you were only 0.387MPH off the world speed record in standard race form.

Apparently a nerve has been touched, why are you being such an a$$?. Lets be blunt.

I do want answers and don't care to "stir the pot." Congrats to Donzi, they are one of the originals in the sport...but design won't always beat a cheater if that is what is happening.

If what Tread said was on the money (and as I said I agreed with what he said), why didn't you come up with it?

And yes, I was 0.387 off the World Record in standard race form...ON RADAR. THIS WAS NOT A KILO RUN WHERE YOU GET AN AVERAGE SPEED. As a racer that should have been obvious, but instead you try to attack me with an easily defended smart-a$$ comment...why is that? Were you not hugged enough as a kid?

My Kilo Run would probably have been somewhere around around 91 if I were lucky. I saw no reason to beat up my equipment before a race to go out and run a futile kilo.

no,,, you didn't really touch a nerve at all....my funny bone maybe....sorry if you took it the wrong way. and yes, my dad kicked the **** out of me when i was a boy!...

stirring the pot was a quote from river girl not i....and i think if someone was so confident that someone cheated them they would put up the money,,,,not their mouth!

so, really....not to be an ass....why do you want answers....holly smokes....i have an idea,,,,i know how you can get an answer....you front the money for the protest....maybe start a cheaters fund??? you keep 10% for your trouble???

i know i'm a smart ass...but i love to have fun....actually i would be the first to buy ya a drink RR!!! i hope to chat with ya at the races some day!!!!

damn my bad luck!!!!LOL i always get u 2 mixed up...but never the less still a good quote!!!

how r u BG???

Me too! I'll take you up on the drink sometime. I'd love to chat and compare "war stories."

I want an answer only based on principal right now. Tread was the first person to give a reason why the SVs might have had similar lap times. My beast is retired, pleasure only (but one of the faster stock pleasure vees out there:D ), but even after all the time and money at Lake X, anything I can do to make her faster without screwing with the motors is way cool.

BG, as I said twice, I sent an email to SBI directly with no response.

i always do what i say i'm going to do....even if it kills me....so i'm serious about that drink now! you know when and where i'll be so....

war stories....not too many in the arena yet...only and broken nose and face...o,,,and a few stiches too:D

keith said i have to stop bleeding every time i get in the boat. now he wants me to stop busting it up....jeeeeeesh, damn owners what will they ask for next!!!!?

They'll want you to pay to make their boat go!! LOL!! I'll see you soon...work is crazy right now, I'll take that drink in Corpus if I'm not able to accept it sooner!

audacity. First I want to say I was not asking the discussion board of I would be competative. I was just stating facts. Forget lap distance, gear ratios, x dimensions. A 38 ft Fountain with 500's can not run over 100 MPH. It can not run almost the same lap speed average as a Super V Fountain with 750's. The guys in Muscle are not amatures, they are very experienced "Very aggressive" racers. So that leaves out poor driving. Look at the average speeds of past races in SBI and Apba for F-2. It dosen't make sense that the SBI averages are 5 to 6 mph higher in the past race. Remember a 5 to 6 Mph "Lap Average" would have to mean 10 to 12 MPH higher in the straights. It's not likely. Didn't this whole discussion start over Factory-2 V Bottoms Outrunning Sclite Cats with the exact same power packages, in the straights in flat water? IT"S NOT POSSIBLE!

"Remember a 5 to 6 Mph "Lap Average" would have to mean 10 to 12 MPH higher in the straights"....

no it does not...like tread stated previously...a SVLT is a VERY fast boat in a corner.....you could take a faster F2 boat a spank it with a SVLT in a corner...stagered engines and a balast tank. how about not having to run through a #6??...

something eric would say......hmmmmmm.....set-up set-up set-up!

you are only stating the facts???...you say it's not possible on one hand and then you say #'s don't lie??? if an outsider was SO sure someone was cheating....why didn't they guy they beat pony up the $$$$ for the protest....seemed like a no brainer the way it was stated here in this post??? were they the only boat in the class??? who care if they were run'n sc's then??LOL mouth before $$$$,,,or $$$$ before mouth???

the only nerve that gets touched is when someone yells cheater!!!! to the guys beating them....hummmmmm....

dude by no means am i trying to be an ass....i think there is a TON of data left out of this story??? and i always keep an open mind!!!...

audacity. First I want to say I was not asking the discussion board of I would be competative. I was just stating facts. Forget lap distance, gear ratios, x dimensions. A 38 ft Fountain with 500's can not run over 100 MPH. It can not run almost the same lap speed average as a Super V Fountain with 750's. The guys in Muscle are not amatures, they are very experienced "Very aggressive" racers. So that leaves out poor driving. Look at the average speeds of past races in SBI and Apba for F-2. It dosen't make sense that the SBI averages are 5 to 6 mph higher in the past race. Remember a 5 to 6 Mph "Lap Average" would have to mean 10 to 12 MPH higher in the straights. It's not likely. Didn't this whole discussion start over Factory-2 V Bottoms Outrunning Sclite Cats with the exact same power packages, in the straights in flat water? IT"S NOT POSSIBLE!