Yes back on the water...this was 2 1/2 years ago...just sold the boat with these motors in it a month ago. After having another LOCAL builder change out a new block and check specs on the other...been running great with almost 120 hours on them. :coolcowboy:
Never got a dime back on anything...

It sounds like this happened due to rushing and not checking everything first. This is one good reason to run every engine on a dyno. But that was a pretty big issue to miss. At least you got one good motor out of the deal:grinser010: 50% is pretty good in the world of high performace:lolhit::angry-smiley-038:

"Installing into boat, rig one complete, drop the other one in and rig almost complete……I just had to fire the rigged one off just to hear it run. Hooked up hose and was waiting for water to come out of my new exhaust pipes……….No water…WTH….strainer is full….all of a sudden water comes shooting out of the dip stick……"

"Needless to say Bill said it was my fault for having him use junk parts to build my engines……"[/QUOTE]

I can't belive you aren't beyond upset...

We are all on here because we love what we do, and also along with that is the love for our boats.

To hear how your engines turned out in the way it did, just goes against the grain so badly, it's unbelievable to say the least.

I could read how excited you were to fire that motor because you even said it yourself, when you just didn't want to wait until the other motor was all installed.

Thank God you didn't finish rigging both motors to find out they were junk to begin with.

I'm really sorry to hear how difficult this all has been...

"that’s when I find that when the rod broke and trashed the cam and crank it also put a hole in the water jacket below the camshaft..Needless to say Bill said it was my fault for having him use junk parts to build my engines……"

What work had been done on this block after you originally threw the rod? Hot tank, anything? Seems strange that they would have missed this damage given that it's pretty fking common when someone throws a rod.

Something just isn't right here. Smells kinda funny on the surface. I wonder if the other side will answer any of this or will it be one sided? If this were my business, you can sure bet I would be trying to put these fires out. :poopoo::hitfan::eekdrop::eekdrop:

I'm reading through this and I think its unfair Brad is getting beat up. As he admitted, he's an investor in Ateco.

I have never dealt with Ateco but I have heard many times Bill builds some kick ass engines and does have a great reputation.

I do know Brad over 10 years and he was a happy customer of Ateco long before an investor. I will also say he is a very honest guy with high morals.

Some of my investment and business ventures occurred the exact same way. Brad praised Ateco before he was an investor as well as after.
Why shouldn't he?

I feel bad for anyone that has engine problems after they spend their hard earned money for engine work. But before any hangs Ateco, there are a lot of factors that can cause these problems and it is not always as things are perceived as the "whole" story is not always considered.

I have had more boat motors built then most. I have been on the bad end of a lot of dealing with engine builders.

Some situations were out of my control and I got screwed.

Others are not entirely the engine builders fault; it was partially mine for one reason or another.

I'm sure there are stories out there of engine disasters and problems for every engine builder. The difference is some builders have problems consistently and it’s due to not changing parts, cheap parts , crappy work or just ripping off the customer.

Then there are some that build a great engine but there have been instances in the past that the customer felt wronged.

The truth is EVERY performance builder has some customers with stories. Like they say a happy customer may tell 2 or 3 people, an unhappy customer tells everyone.

You can’t imagine the stories I have from SEVERAL major performance builders over the years. I'm talking dropping valves at 2 hrs after a $25k rebuild. Pistons cracking at 3 hours after a complete rebuild. Leaning out the motor and melting pistons under 5 hours.
We are not talking cutting corners, or trying to save money.
These incidents were with the companies considered to be some of the best.

You are dealing with performance engines being used under extreme conditions. Many times there are other factors that cause these "melt downs or Burn ups".

The boats water supply and the plumbing not being set up the same way the engine is set up for it can take out a motor in no time. Almost every time I get my motors back from where ever they were getting rebuilt, i have to change the plumbing around. All it takes is something to be bypassed or run with a splitter rather than direct and your rebuilt engine is junk!

The boats fuel system can be the engines worst enemy. Is it a no.10 or a no.12 hose or fitting coming from the fuel pump? Are the filters tall enough to hold enough capacity?

The octane of the fuel screwed me more times than I can remember. Was it 116 or 112? Was it 93 or was it 89?

The problem is the engine builder build the engine the way they feel is best. If the boat is set up even slightly different then the engine was set up for it could be a disaster in no time.

