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Is This 496 Dyno Pull Legit?

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Old 10-16-2011, 01:57 PM
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Raylar is in business because he can make 550hp with just naturally asperated bolt on parts. Can you do that with a 454MPI or 502MPI? Saying these engines "need" anything is just b/s.
Yes you can, effortlessly and for less money. When you swap an intake, cam, and heads on your 496 you still have cast pistons waiting to explode. You do the same swap on a 502 and you'll have 600+hp with a nice forged rotating assembly.
Fogducker's 454 makes more power running stock heads, stock cam, stock intake, and a used procharger he got cheap. No problems, forged rotator from the factory..
Show me all the guys with shattered pistons on their MAG motors.?
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Old 10-16-2011, 04:24 PM
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Yes you can, effortlessly and for less money. When you swap an intake, cam, and heads on your 496 you still have cast pistons waiting to explode. You do the same swap on a 502 and you'll have 600+hp with a nice forged rotating assembly.
Fogducker's 454 makes more power running stock heads, stock cam, stock intake, and a used procharger he got cheap. No problems, forged rotator from the factory..
Show me all the guys with shattered pistons on their MAG motors.?
So you have never seen detination on anything other than a 496? Water injestion and detination are the numer one killers of all marine engines, no matter what model.

Would I take cast over forged? NEVER, however to call the 496 a bad engine because of cast internals is not accurate. In fact the advanced electronics on the 496 allow it to deal with bad fuel better than a 454/502 which cannot retard the timing far enough to compensate. Add a smart craft systems to a 496 (you cant to the older engines) and you are damn near bulletproof.

I know first hand one can be done with a standard forged BBC and some parts or boost, not what I am talking about. The constant bashing of a 496 is what bothers me. To say it is a pile of junk, crap, cast garbage blah blah blah and basing that on only what is READ on a forum is nonsense. There is nothing wrong with that engine, in fact a stock 496HO MAG will out perform the old black engines.
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Old 10-16-2011, 06:00 PM
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in fact a stock 496HO MAG will out perform the old black engines.
This may, or may not be true, but in fact, the 496 will surely be the first to explode!

I know this thread has veered slightly off course a bit and has focused more on how crappy the 496 lower end is as opposed to its predecessors the 454/502mag mpi. Granted, those engines had a virtually indestructible bottom for a factory stock engine and have proven to be tried and true. Its unfortunate GM discontinued them. Like all things, money must have played a part, or the frickin EPA. Does anybody know the real story?

Anyway, still havenít heard anything from the actual guys who are currently running either of these products in the video. Would be nice to here how pleased they are, or if they could do it over, what changes they would have made.

Letís talk a little about the exhaust system, what do you think about the Danas, or what exhaust are you running and how you like your setup?
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Old 10-16-2011, 06:37 PM
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This may, or may not be true, but in fact, the 496 will surely be the first to explode!

I know this thread has veered slightly off course a bit and has focused more on how crappy the 496 lower end is as opposed to its predecessors the 454/502mag mpi. Granted, those engines had a virtually indestructible bottom for a factory stock engine and have proven to be tried and true. Its unfortunate GM discontinued them. Like all things, money must have played a part, or the frickin EPA. Does anybody know the real story?

Anyway, still havenít heard anything from the actual guys who are currently running either of these products in the video. Would be nice to here how pleased they are, or if they could do it over, what changes they would have made.

Letís talk a little about the exhaust system, what do you think about the Danas, or what exhaust are you running and how you like your setup?
I can answer both your questions about Dana and Raylar.

I have the Dana's with the 105 long risers on my 496's and they are an easy bolt on and I like the internal "runnered" design. They are like headers inside a manifold. If you want pictures just let me know.

I had them on my 496's originally and now used them again when I rebuilt them. They are now Raylar HO 600's with all forged internals. They dynoed with dyno headers at 640 HP/TQ. I assume the Dana's are probably giving me more TQ than the dyno headers but they are infact pretty far north of 600HP.

Raylar is a good guy. He is a straight shooter. Once I was engaged and building my engines he was a really helpful guy. Do yourself a favor and send him you engines to be rebuilt. Once you start a rebuild not many people can answer questions on the 496 platform. Once you look at the cost of machining and assembly its the same price as Rays rebuild.
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Old 10-16-2011, 07:04 PM
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When a customer comes in to start an engine build from scratch the 8.1 block is never even an option.When they come in with a 8.1 and want more power I always suggest they sell it as a complete package (makes a good down payment) and build the proven old school GM big blocks or aftermarket blocks giving them countless options/combinations to go with.

Do I have experience with building and installing Raylar kits? Yes I do. Have I dynoed any Raylar kits? Yes I have. Does Ray make a good product? Yes he does. Does Ray's kits do what they say they will do? Without a doubt.That being said the only way I would build another is with his complete 600+ kit.

As far as exhaust goes we sell CMI and have had VERY good luck with them only seeing leaks in 1 set of headers that had dinosaur footprints on them.
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Old 10-17-2011, 01:33 AM
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If you want pictures just let me know.
Keith, yes by all means please post the pictures. I for one, along with many others would like to see your installed Raylar 600s with the Danas.

