I truely wonder what the true cost to a manufacture is for a single 27ft performance boat. I know you got probably 10-15 wrapped into a bravo and big block, so now that 125k is left with 100-110 for rest of the boat. Realize manufactures are getting drives and engines at whole sale. Factor in overhead labor and material for the rest I kind of wonder what the profit margin is. I highly doubt you would ever get a boat maker to come on here and truthfully state numbers.

It could be the boats are higher priced to make up for less sales. I still think they need to come back with 24-27 performance boats that are 40-60k and they would sell. Most people on here are in the 60k or less budget.

yeah and most of the boats produced are just copies of stuff thats been around for over a decade, or quarter century, so that R & D, and tooling BS only goes so far.....

If you look at how busy OL, Skater, Cig is, I doubt they have a reason to make a boat that has low margins.

Problem is volume. If you make 100 boats 60k profit x 100 is a lot of money, if you make 5 you may not be able to pay your bills. Also dealer mark up to retail is usually another 35%. Checkmate still offers a value perfomance boat, but they are not setting the world on fire. Does today's buyer want a new 27ft boat for 60K when they can buy a used twin engine 35 fountain for the same price? If OL makes the same on 3 sales that checkmate makes on all who has the better business?

The manufactures found a way to make the same amount of money on one boat as they used to make on 10. That is where we are.

Mercruiser is close to being a monoply. Plain and simple.

i used to work for a small Custom Sportfishing manufacture on the Outerbanks years ago and we built one off 58 footers. I asked the owner why he doesn't build a 45 also.

He said something that has stuck with me for 15 years.

It is not much more work and money to build a 58 footer over a 45 footer and the value is almost worth double on the market

excellent point! I mean what 3 or 4 models of the new checkmates are 10+ year old Baja molds. I almost fell out of my chair laughing a few years ago when I found that Donzi Sweet 16's were retailing at $45k new.....that hull is what over 40 years old I'm pretty sure they had recouped their R&D money by now, no wonder Donzi's gone.

I do agree it's never been a cheap hobby for the common man. I mean my sticker on my boat in 91 was $32k
of course asking nearly $90k for the redone 22 Pachanga in 2010 was downright outragous especially considering it was uglier, heavier and barely would outrun mine. that said I have almost no voice in this argument, I'd never buy a boat new, maybe if I lived in a better climate....eh even then probably not lol.

Something else has changed a lot and that is buyers desires.

How many people want a single black engine boat? If it isn't powered by a 525 at least most people consider it under powered, where as a decade ago a lot of 454MPIs and 502MPS went into boats. Buyers also want all the bells, whistles and billet that a 40 foot skater or mti has on their 24 foot v bottom entry level boat.

Times are tough for builders it doesn't make sense for each to have a crew to build the boats, at least the hulls. You'd almost have to have a company that laid up your hulls on your molds. If 5, 6, 10 builders contracted with one company to lay up their boats. If each builder built 10 boats, thats 100 boats a year and maybe that would make it cost effective for the builder and the company laying up the hulls

Also like auto supply warehouses they also might be able to buy enough bulk gauges, engines, wires hoses and so on to make it work.

Finally capital is a big propblem, unless the builder has something to pledge to the bank outside the boat business its going to be hard to build boats and enough (well maybe not enough) but a lot of people have paid for boat construction that took way too long or never got completed that the days of the buyer financing the boat construction for the builder is waining, at least in the low end of things.

Like everything today..there are a lot of challenges, but like all things, when there is enough demand for it, someone will build it.

I just purchased a new Nordic through Key Bank. Sold my 06 Heat to do so. I feel like I got a good amount of boat for what I paid and here is why. We recently had the Utah boat show, 99% cruisers and wake board boats. When I see what these wake board boats cost it blows my mind. People here buy them up like crazy. I saw a Mastercraft and Malibu at a "boat show" price of 136K. And I really don't think there are made very well. Saw a few pontoons as I am walking by I am thinking to myself Jared buy one of these and just enjoy life...cook a fukin cheeseburger and relax. Well those cost 70K WTF! I am a complete idiot but I am sure going to enjoy my new boat and it is a write off for me...I make good money but am not even close to what I call fuk you money, which is what the Miami boat show is I'm sure.

