Poker Run Orgs/ Boat Builders need YOUR input.
 

In Sarasota over the weekend I was informed of a "focus group" of Poker Run organizers and other marine industry icons that was for the purpose of helping the events and industry rebound.
Present at the meeting were several builders, dealers, service providers and the assorted poker run organizers. The forum was to be an open discussion.
Upon learning of this I self-invited(crashed) the event and took LOTS of notes, even took the floor a few times. :eek::party-smiley-004:
Many, many valid ideas and points were discussed. The results may, or may not, trickle down to the boating world.
I will post a FEW of the many ideas and would appreciate any expansion on them. Please feel free to add any of your own and discuss.
I assure you I WILL pass along what is brought to light here.

The possible ideas:
1) Possible a-la-carte pricing for events. Such as locals that just want to participate in a large event having the option to pay just for run entry seperate from any fun-runs or event activities designed to provide a full weekend for out of town attendees.
2) Possible "one price" models for events so that entry includes the boat whether is has 2 or 10 occupants. No more $100++ for each additional rider etc. The thought is to encourage attendees to bring non owners into the lifestyle without sticker shock.
3) Outside entertainment or options that can include the local population to enhance participation of non-performance boaters. Concerts, street parties, parades, etc.
4) LOWER overall costs are an obvious help. It's certainly an issue and the ideas vary on how to make it work while keeping the event solvent.

5) The most important in my estimation:
Possible seperate card stops for different levels of performance, or non-performance, boats. This would be done as possible shorter courses for slower groups on one part of the waterway and longer legs for FAST boats on another part. That would be arranged for a likely completion at similar times for a lunch, or ending spot, that would allow everyone to be together again. This would hopefully stop the "intimidation" participants mention when the fastest boats traverse throught the same waters as other entrants.
6) The main thing everyone agreed on is the events need to be FUN. If the solution is a beach party, a concert, or anything else, the result needs to be the return of FUN.

The builders and service people all made the point that the poker run events will only grow as the industry recovers. The builders can't help the events much as they all have their own problems. This means each side is working to help the other but it will take a TEAM effort to help in any tangible way. All sides agreed that the ENTRY level boater needs to be courted, encouraged and catered to as much as the guys on their 5th $1M boat.

Please feel free to add anything you feel is relevant. Any ideas will be forwarded to the attendees. That's a promise.

Also, I attended this on my own, unofficially obviously, to get an outside perspective as I don't build, service or make my living in any way from the industry. Please go easy on my posts and opinions as my goal was to report all and help in anyway I can.

Thanks
Greg

good post Gregg

Lots to add just do not have time right now

I Hope the sport grows back

All ideas will be considered. Thinking outside the normal channels may save the sport we love.

7) free booze and hookers would get peoples attention...

I love this idea Gregg and I am glad you sat in on the meeting!

I love the idea of either different stops, shorter courses, and or different brackets in a poker run. It has worked very well for our club (NJPPC) to have a 60mph group that caters to the CC's, cruisers and smaller boats. I ran that all the time in my 29' Kryptonite to not be left behind and not beat the heck out of my equipment and crew. Also, NJPPC has a Blackjack run specifically for all boats under 30' and an "el cheapo" for $199 that is a bay run around with a bbq at night.

My biggest gripe isn't so much about the cost, it is what you get for your money. I have no problem paying $1000 or more if it includes a nice hotel, docking for the weekend, entry fee, lunch and dinner. I do have a problem with extra lunch/dinner tickets costing $50-70 and only getting a stale sandwich or fast food quality buffets.

I love the hoopla around 1000 Islands with all spectators and party feel to the whole town. I have missed the run for three years now but I am itching to go back because of the atmosphere.

I like the idea of ala cart as well, but it is hard to keep track of who gets what and where. As long as it is done simple it could work, maybe something like this:

Entry Fee: Includes Lunch and Awards.
Hotel: Choose from these 3 or 4 (Varying prices) or none (live local)
Slip: Yes/No (again live local)
Extras: more hands, more people, discounts from local restraunts and bars, etc.