Then there is the money factor that only the owner and the engine builder know what really happened and is rarely ever admitted.

There are all levels of a rebuild and the level is usually dictated by what the customer wants to spend.
New heads vs used heads; new crank vs turned crank, new lifters, rockers etc or use same stuff that had 300 hours on it?
What was really changed on these rebuilds?

The truth is even if any of these above factors come into play, if there is a failure the customer automatically says “I just spent $$ to have it rebuilt”! I got screwed.

I know in the past before I dropped some of my motors off to get rebuilt I would get over the phone “I'll do them for $15k each as long as they are not blown”.

Once you drop them off Then the phone calls start... The heads can probably be shaved down but "they should be replaced, I recomment changing them for $8k what do you want to do?",
then
"two rods are pitted, do you want to let them go, change the 2 or change the entire set"?

If I don't want to spend the money to change them all and one breaks shortly after the motor is done, who's fault is it?

If I come on here and say "i just got my motor back 2 weeks ago and broke a rod and destroyed the motor and the engine builder told me he’s not warranting it" everyone would say the engine builder is a crook.

Should there be some level of responsibility? The problem is there are two sides to every story.

Like most people in the business they don't personally post on here so you only get the one side of the story. Neither good nor bad you never hear from Peter or Randy, Mike D or Tommy, David Woods or Johnny T.
People in the industry stay off these sites. So not getting a response, is not an admition of guilt.

There are so many thieves and scumbags in this business to talk about and burn at the stake; I really feel Brad taking this beating is unfair.
But what do I know?:drink:

You are correct about problems with hi performance engines. I too have built many engines and had many failures. Back in the early 80's when I was putting blowers on boats, it had not been figured out yet for the marine application. We had head gasket problems, fuel delivery/carb problems, and a host of other issue's you just do not see now that superchargers are everywhere in the marine business.
But we are not talking about engine problems here but customer service problems such as not returning calls and letters, charging for dyno time and not delivering and most importantly, not looking issues straight in the eye and taking care of them. I will never forget being told my $45k 1000hp motor was toast after burning holes in the tops of my pistons or throwing rods through the side of the blocks, but I was told in a fair and honest way what happened and many times no blame could be assigned, it just comes with the territory. If you are going to play if this sport, you better be ready to have some setbacks. But as a businessman, you must be aware of the art of compromise and be able to meet a angry customer half way. Have you never left an oil plug out or stripped one out on a cheap junky pan. Have you never had a engine blow up right after an oil change. These are all thing I saw happen to the quick oil change place that was located next door to my office for years. Your business is full of areas where customers feel wronged and I would think you have taken care of every issue head on to be the success you are today. This thread is not about Brad, never was, it is about a business he is apparently an investor in. And that business has an obligation to be a good honest vendor who does not ignore customers complaints for 9 months and charge for services not rendered. I am involved in other business's than mine and would never be drug into crap like this. I would simply solve this issues for the better or worse. Give Steve an answer even if he does't like it, refund the money for a dyno pull never made and don't come on here and make fake posts about your business.This owner or some one at his business does post here as shown in the past. Now lets hear form them, because we all know in the absence of information, the human makes up their own and it is never accurate.

I can't imagine there's an 'other side' to this story that can possibly make this right, even if this were only partly true! :eek:

I give you credit bro, I would have been locked up if this had happened to me! :mad:

I haven't been on the site much lately and didn't know about his whole issue until I read this. To me, Brad has taken a beating here. That is why I posted.

There is always two different sides to a story when there is a problem. After being in the middle of many disputes over the years, the one thing I have learned is there are always two sides and your have to openly listen to both to be informed.

I know it is hard to see a friend get a beating in a forum like this, but it is not about Brad at all. I have followed his posts here and while I do not know him personally like you do, I like him as a fellow OSOer. But instead this thread is about a business that needs to respond to issues. It doesn't have to be here, it could be in private, but it should be addressed. Please don't take this thread as a personal assault on your friend, as it is not intended to be. But instead of coming on here and saying he has nothing to do Ateco, he should try and outline their side of these disputes and nip it in the bud.