Looking forward to seeing them, thanks.
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Old 10-17-2011, 01:48 AM
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Just picked up on this thread , so I thought I would answer this nearly first time OSO poster with factual answers to his questions.
The dyno pull in question was made at an independant dyno shop, HP Dyno in San Diego back in I believe was 2007 at the request of Dana Marine products, testing a stock 496Mag and a stock 496HO engine that Dana Marine supplied along with their Flo-Torque 496 kit ehaust header manifolds. Raylar worked with Dana Marine to put together a complete header manifold kit that would bolt on to a Merc 496 base engine along with its special brackets and fittings.
Dana Marine brought a video maker along to the testing and recorded a video at the testing session with my commentary on their exhaust kit product points and results discussed.
I personally confirmed that both engines were exact stock Merc 496 base untouched engines with stock ECM programs.
Each engine was placed on Jim's calibrated DTS2500 dyno, both using standard 89 octane fuel from a station down the street and each dyno tested with stock exhaust and then each tested with the new Dana Flo-torque kit exhausts installed and the results recorded and were calculated with proper correction factors, temperature and altitude adjustments, speciific fuel gravity tested and adjusted, as well as being tested in full stock engine trim with all acessories connected and running.
This dyno test session video has been shown for many years on Dana's website and on video copies given to interested Dana exhaust customers.
The results of these two test were done as independant and rfactual and similar tests have been run in our industry by others who I believe have reproduced the similar results many times.
I guess I am not sure of the question or meaning of the original post here, but I can assure based on our tests and in later in boat findings that the horsepower and torque increases shown in these tests were as accurate as any done in our industry.
If you are asking whether the Dana headers produce the power shown in thse tests I can say most certainly yes in Raylars and others testing. I believe Dana has sold a lot of these kits for Merc 496's and from the feedback I have received these headers have performed very well as a great power upgrade for stock and modified MERC 496'S.

As for our Raylar 496 kits they speak for themselves. Raylar has sold since 2003 over 500 of our 496 BCK103 engine kits and most all are still out there running strong. Are the stock GM stock Merc 496 engines the perfect base engine, no there are no perfect stock marine engines. thats why Mercury and others always offer stock engine warranties. I have seen and heard of new stock 496's break, new 454 and 502 carburated and efi forged internal engines break as well as hand blueprinted all forged internal Merc and other manufacturers engines break in marine use after only a few hours of initial useover the last 20 years. These failures are always unfortunate but they tend to be in small percentages and always get way more "press" than the sucesses!
The opinions of some in the forums and industry that the GM 8.1L Marine base engine used for the Merc. 496 engine family is weak and flawed, I very much strongly disagree and the over 40,000 or so units out there operating in boats all over the world in the last eleven years support this fact perfectly . I can also state as a fact that there are stock block Merc 496's with Raylar kits out there operating great after as many as 7-8 years use, some with over 700 hours of performance boat use and many of our special built higher horsepower 496's out there running long and hard.
I will reinterate here as I have in the past that there are many fuel system, cooling system, lubrication and maintenance issues which are the root cause of more damage and failure on parts in many marine engines and especially in higher performance marine engines than actually occur from the simple singular failure of the part itself.
This is sometimes the problem with the internet and forums, sometimes a few misinformed experts bash engines and parts without the real facts and knowledge of the actual full industry exposure and expierence with the engine and applications.
When it comes to the GM 8.1L -496 marine engine I and most others in the industry would consider Raylar one of the foremost experts in this engine, its parts, systems, upgrades and applications and buildup possibilities. As such I can say this is a great engine very worthy of its great reputation of being one of the most successful and reliable big block GM marinized engine ever offered!

Again, just the facts.

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

Last edited by Raylar; 10-17-2011 at 01:52 AM.
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Old 10-17-2011, 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by FogduckerIII View Post
Search here for 496, seems to me there are more "issues" with these engines then other BBC.....the Guardian system, I believe that is the term, gives many owners headaches, on top of that, again, IMHO, Raylar is in business because the engines "need" upgrades.....bottom line, I have heard of more bad opinions about the engines then good......they were a "one off".....and I don't believe will be made again.
All the current production Merc engines have a guardian system. The guardian system can cause problems, but they can also save the engine, which is what they are designed to do.

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Originally Posted by HaxbySpeed View Post
Yes you can, effortlessly and for less money. When you swap an intake, cam, and heads on your 496 you still have cast pistons waiting to explode. You do the same swap on a 502 and you'll have 600+hp with a nice forged rotating assembly.
Fogducker's 454 makes more power running stock heads, stock cam, stock intake, and a used procharger he got cheap. No problems, forged rotator from the factory..
Show me all the guys with shattered pistons on their MAG motors.?
The 496's have hypereutectic pistons. Better than regular cast, but not as good as forged.
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Old 10-17-2011, 07:52 AM
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I can answer both your questions about Dana and Raylar.

I have the Dana's with the 105 long risers on my 496's and they are an easy bolt on and I like the internal "runnered" design. They are like headers inside a manifold. If you want pictures just let me know.

I had them on my 496's originally and now used them again when I rebuilt them. They are now Raylar HO 600's with all forged internals. They dynoed with dyno headers at 640 HP/TQ. I assume the Dana's are probably giving me more TQ than the dyno headers but they are infact pretty far north of 600HP.

Raylar is a good guy. He is a straight shooter. Once I was engaged and building my engines he was a really helpful guy. Do yourself a favor and send him you engines to be rebuilt. Once you start a rebuild not many people can answer questions on the 496 platform. Once you look at the cost of machining and assembly its the same price as Rays rebuild.
Can you share the on the water performance numbers before and after the upgrade?
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Old 10-17-2011, 08:36 AM
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Just a heads up before you plunk down big $ for an exhaust upgrade on a stock 496. I paid $4,600 for CMI sport tubes for my 496 HO and saw absolutely zero gain in performance. I can't explain why the increase apparently shows up on the dyno but not on the water. Some people do report an increase on 1-2 mph. I saw nothing other than a big jump in my credit card balance. That 496 has since been shipped to Germany (good riddance) and a HP525 EFI now resides under the hatch . That's MY experience with the 496.....
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