The last thing that wasn't mentioned is the over saturation of events. Every weekend in the summer has an event or 10. I am many times forced to give up one run to run another. I don't want to do a run the week before another run I already pre-paid a good amount of money for. Also, it is hard to take enough time off to trailer to and from so many events. I have what is considered a high end boat but I am running it on a Budweiser budget. I can't afford to have it shipped all over the place and I can't afford to take that much time off every other weekend to tow it around.
It is hard to figure out which ones I should try to go out of my way to do.
The last part about the over saturation concerns the organizations themselves. I am specifically referring to two in particular (I have run with both, think highly of both Presidents, and will continue to run with both). Stepping on each other, adding runs that conflict, etc. will NOT help this sport of ours. I would think in this economy it would make more sense for all to work together, consolidate the runs each club does, and enhance them to bring up the boat count. Less events with better boat count should equal more profit then the other way around.

I love this sport and lifestyle, will never leave it, and know there are enough people who feel the same way. Things may change and evolve but just like offshore racing, it will still be here. Even if the clubs we know change or disappear, there are enough of us who want to keep doing this and will make things happen one way or another.

I am sure that if God allows, I will eventually be living a life like Bob the Builder!
:drink:

Good post and thread buddy. I will comment after dinner.
(PS; You need to get a boat). :)

:coolcowboy:

Jacksonville PR is one of the best events I have attended. It has quite a few highlights:
1. Central location to multiple states
2. Excellent dockage/truck + trailer storage (ramp isn't real convienent though)
3. Friday night party/food + beer included/ Saturday breakfast also included in addition to Saturday dinner (buffet but remember it is there to serve a lot of people)
4. Reasonable PR fee and Jacksonville Landing is right in the center of everything/offers plenty for all. Hotels are $200 a night or less
5. T-shirts/goody-sponsors bag/video/dockage/parking all included

If the Pyburn family can get a run like this organized as a annual charity run, there is no reason a poker run company couldn't do the same.

PR companies have lost a lot of advertisers (boat dealers, manufacturers, parts dealers etc) so unfortunately the events got real expensive and didn't seem to be as much fun anymore. PR's are a major source of sales for all boat companies so it would be in their best interest to make them popular again. Manufacturers like Nortech had seen their sales explode in the last decade coincidentally with the popularity of poker runs. Dealers like Fastboats used to be huge at every FPC event, seems like 1/2 the trucks/trailers had fastboats.com stickers on them.

Gregg, great thread and I will chime in later. I am curious who was in attendance and what were everyones thoughts after the meeting? Who was the organizer? Thanks

Great Chuck, I will watch for your post.

I am not sure I should mention WHO was necessarily there, but since it was a PRA event in the same area, on the same weekend, one ORG may be obvious.

There were at least 4 current builders present, one former CEO of multiple companies, 3-4 service and/or PR concierge companies, 2-3 PR orgs and one PR rep from Bermuda. Various assistants and one film crew. All told about 20 people present and at least one uninvited guest. :party-smiley-004:

What he said..

Lower the size requirement and let them run separately...

The dual routes for faster/slower boats has been in use by a few organizations in the past.
What I like is staggered starts with the slower boats getting a good head start. If given time to go ahead and get spread out they get to see the fast boats come up through them and arrive at the same stop for lunch etc.

That allows them to feel included in the event and see the headliners and not feel like they are in a completely seperate event.

It also spurs the wishlist/dream of moving up which the builders and dealers should like.

Specifically to PRA.............they never/rarely follow up with their events on social media including here.
Always very limited coverage from them which is a mistake.

As many people or more that DONT get to an event as opposed to who actually went want to hear/see all about it.

LOTO Flight Club Jacksonville Lake Cumberland Destin are always followed by huge amounts of pics from the organizers.
Go look at the activity on here from PRAs official rep POKERRUN2000........miniscual posts and never pics.

Getting your moneys worth.............should it be a surprise at 1000 Island event that there is no dinner , awards banquet as in every year past ??!!

There should always be a charity component in these events. If not arranged by the organizer , the card stops and lunch stop should have a local charity allowed to participate somehow so that the big show of power etc. should be used to generate something for the local community .

I have been to many events where a specific stop had a local charity use the event to sell hot dogs to the neighbourhood to " come see...take pics...hear the sound..watch an organized start of the next leg....to raise money.

I have also seen with communication with the organizers where the locals get to walk the docks and chat with and ask questions of the participants in an organized specific time slot .
This meet and greet allows for questions to be asked and pics taken with the boaters, rather than wandering the docks taking pics of covered boats and no pokerrunners in site.
This interaction promotes acceptance of the poorly thought of noisey boats and allows the public to discover that not everyone that owns one of these toys is a dicck.