I have been trying to resolve my situation with ATECO directly and not air dirty laundry on line. Yes there are two sides to every story and it has been drug out for 9 months without any answers. My very few posts have been about not getting replies to email and phone messages. I feel I have been very patient but I am extremely frustrated at this point. That is what causes bad customer relations.
Now brad z has posted about my engine over heating but does not say
why it overheated. It feels like he would like to air this on OSO for everyone to make there own decision on the situation. I'm OK with that too but as I have stated from the beginning in emails and messages - let me know if you require any further information please let me know. So if brad z or ATECO would like to for once to start the dialog they have my phone number and email address. If not then maybe they will reply to me here on OSO - at least reply to me
somewhere!

__________________________________________

#1 - This goes without saying... (Read this thread)

#2 - If I had a 25K motor rebuild that dropped a valve, or cracked a piston etc., etc., I'm gonna be calling the builder and saying WTH??? (What is the alternative? Sitting at home & thinking "Darn it... that was a bummer...")

#3 - Admittedly, I haven't yet had a $25K rebuild done on any of my motors but, if they were done at that price, and someone jacked around my plumbing routes or whatever... I'd be wondering why it was even touched in the first place without asking me in advance. The guys on here getting the $25K rebuilds have surgically clean boats and nothing is left to chance. More than likely they KNOW exactly how to run a motor during the first hours of that motor's life. (even if they did "cook" a motor, I'd think it would be good business to try and give the guy the absolute benefit of doubt, and bend over backwards to help him. Just my opinion there... I know there are engine builder's out there who anticipate that the motors they build might get run hard.

#4 - People usually say negative things if there is an unresolved issue at stake. Not returning phone calls or responding to certified mail, keeping someone in the dark as to the status of a build, and a general lack of good businessmanship would more than likely be considered as an unresolved issue.

#5 - How True...:angry-smiley-038:

After reading this I am really happy with my Merc 6.2's:lolhit: 25k for a rebuild:party-smiley-004: :eek:

When you start to play in the big money, high horse engines, you can have things like a valve problem, score or damage a piston, etc. and it is nobody’s fault, it comes with the territory. You can't go back to the builder and assign fault sometimes. But there can be an answer somewhere between full retail repair and a full warranty claim. I have always joked with my builder about "warranty", but really with a engine making 700, 800 or a 1000hp it is tough to believe you should get a warranty at all. As far rigging is concerned, I use to install all my own engines and rig them, but I found a shop who provides turnkey service. They remove my engines, build them, dyno and then rig and install them. This cost a little more but takes all the problems and arguments out of water lines, fuel lines etc. . That way when we do have issues, the blame can’t be shifted to my rigging. The key to this whole deal is use somebody you know and trust, visit their shop in person and see how they keep their shop. Is it neat and clean or a sloppy mess? I would never ever use a builder who is out of town, but that is just me. I have never built an engine where I didn't visit during the build and personally attend all dyno pulls. I am just curious.

I agree there are always 2 sides to a story...but this hole should have been caught when the block was being bored, line honed, and cam bearings installed.

Mr. LubeJobs, something just doesn't make sense with your post. If you have known Brad Z for 10 + years and you heard of the kick ass engines being built at his shop & such a great reputation he has that you spoke highly of, and you guys are MTI bros ...

With all the problems you speak of having with your high performance engines, done from the best of the best of engine builders, coming in with broken valves & cracked pistons, why would you not have investor Brad Z & ATECO build your motors? You did state that he's got a great reputation,and also those kick ass engines that are being done over there?????

I hear crickets ....

First off I am an engine customer, not a builder. I am on the consumer side. I am basically stating facts that people that do not have performance motors and have not been through lots of rebuilds before may not understand or take into consideration.

The point is there are different factors with every engine failure. I would bet at least 50% of engine failures on newly rebuilt engines are caused by factors outside the engine. Rigging, water issues, fuel issues, abuse, improper break in, etc.
Some are not admitted or understanded by the pissed off engine owner. Some factors are not even realized. We are constantly trying to improve the rigging on the boats for the engine to perform the best is can.

Another factor that happens all the time is the customer insists on saving money and not replacing parts that probably should have been replaced.

The instance when I dropped a valve, the engine builder called and said the heads are tired and should be replaced. The heads on those particular motors were about $10k a set with the machine work. That is an extra $20k on a 2 engine rebuild.
I told him to fix the old heads and use them.
When the valve dropped, even though i was pissed off that i just had the engines rebuilt, whose fault was it?

Ateco dosen't specialize in engines over 1,000 hp. If i was doing a 700 or 900 I wouldn't hesitate sending it up there.
Also, it's pretty far away. Many of my issues were with companies closer.