Good points. But I dont think the average guy is concerened with black motors. You start talking higher end stuff there, and thats people with money. A BBC is maybe 7-10k tops you start talking 525's thats a different ball game. I like your points but I think your first paragraph doesnt describe the common man out there. Because go out on a lake once most boats are black motored 22-28ft boats. Very few twin engine 40ft hammers running 90 out there.

Not many entry level people are going to risk their entire budget on a boat built by someone they don't know, who claims he can build one on the cheap.

Of course, you can buy a used anything, but that's not the point of this thread. The problem is you can't go buy a new already built 95 mph (or even 80 mph GPS) performance boat for $30K.

I looked at the Phantom website, and they don't show anything under 30 ft. I doubt those are $30K.

What technology has moved forward? The GPS speedometer is about the only thing I can think of in the past 20 years. The boating industry is one of the slowest moving industries I have ever seen as far as technology goes. They still use carburetors on a lot of engines! It's the same hulls, same engines, same drives, same props, same seats, same gelcoat. Boring. I pickup a magazine every year or so, and it is the same thing. Nothing has changed.

The only thing that has moved forward at a fast pace are the prices (for the same old stuff).

Michael

Very good points and true. I have had my 91 fountain fountain next to a 2005 Fountain and 2008 Baja 33 outlaw and let me tell you beyond there isnt much difference besides my dash is old school black but everything is the same.

Boats arent like cars people dont use them like a car where you drive every single day and go on 20hour trips. My last boat was a 93 crownline with 45hours the thing looked out of the box, for 9 grand it was a steal. I bought my 91 for 26 almost two years ago and had 303hours on which isnt much. Sad thing is I could probably get that same 29 in this market for probably low 20's. Ive had boaters come up and say nice boat what is that a 2003, 2004, etc. The thing with boats I would never go new manufactures are rediculous with price, I can be out on the same water, having the same fun, goind relatively the same speed, looking just as cool at a fraction of the cost. Say they built a 29 today I would assume the boat would be 150-175k. I will never make the kind of money to justify a boat at that price, and I think the most of us would be in that boat.

Boating is a luxury got it and it cost money. But if companies could make them more reasonable priced they could sell more. But then again it goes back to their volume of sales and profit margin. On a 150k boat I would assume the profit margin is farily large per boat, but as far as volume goes it may not be big thus the high price.

Its like that with everything , look at cell phones the technology is relatively the same as 5 years ago, phone are actually getting bigger again, so the arguement that smaller technology cost more is bs.

Even cars and trucks the price keeps going up, yes you have some creature comforts and better fuel efficient engines but for the most part if I stuck you in a 2000 1500 and a 2012 1500 and said drive it blind folded you wouldnt know the difference

You'd probably figure it out pretty quick when you crash! The 2012 is going to give you more rash from the airbag!! :poopoo:

My first naval architecture internship was with MasterCraft boats and the reason that they show such ridiculous prices is to help dealers with floor plan financing. While I dont like where the company has gone as far as styling they do use top tier suppliers. For example the towers and billet pieces are done by the same company that supplies Cigarette. Structurally the boats are WAY overbuilt and the ilmor powertrains are excellent. I will agree that the Malibu is not the most well designed or built boat.

Now back to the topic at hand. There are a huge number of costs that the average consumer just doesnt see or think about, in the last couple of years anything petroleum based has jumped a huge amount in price, mechanical components also are increasing in price and complexity which is requiring more training for the workers. New EPA standards make operations more expensive, and implementing different manufacturing techniques that are becoming necessary to stay ahead of regulations take time and money to implement.

I was about to chime in on this thread and mention sort of the same thing along these lines. Im not sure most of the people commenting in this thread about the increased prices in boats over the years are meaning it's the boat manufacturers price gouging the customer, or....? But if that is what they're getting at then I can say being a mechanical design engineer myself I can you tell there is so much more that goes into all this stuff than the average joe even knows. A lot of people just take the hard product for face value. Not sure if any of the boat manufacturers are reading this thread but it'd be nice to hear first hand from them with their thoughts. I can't speak for them but I bet a lot of it boils down to a few things that a lot of industries are struggling with....shrinking sales/demand which translates into lower production rates, which translates into higher costs per unit, which translates into shrinking profits.....increased manufacturing costs, raw material costs, stricter rules/regulations = higher costs, and the list goes on.....it all has a snowball effect.