Organized mechanical support by the local marina/dealers would be nice also.
Have been to lots of events where after their Friday night toot , a participant is still tied at the dock on Saturday because something that could have been easily fixed, isnt , because he is from out of town and couldnt arrange it.

Just a few points.

Keep them coming.

Alec, at Boyne Thunder we have been do'n the above! Same course but smaller slower boats go 1st!! I think it has been decent! Gets them into lunch alot better than an all start!

I'm a new boat owner and I would like to do some poker runs next year, and after you brought this up, I will say for me it's price. I would like to see one amount for your boat. I know these things cost money to host but if you lower the entry fee, you get more participation in turn the same amount of money. If all else fails lower the payout. I don't imagine that anyone does this for the payout, people do it because we love boating and hanging out with people with similar interest and in some cases for a good cause. I can tell you that I feel 400-600+ entry fee is more than I think it is worth to do one. I also like the idea of a seperate meeting for first timers.

Comment:

1. Having a street fair exhibit of boats/vendors/ of like and kind booths... is a must! In Havasu the Desert Storm... Street Parade/Fair is attended by thousands.

2. Prizes also need to be given to each class rather than grouped into one big lump jackpot.

A. Groups could be done by length or combination length and type of hull. For example Hi-Output Cats in one group by length and Hi-Output....A,B, C, and so forth. V-Bottoms in another also by length and Power Output.

3. Preface: No one runs all the card stops anymore. Once the first card stop is done... no one else runs the other stops. I highly suggest an incentive at each card stop so each participant feels that he/she still has a chance at a prize. I don't mean some small token something like next years registration for free or half off. Picked up only at the card stops in random envelopes...etc.

4. There is also the need to keep the event cohesive and not have fragmented groups. Photo sessions by group and nice lunches really build the social aspects of Poker Running by keeping everyone together. Breakfast for drivers meeting, lunch, and evening dinner.

5. Every effort should be made to include first timers. I considered several long distance Poker Runs but I was too apprehensive about making the journey with little to no information. So how do you solve it?....set up a seasoned local person as a host. They would then help a first time participant upon arrival docking, where to stay etc... Every paticipant matters as the bigger the draw the more clout it will have locally and with sponsors.

This would be a nice working model to begin with, but I doubt anyone is listening. The organizers are overwhelmed with bureaucratic red tape [permits] and set-up work. They get little if any appreciation... so they do what they can to get by with the limited resources they have if one or two of these ideas is adopted it's a start.

KAP

Many good points have been posted. Here are a few points of my own and just my .02.
Long ago Poker Runs were pretty much for showing off new models, and for a bunch of boaters to get together for a good time. This ideology has changed. Some of the reason is that Poker Runs became a profit generating business; therefore they cater to the big boys and guys with deep pockets. Countless time I had great vid or chopper coverage and at the end of the day, the CD had me for 5 seconds, even when I paid extra for the coverage. This suxs.
In my thoughts, Poker Runs needs to go back to it's origins. To have fun with a bunch of other boaters.
A) It is a Poker Run so if you don't pick up your cards, or make arrangements if you have a crash box etc. to be near to the pick up spot, You’re out that card. Many local companies make a point to help, and when some of the hot shots just race to the bridge or to lunch stop, the whole concept is doomed to fail and hurt the local "helpers".
B) Include as much as local participation is a big plus. Make plans for "non boaters" to see or be around the hardware.
C) I have mixed feeling with the slow VS fast starts. If the slower guys start first, I can see some safety issues when the fast guys "blow" by. Some runs starts the faster group first. Then the chopper chases the fast group and never gets back to the "other" group. It's a run not a race. I suggest keep the group together, at least to the lunch stop and after lunch or after the last stop if they want to hit it, then if seas and circumstance allow, the by all means go for it. This will allow for vid and pix coverage and everyone "runs" together for a while, and no "group" separation. I always thought running together was a great thing, but many Poker Runs the groups separate and of course a lot of the smaller or slower guys don't even want to attend.
D) Raft up. Absofrakinglutely. IE: Destin, the day before, a great venue to meet and have fun. Par of the event. A must.
E) Funding/sponsors. Let's face it the PR circuit is diminishing. Sponsors need a reason to spend (whatever they spend) to market their products. If the attendance is low, sponsors will go. Attendance need to be increased; I guess this the 64K question, but if the runs are more fun and less bottom line $ driven boaters will run. Charity stuff is great, but when charities get screwed, (which is a total different topic) then attendance will suffer. And it does now.
F) It's not a race, it's a run or an event. Well we heard this a thousand times, but let's face it. We all have a little Arranow, Mario Andreti, or Richard Patty gene in our blood so yup, competition is a good and fun thing. I will be the first to admit that I always scope out a few boat before the run. See whom I can run with, who might be a tad faster with in the same length and HP, etc. It's part of the fun and the adrenalin rush for the next day. I "brief" my crew what boat to look for, what boat we will try to pass, run against, run with, etc. It's a fun and competitive thing. I now my place, and I won't try to run with Gold Rush or Ginos Merc Boat, but with a bunch of others, the game is on. So be it, it's for fun. However, The Runs getting pretty boring, when the Poker playing is all deep pocket related and not chance or the fun of "gambling". It is after all a "POKER RUN". so let's make it more interesting. You don't go to the card stop, you don't get a card. But... if you want to "show off what you brung and hit it"? great, after lunch or after the last card stop... the fastest boat forfeit a card and gets a card from a deck that's all 2's and 3's with one Ace. The last or slowest boat forfeit a card and gets a card from a deck that's all face card and one deuce. Just for the hell of it. Make these things more fun.
G) Entry fees. I don't think the fees are a big issue. You run a bunch of events, of course. But we need new attendees, but with the fee, you better get what you pay for. Pix, vid coverage and a good time. Countless times I see the same boats/people on the CD's so the newbie’s are gone.
In a nut shell... the organizers have to make these events fun oriented again.