As for hearing crickets, i don't sit on OSO waiting to respond to questions. I'm busy making money for my next rebuilds!

Secondly, it's not Brads shop. He was a customer and invested some money in equipment.

No I agree 100%. I can't imagine a builder missing that! My engine builder is a Ga Tech engineer and he is so careful double and triple checking everything to the point redundancy, it is amazing. But you put so much money in the machine work of a block, you can't take any chances like that. If there is a problem like this, all the time honing, decking, boring etc is down the drain. The parts you buy are really just a part of the build. Making them all fit properly is a huge part of the whole process. I am anxious to hear from them how in the word they could have missed this. We do not even let a hairline crack get through, much less a hole. After a engine has had major failure, you make sure the block is good before you start to sink money in it.

If you are heaing crickets you should probably get your hearing checked. How am i supposed to resond before you even post? :rolleyes:

Agreed...

Then it seems like a pretty easy situation to remedy...

All one would have to do is post the fact that they were warned that the build was "AS-IS" and there is no problem...

No one has done that because that was not the case with the guys who spent big $$$ and had big problems.

I know it is easy to attach pictures and/or documents here on OSO, and a simple invoice from Ateco stating any issue with using "used" parts wasn't warranteed, or guaranteed, etc., etc., would help to clarify.

Or, that the parts were "At the end of their useful life" wouldf be helpful too...

Really... there is SOMETHING wrong somewhere if this just keeps going on and on...

I'm working on it...

I was surprised you are still here because you said you were going to do something with your motor...

It is coming...:eek:

Ummm...

Just checked the Ateco Website and this is in the "About Us"
section:

"Our location in Waukegan, IL, places us half-way between Chicago and Milwaukee, WI which is prime territory for high-performance boating and auto racing. Included in our list of custom engines are Honda B-16 Vtec engines, 810HP dirt and asphalt late models as well as marine engines up to 1300HP Poker Run engines. We love the thrill of high performance work, however we are also your “one stop shop” for any machining project or engine rebuild. No job’s too small.

Here's the link:

http://www.atecoengines.com/About.aspx

I think investing in the stock market is a good idea

My hearing is still okay and I appreciate your concern...

The "Crickets" refers to the total lack of response, negative or otherwise, on the part of Ateco, and/or the responsible parties invloved.

One guy waited months, then FLEW to the town Ateco was in, rented a TRUCK to go get his motors, and even after all that, he gave it another go, just to have the problems he is having now, or rather then.

I do want to state publicly that you and I do not know each other personally. It seemed by the comment of "If you are hearing crickets you should probably get your hearing checked..."

Might be perceived as a personal attack. I am thinking it is not.

Please clarify

I can really feel the love on this thread.

Your going to find a dissatisfied customer from every builder. Lots of these problems could of been solved if the customer would of done their due diligence. Get a signed contract/agreement, with stated cost, time to complete, and payment terms. Specify how long it will take and how unexpected cost are going to be resolved. Be professional, treat your engine build like a construction contract. Its extremely important for a customer to state their expectations and goals, or it will be almost impossible for the builder to meet them. And if you don't state your expectations and terms you can expect the builder to complete the project according to their own terms.

To tell you the truth, i didn't even know brad was an investor in Ateco until this issue on OSO. I knew he was a customer and swore by their engines.

Just becuase Brad is a small investors dosen't mean he knows every detail on every deal. I have interest in several businesses but don't get into the day to day dealings.
If you have to be held accountable for a company you inverst in there are a lot of Enron investors that have some explaining to do. :D

Brad had some very fast boats and he was dealing with Ateco as long as i know him.

I actually met Brad back in 2002 when i bought a used set of 900's for my Motion.[/QUOTE]