I'm not saying the boat manufacturer's prices are too high, too low, or whatever, but just trying to look at it from another view.

Who is the common man? 20 yrs ago when I worked at a large rack storage place our clientel of 50-60 hi-per boats were owned by guys who were mechanically inclined. Contractors, carpenters, car dealers,gas station owners, tool salemen, etc etc ect. Most grew up I would say fixing there own stuff, call tinkering if you will. In 94 out of 50 boats only 2 were full service, the rest did their own tune ups and some would pull motors at night by bribing the fork lift op with beer and be back together for the weekend. Those to me, were the common man, much like myself. Wrench all night so you can be at the beach by noon.
Fast foward to today, I don't think the newer generation is as mechically inclined, no offense. I don't think they are capable of taking an older boat, freshening it up, going out, break and fix it all the time nor want's too. Which, is as we know, a affordable way to have a great ride.
Todays common man are, imo, more into computer games and internet instead of playing in the garage. Therefore when they want a toy they go buy a zo6 or whatever. Buying a boat that is turn key for 200 hrs is not affordable for a guy making 150k a year.
The common man? yep ,he is gone, at least the guys I used to know anyways.
Please don't anyone get offended with my generalizations. I know there are lots of common men on here, but its a small world on oso.

entry level boating - its still possible!
 

Just testing the waters here, no pun intended (alright, maybe intended):lolhit: anyway, great thread; I think whether we do it here or possibly begin a new thread which shares, highlights and promotes some of the manufacturers and companies selling more "common man" products and providing services to "common man" boaters to keep us on the water would be great for all. Unfortunatley these guys dont sell $700,000 boats, so they cant advertise much, which is a large reason they are relatively unknown and thus sell fewer boats. I say this because I love fast boats and with out these smaller builders/riggers/gurus, I would not have a triple digit 27 footer.

There will always be that guy that is prideful of doing all of his own work. I'm a 22 year old engineering student, and because I had a father that fixed everything himself I do the same, I actually get very disgusted with my fellow naval architecture classmates that know next to nothing about what it takes to run a boat or ship. In my mind if you are tasked with designing and engineering something you dam well better be able to fix it when if all goes wrong!

Get used to it man, cuz whether you want to believe it or not there are plenty of working engineers out there who when it comes down to it, don't really know how to turn a wrench. Yes they've read about it in books and can talk a big game, but a lot of them lack that common sense when it comes time to troubleshooting or fixing something.

Having worked as a mechanical engineer myself, I agree with you. The problem people have is the boat designs and parts haven't changed much at all in the past 20 years, but the prices for the same products have skyrocketed.

Michael

Already covered this a few pages back...

Don't be an A-hole jay :lolhit:

You'll have to excuse me. I switched to Sanka

Donzi is not "gone"! In bankruptcy, yes, but don't call them gone. The Classics may me done though, which goes right back to the point of this thread about entry level performance boats.

lol!

Agree on the Engine Prices!!
 

Engine prices are part of this ridiculous boat prices. 30 to 50K for a performance MARINE engine???? I can buy a new corvette for around 50K which has a pretty high performance engine as well a transmission drive train. Now throw in the rest of the cars body, frame, electrical, instruments etc..........

I understand these marine engines are not sold in great volume but come on there is a limit on the amount of profit you can make on any product. Their pricing will only affect their sales.

Its just plain RIDICULOUS!

My take on all of this is that there appears to be a healthy market for good used, clean, turn-key performance boats in the under $25K price range.

Examples would be early '80's to mid '90's Formulas, Welcrafts, Chris Crafts, Bajas, Sonics, etc that were popular 25~30 years ago. The boat would need to be turn-key because most guys will never get spousal approval to buy something for the family that "only needs....".

