Leak proof, 10 yrs warrantee headers.
01-11-2012, 12:49 PM
#41
Charter Member
Charter Member
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Everything is for sale @ a certain $$
Everything is for sale @ a certain $$
01-11-2012, 02:04 PM
#42
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Thread Starter
Pete:
Glad to hear about your possible new marine header product line. Just some thoughts and suggestions.
Please try and keep a few things in mind as you continue into designs and product of this class.
1. Headers should be headers and not just manifolds.The primary reason most performance boaters buy engines with true headers or add headers to their engines is to increase power. On normally aspirated engines the design and actual function of the header should produce measurable power and torque over a stock manifold or aftermarket manifold system. There is a science to actual runner shape, size and length and a true header should also have a carefully designed merge collector and transition into the tips to extract maximum efficiency from the engine. Todays performance boaters are very savy about performance gains and so you should have a header that produces results that will be verifiable in use and in the boat! There are actually only a small few marine headers that are excellent efficient designs!
2. There should also always be two distinct types of headers for marine performance engines, one long tube for N/A engines and another design specifically for supercharged and turbo charged engines the header requirement will be different especially how each engine type is trying to make maximum power.
3. Asthetics or "bling" in marine performance boats is HUGE, don't let anybody try to convince you its not that important!
Make sure the great looks are there as an aspect of your product and its design.
4. Try to keep the old saying KISS in mind. Keep the product as simple as possible and "Never Make a Product More Complicated than It Needs To Be to Work Well" !!
Keep the finished product easy to install as possible and easy to work on and service after install. Design in a clean finished appearance and tightly packaged as reasonable to keep space and clearance issues at a minimum.
5. Try to design and engineer from a market supported price point backwards to your final design and product. Its really not smart to design and then have to produce a product that is overpriced for its real market to a point where only a few users will purchase it.
I hope these ideas will help in your efforts. If I can be of help, let me know, I think I have a pretty good understanding of the marine exhaust connundrum and a lot of expierence into aspects of header design and performance.
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
Glad to hear about your possible new marine header product line. Just some thoughts and suggestions.
Please try and keep a few things in mind as you continue into designs and product of this class.
1. Headers should be headers and not just manifolds.The primary reason most performance boaters buy engines with true headers or add headers to their engines is to increase power. On normally aspirated engines the design and actual function of the header should produce measurable power and torque over a stock manifold or aftermarket manifold system. There is a science to actual runner shape, size and length and a true header should also have a carefully designed merge collector and transition into the tips to extract maximum efficiency from the engine. Todays performance boaters are very savy about performance gains and so you should have a header that produces results that will be verifiable in use and in the boat! There are actually only a small few marine headers that are excellent efficient designs!
2. There should also always be two distinct types of headers for marine performance engines, one long tube for N/A engines and another design specifically for supercharged and turbo charged engines the header requirement will be different especially how each engine type is trying to make maximum power.
3. Asthetics or "bling" in marine performance boats is HUGE, don't let anybody try to convince you its not that important!
Make sure the great looks are there as an aspect of your product and its design.
4. Try to keep the old saying KISS in mind. Keep the product as simple as possible and "Never Make a Product More Complicated than It Needs To Be to Work Well" !!
Keep the finished product easy to install as possible and easy to work on and service after install. Design in a clean finished appearance and tightly packaged as reasonable to keep space and clearance issues at a minimum.
5. Try to design and engineer from a market supported price point backwards to your final design and product. Its really not smart to design and then have to produce a product that is overpriced for its real market to a point where only a few users will purchase it.
I hope these ideas will help in your efforts. If I can be of help, let me know, I think I have a pretty good understanding of the marine exhaust connundrum and a lot of expierence into aspects of header design and performance.
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
Your input and oppinions are allways welcomed and respected.
I got two things to work out. There is some "bling", it's shiny etc. but not as "clean" or polished for example as the CMI headers. I hate them (CMI) but they do look good and I can see this "look" issue is important.
I don't want to mass produce these, this is not my retirenment fund, more like a hobby and hopefully some will have a use for this. I want to keep the costs under $3500 per set and maybe a few hundred more to add some "bling".