This thread is spreading like a wild fire with 3667 views and it is time to hear the other side. It takes time to watch your public image and make sure your customers are happy. I advertise 100% customer satisfaction and it is a hard standard to achieve. Do I get taken advantage of with a policy like this? Sure I do, but the overall experience for the majority of my customers is worth the cost associated with dealing with the few dishonest ones out there. The owner or owners of this business should be concerned what the public thinks about their business and you can tell from the number of disclaimers on their web site, they have been through the ringer with more than a few customers. But stand up and call people back, make concessions, do the right thing and admit mistakes if made. I respect someone who would just stand up to mistakes and admit them as opposed to behaving like a small child and attempting to shift blame. Just say "I missed that hole in the block and I was in such a hurry to get it shipped out, I did not do a dyno pull even though I was clearly paid for it". Don't side step it or not return calls or neglect posting here except for fake posts with yourself. State the truth and let the chit fall where it may and you will gain everyone's respect and some people’s business. I find it absolutely ridiculous to read that Aetco does not want to build high hp engines. What pitcher does not want to pitch in the World Series, what quarterback does not want to play in the Super Bowl? To say that, is just plain not selecting your words carefully, thus making you look not truthful. If you have your engines built close to home by someone you know and trust, bully for you. That is the way it should be. I would never sign a contract with my engine builder!! I better trust him more than that or I am using the wrong guy. Do my builds run over on time? Yes sir every damn one of them. Are they done right? You can bet on it. It is not a speed race to build, there is plenty of time left to race later. Would I ever sue my builder? Never needed to and would never consider it.

[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the clarification on the personal attack even though you removed it 1/2 hour later...

Hmmm...

I didn't ask for your life story, I just think it is very bad business practice to drag Vette Steve along for 9 mos and not answer his US mail letters or even his phone calls.

Then, Brad comes to the rescue with the "driver error and can't drive a truck uphill at WOT" as a response.

It sounds like they knew Steve was such a laid back easy going guy, and just probably thought blowing him off being as he is 900 miles away, then he would just GO AWAY !

+1!

Not sure what the real story is..... honestly don't care. But, anyone that relies on OSO for the "truth" or as their main source of information is so out of the loop it's not even funny. ElimiNordic, I know you haven't been around awhile, and seem like a good guy.... but you're wasting your time with these long written posts trying to prove why an enginebuilder coming online to bring out the truth would be a positive thing to do. I believe someone mentioned it before, but most of the big time guys don't go on online forums..... and for good reason.

It sounds like they knew Steve was such a laid back easy going guy, and just probably thought blowing him off being as he is 900 miles away, then he would just GO AWAY ![/QUOTE]


I have a small business to run.

I have a life.

Today I am baby sitting my beautiful granddaughter.

I also have a very good memory.

Surprise to them- I will not be going away.

[/QUOTE]Thanks for the clarification on the personal attack even though you removed it 1/2 hour later...

Hmmm...

I didn't ask for your life story, I just think it is very bad business practice to drag Vette Steve along for 9 mos and not answer his US mail letters or even his phone calls.

Then, Brad comes to the rescue with the "driver error and can't drive a truck uphill at WOT" as a response.

It sounds like they knew Steve was such a laid back easy going guy, and just probably thought blowing him off being as he is 900 miles away, then he would just GO AWAY ![/QUOTE]

I think your picking on the wrong guy. He is just giving his side and his personal dealings with Brad. (you know another side of the story). BTW: you should take the time to hear Ginos life story because its pretty amazing and inspiring. I have no dog in this fight just keep it on track and continue to go after the ones responsible.

+1:party-smiley-004:

Thanks for the clarification on the personal attack even though you removed it 1/2 hour later...

Hmmm...

I didn't ask for your life story, I just think it is very bad business practice to drag Vette Steve along for 9 mos and not answer his US mail letters or even his phone calls.

Then, Brad comes to the rescue with the "driver error and can't drive a truck uphill at WOT" as a response.

It sounds like they knew Steve was such a laid back easy going guy, and just probably thought blowing him off being as he is 900 miles away, then he would just GO AWAY ![/QUOTE]



This might be a personal attack but you sure are a sassy biotch for a newby.

This might be a personal attack but you sure are a sassy biotch for a newby.[/QUOTE]

I appreciate the recognition :)

sassy? No... Just concerned that none of us on here are getting the short end of the stick.

Facts are facts. I'm just helping to air them out.

Why be a hater on me bro?

That explains it.


bobonthis
sunsation96
brian41

Thank you!

I'm out of this discussion. My time is more valuable then trying to have an intelligent discussion with someone that responds with:

Why be a hater on me bro?

Well... Why not keep it light? I thought that was a cute little response to a situation that could easily get heated...

What would that explain? The original problem is still there whether I said" why be a hater bro?" or, the fact I haven't had as much "senority" on here as some of us.

Let's just keep to the fact at hand shall we?:)