I saw this event was happening and thought of crashing as well but came down with something after a long night Thursday.

I hoped to gain some insite on how the industry/organizers may look at it from a "poor man that was definitely affected by the economy (ok, maybe more affected by the 2 women that took everything I owned over a 4 year period) but clawing his way back up" standpoint.

I walked the docks at the FPC run in St Pete again this year and saw some beautiful equipment. Went down to the Skyway fishing pier after the start in time to catch the extremely fast coming back from Egmont then the really fast soon behind. Paradox makes a good point with running together, perhaps behind a pace boat for the first part of the run. Another option may be a poker run that everyone feels comfortable running in followed by a shootout of some sorts for those who want to participate. I for one would enjoy sitting back as a spectator for something like that.

I spoke with Stu some at the Tampa Boat Show and I know he is considering options for cruisers, cc's and more affordable boats.

I know West Central Florida has many options to make an event similar to Destin. I have yet to attend Destin but from the pics and posts I have read it is definitely one event I'm giving serious consideration to once I rebuild my empire!!!

My biggest gripe is the actual poker playing. When i first got into this type of stuff we got cards at each stop in a brown envelope, it was pure luck, and alot of fun to sit around and open cards... now its a matter of who wants to spend the most money.. You get to play 4 hands, during each hand you can buy up to 4 extra cards, 5$, 10$, 15$, 20$. So each hand to be competive i need to spend an extra 50$, x 4 hands, were talking about $200.00 more. On top of that, at Emerald coast, after you spend the extra 200$, all it does is put you in the winners table with 10 other guys (assuming you beat out the other 150 people) who spent 200$ to buy the best cards, and now you have to do it all over again and spend 3x as much at the winners table

it just isnt fun anymore, its expensive... fun was drawing cards at each stop, not having a clue what i had, and sitting around a table with a bunch of guys who had no financial advantage, just luck, drinking a beer, and watching everyone open


paying 75-100$ for each extra person also pisses me off. i usually have a crew of 6-8 people, who all came from out of town, on planes, stay in hotels, etc... paying 100$ per extra person, for a buffet is crap

:evilb: agreed.

Good Point Boomer!

I was holding a second place hand after all the cards were in and the President of the club decided they were not good enough to win (didn't sell enough hands) and re-opened the buying of hands for 15 minutes. Needless to say I got bumped out of second to nothing!
It was a big event too and I would have made out pretty well!

I have no problem if people want to pre-buy extra hands BEFORE the run starts but not after you start opening!

Passing along everything said here. Please keep the thoughts coming.

Also, this is about the BUILDERS, too. Let them know your thoughts besides "boats are too expensive".