The concept is pretty simple, but I have some dimensinal issues I got to work out for "side by side" apps. Cats, staggered, single.. no problem. I have a rectangular collectin box, (yup, i still need one). All the tubes are pretty much the same lenght, goes into the collection box all in line. (horizontal) No square box and no "upper" or "lower" ports where reversion and back wash is an issue. On the square boxes the two lower tubes always have some back wash or reversion issues. But I have to work out the side by side space. I think I got it figured out.
Thanks again Ray.. good stuff.
01-11-2012, 02:08 PM
#43
Registered
Paradox,
Do you have any idea of the costs to bring a reliable 10 year warranty product to the consumer ? You should design and test each application to obtain RAM data. You will need significant resources i.e. boats, engines, fuel, maintenance and many hours of testing.
Do you have any idea of the costs to bring a reliable 10 year warranty product to the consumer ? You should design and test each application to obtain RAM data. You will need significant resources i.e. boats, engines, fuel, maintenance and many hours of testing.
01-11-2012, 02:17 PM
#44
Registered
Thread Starter
Thirdchild
I gladly comment, and I have no porblems with any type of constructive inputs. That's why I started this.
In this economy may be the best time to offer something economical, that works. Not planning to get rich on this, it would be nice.. lol, but it seems we all keeping our boats longer. KE headers are great, costly to make, hard to get new sets. Plus, what I have in mind still differ from any casting style or full water jacketed system.
But let's think about one more thing. "Planned Obsolesence". I like Merc. but Merc has a plastice impeller housin gfor about what $50.? and a disposable impeller for about $20? so $20 protects 20-25K plus engine. Thats why there is aftermarket products that are better then the originals. (IE brass impeller housing)
My "gismo"
while the performance would be the same as the top headers IT IS different in concept. may not be better, but that we just have to see how the consumers will react.
The air cooling was just an examle. based on the math, I got to get rid of so much BTU in the headers that the boat would go faster just by the air "jet" system out of the back.
I guess there is an out of the box "propulsion system"
I gladly comment, and I have no porblems with any type of constructive inputs. That's why I started this.
In this economy may be the best time to offer something economical, that works. Not planning to get rich on this, it would be nice.. lol, but it seems we all keeping our boats longer. KE headers are great, costly to make, hard to get new sets. Plus, what I have in mind still differ from any casting style or full water jacketed system.
But let's think about one more thing. "Planned Obsolesence". I like Merc. but Merc has a plastice impeller housin gfor about what $50.? and a disposable impeller for about $20? so $20 protects 20-25K plus engine. Thats why there is aftermarket products that are better then the originals. (IE brass impeller housing)
My "gismo"
while the performance would be the same as the top headers IT IS different in concept. may not be better, but that we just have to see how the consumers will react.The air cooling was just an examle. based on the math, I got to get rid of so much BTU in the headers that the boat would go faster just by the air "jet" system out of the back.
I guess there is an out of the box "propulsion system"
Last edited by PARADOX; 01-11-2012 at 02:19 PM.
01-11-2012, 02:33 PM
#45
Registered
Thread Starter
Paradox,
Do you have any idea of the costs to bring a reliable 10 year warranty product to the consumer ? You should design and test each application to obtain RAM data. You will need significant resources i.e. boats, engines, fuel, maintenance and many hours of testing.
Do you have any idea of the costs to bring a reliable 10 year warranty product to the consumer ? You should design and test each application to obtain RAM data. You will need significant resources i.e. boats, engines, fuel, maintenance and many hours of testing.
I don't see my design to be a mass market product. I hope I'm wrong and it takes off like wild fire, but.. this is more like a hobby and passion, not my retirenment. I will still have to work. It would be sure nice if I'm wrong and I can just quit my day job.
I want to keep the price down for a set under 4K.
I can do that for 500's 525's 600's, may be the 700's but for the 850+HP, just simply the material costs, being larger and "thicker' might go above $4500
I only want to make two types. Under 850 and above. the concept is the same.
01-11-2012, 02:41 PM
#46
Registered
Give the State of the Industry, 2012: Part III a quick read. Bob Latham has some words of wisdom on the topic of bringing new products to the marketplace.
VIP Member
01-11-2012, 03:33 PM
#48
Registered
Thread Starter
Just kidding, I think I know what you meant. Keep posted, and once I get some more feedback, work out a few glitches, etc. will see how it will sake out.
Last edited by PARADOX; 01-11-2012 at 03:35 PM.