Thanks

the 2011 tickfaw 200 we didnt not ask for any money from venders . if they wanted to then fine, just asked to bring people and buy hands. also anyone could come to the friday night party and the party after the run for free. 5 stops had food for lunch. (buy your own were you would like) Had a gator drop all the money was given back, not a doller kept from the pot ($500). pay out of the run was upped with every extra card and the limit was 2 extra.(limit bought hands)

boat builders ill hang, give out what what ever they want. they can come set up a display in the marina. what ever they need as long as they come

http://www.bloodrivermarina.com

Good to hear from you Casey.

hey, we weren't invited!

Sorry, Jackie. I did not make the list of invitees myself. I just walked in like I owned the place. LOL.

Me either !! Or a whole lot of others! :)

You were a topic used as a GREAT example. :drink:

Hmmm. Might be an idea to get event organizers and and other stakeholders from around the country in a conference room at the time of the Miami Boat Show, Gregg. They have done that in the past to address safety issues with considerable success. There have been a lot of good ideas brought forward in this thread that can form a basis for discussion. Participant input here can play a valuable part in helping organizers understand better what offshore boating enthusiasts are looking for. Thank you for taking the initiative on this.

Bob

Chairman, Ft Myers Offshore

Wonder why? :party-smiley-004:

Can't wait for Key West! The REAL poker run party!

At the LOTO Shootout, one of the best events was the parade down to the strip, and then the street party. Everybody that I could see had a blast, spectators could see the boats up close and personal, and they could talk "boats" with the drivers and crews. I would think that many manufacturers (both boat and accessory) would like this as they could actually engage in conversation with folks on a personal basis. You also have to remember that many wannabe boaters do not have a boat, so this would expose them to our sport without them having to be on the water. Most of them have only seen these boats while going 75 down the highway.

Oh yea, the Street Party was several hours long and nobody blew a motor, broke a drive, spent hundreds on gas, gashed new paint on a dock, or found themselves broken down on the water.

I would definitely be more likely to attend an even that had a Street Party before.

I wrote and posted this a few years ago

"Moving forward I think (I have written this before) that nowadays runs should be EVENTS that are including a boat race , a car show, charity auction, concert, ect.... It is harder to provide value and still get a great turn out so make it a bigger event for a bigger bunch of people and oh by the way a poker run breaks out in the middle of the weekend LOL

We were one of the first (Not the only one) who started doing our event (Smoke On The Water) for charity (Make a wish) many followed our lead and NJCCP's lead

We were not a 501c3 yet we were the largest single outside contributor to Make a wish of Michigan

The first two years of our event my partner Bob and I lost $10,000 of our own money
Had we run it as a 501c3 the kids would have been less that money

By the third year we started to make a modest profit and we stuck what few extra bucks we got back into the event to make it better. The amount of time and work that goes into this is unbelievable

FPC has been a for profit organization for years and no one does it better than Stu. It is his business and why should he not make money for all his work? He is, by the way, much of the reason all the little poker runs have turned up all over the country these many years to make many $$ for charity.

I am always amazed by those who say poker runs should be ALL for charity. It is kind of like saying all NASCAR events should be free They run car races for charity but they also run them for profit.

If you want to run only runs that benefit charity and do not want the people who put them on to benefit one dime, then go ahead and only attend those events. Better yet put one on yourself and give all your time and money to make it happen! Do not put down the few groups that do it for profit as they are the reason offshore poker runs exists in the first place

I believe in the charity program (we were on the cutting edge of this idea) but I think every person that says "Last thing I want in a poker run is a payback" should quit wasting the money they could give to charity on gas for their boats, and vow to just send their boat spending money to a charity and stay home.
Why do you have to attend an event to donate your money? Go boating in your home lake and then at the end of the day send a check to a charity. Why do you have to have people work their butts off to put on an event so your money can be given to charity ? Basically you want something for your charity (money, a run, an event, food , prizes) but you do not want the organizers to benefit?

Again I DO believe in events run strictly for charity, but I also believe we should not put down those who put on events for profit (my 45 cents worth) If you only want to attend charity events then great, but do not forget who paved the road for you to run in these events "

Let me also say there should be some rules for attendees

1) Do not sign up to run the event the last minute!!! Many wonder why the organization ran out of food and t-shirts yet they did not enter until the week before the event. Help the promotors figure out what they need prior to the run by signing up early
Organizers need to have some idea who is coming so they can plan for food, launch, dock space, blocking out rooms (paid by attendees but reserved by the organization) and t-shirts and other assundries

2) Do not expect preferential dock space just because you have a cool boat (they are all cool)

3) Stop adding up the cost of the event for the organizers in your head and trying to figure out if the promoters are making money or not. You don't want to be there, then do not come.

4) Obey the rules (both event and local waterways) most events promoters have to go through a ton of approvals and permits with local governments. Give them a break, they have to answer all the questions to the local officials long after you have gone home.

5) Make sure your credit card or checking account has enough balance on it for your weekend fun. Many promoters end up chasing refused CC payments after the event and have a hard time getting attendees to pay up after the event is over (this is getting better with immediate CC approvals or denials by the cc company's)

6) If the event is helping a charity then get involved, do not complain that an event needs to be done for a charity, and when it is, then you do not contribute or help with rides or other activities during the event that help the participating charity

7) Do not park your BIG RIG in the middle of the road and expect everyone in town to drive around you while you register for the event across the street

8) Do not walk the city with open receptacles (alcohol) unless you are in Key West. Most cities do not allow alcohol while walking the streets

9) Respect the town and its people you are visiting as you may be there 2 or 3 days but they live there year round

10) Go easy on the promoters and their staff. Whether they are run for profit, or for a charity, the work is immense and the payback is not nearly what it cost in time and grief

Again we were one of the leaders in having a charity event (Smoke On The Water Poker Run) but it should not matter whether it is for profit or not. Pick the events that you like and go have fun and stop picking on the guys and girls that are providing you the venue to have an event

Great points re the responsibilities of the attendees and the courtesy towards the organizers.

After working with Bill Taylor and his APRA Safety Meetings I wouldn't waste one second of my time working with him again. Period.

I'm not going to trash him publically on here but those who were involved with that group know why I feel this way.

Dave Patnaude
President
NJ Performance Powerboat Club

Good thread...
 

Yes, I wanted to attend the meeting.... However scheduling an "important" meeting before, during or right after a large boat show will not work for boat manufacturers. This is why you didn't see more builders at the meeting... I barely get to sleep in the month of October, let alone find an extra weekend to drive to Sarasota...

There are many valid points presented here, from both sides. I'm sure we would all appreciate Stu and Jackies viewpoint as well.

We are signed up for FPC Key West as a sponsor. We are running our new 399, and also have a trailer display spot in the village. This is not an inexpensive event for us. Between staff, lodging, food, transport, boat, dockage, etc....this is big $ for us. That said, we are excited to be going and looking forward to it. Stu and Jackie always do a great job organizing and running their events.
But, when I come back to the factory after the event, and the checking account balances out, I need to have a honest justification for spending the money. Did we sell a boat because of the event??? It becomes harder and harder for us to justify the expense. This has been the case for years...
I do understand that our sponsorship is important to the promoter, and their ability to provide a good event, but it can't be a "donation" on our (all sponsors) part.
Promoters always give me the "such an opportunity" speech when trying to get us to be involved...
So, I tried a different approach to them.... None of which accepted.... You say it's a great opportunity for success? ... You want $5,000? How about this.... I'll pay $1000. You give me free reign to promote our boats... And If I sell a boat from the event.... I'll send you $10k.... This is playing your cards, right? :) None have taken me up on the offer....

We also make our decision to sponsor based on the entries. I have been given grossly incorrect boat entry counts by promoters...as "bait"...
I sponsored one recent event that wound up costing me $400 per boat entered! I would have got more recognition if I just walked the dock and handed each boat owner a fist full of money!

Sponsorship costs are so high that it makes it difficult for companies to sponsor the event.

I understand the position of the organizers, the sponsors and the participants. Everything revolves around the $. There has to be the right blend for all.

That leaves us, the builder, the promoter, the participant/boat owner, participant guests, and oh...how about the spectators..? So many views and requirements to satisfy...

See you all at the Ft. Lauderdale show, and hopefully on the Key West Poker Run!:drink:

Marc, great breakdown from someone that has "been there". thanks.

Tim,
Thanks for all the builder-side input. These are the things that we all need to understand in order to make an event thirve, or even survive.
You and I have had many conversations about this and I wish I had notes from every one. Your insight is invaluable.

If it was fun before and not now, make it like it was before.

Tim i would have taken a negotiated version of that deal in a heart beat back when we were putting on SOTW