In most parts of the country this action would be seasonal due to the affliction of winter. In areas of the south and west like Central and South Florida, Southern California and Arizona the business would be less seasonal because of boating being available year round.

If the boats for sale have simple systems like Mercruiser small and big block Chevy power and predominately Alpha drive systems that parts are plentiful and inexpensive...they would sell. Load them up with amenities like great sound systems and re-furbed seating and upholstery ( women won't tolerate old worn out $hit) with a reliable trailer and you have the magic boat that is affordable. So I find a 23' '85 Chris Craft Scorpion with a single 260 Merc that is on a decent trailer but needs a re-power. I buy it for $4500 or less, put a re-built long block in it, upgrade the cockpit interior, put a decent middle of the road sound system in it and hang a $11,995 For Sale sign on it and let them beat me down to $10,500. I have $7500 in it and clear $3K.

The target demographic is the 35~45 year old married couple with 2: teens or pre teens and a annual household income of $75k~$100K living in Indianapolis,St. Louis, Atlanta, Baltimore or Phoenix. They probably have $15K~$20K in savings and would strongly consider parting with a big chunk of that to buy recreation that the whole family can enjoy for 4~5 years before the kids move out.

I think this is doable. The risk is whether or not my demographic is confident enough in the economy and the stability of their employment to spend the money.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that has considered this idea or something similar.

What would your labor and over head costs be?

What would Suzie Orman say? "You CAN'T afford it!" :lolhit:

I was looking at the Miami OSO party and poker run pictures and noticed something that sorta fits into this discussion. This isn't a young group, there are many grey and balding heads in those pictures which represent some long time hard working people that have worked their way up the scale in the business world.
Some of these guys probably were "common men" and had a 23' run about but they succeeded and are in a place where they can now spend.
I'm sure a number of current "common men" will move up, turn grey haired or bald and eventually own a mega-bling boat.
ed

You just nailed it right there. With the current status of our economy the younger people will never be able to move up and afford these high end boats. So, the people that can afford them are just getting older which is why you see the change over to all of these center consoles. I'm 26 and I am very fortunate to be able to afford what I have, and do the stuff I do but most people my age that I know are crying about spending $100 at the bar. So, I don't see many young people getting into the sport....

I agree.

Less than $1000 on this one.

In my neighbor hood I see quite a few 25~30 year old college grads still living with mom and dad because they can't afford their own place...much less a boat.

I think the performance market is going to undergo big changes in the next 10 years. The average person just will not be able to afford the performance boat as we know it (anything over 65 mph with a big block).

1) Gas over $5 per gallon. A 27' Fountain with a single 496 burns 23 gph at 51 mph. Let's say you run a single engine boat 100 hours a year at 20 gallons per hour (about 45 mph), that's 2000 gallons, or $10,000, just for gas!

2) You trailer the boat to the coast or lake 100 miles away. Your tow vehicle gets 10 mpg towing it say 8 times per year. That's 160 gallons or another $800 in gas towing. If you are going from L.A. to Lake Havasu, it's a 600 mile round trip. That would cost you $2400 in gas a year, as much as most people spend to run their car for an entire year.

3) Insurance, if you can even get it, could be anywhere from $800 to $2000 or more depending on the boat.

4) Depreciation can be $10,000 a year or more.

5) Add maintenance and repairs (blown Bravo $2000 for instance). It is usually about 10% of the cost of the boat per year. For a $100,000 boat, that would be another $10,000 (less in the newer years, more later).

6) Storage costs, if it won't fit in your garage or driveway, of $1200 to $3600 a year.

I don't know that many people who can afford $25-35,000 a year without a huge hit in their lifestyle, if they could afford it at all.

Just like we have seen with SUVs, people won't give up boating, but I predict a lot of downsizing, less expensive boats, more people moving into under 65 mph boats (much cheaper, more available insurance and running costs), more singles, more outboards. We are at the end of an era.

Michael

The high end market will be just that, exclusive, and high end. They don't need the volume, the owners just need their money. So they downsize, cater to wealthier clientele, and survive just fine. That will be the market. Heck, it almost is now. Nothing wrong with that, many may actually like the exclusivity of it all. In the end, the normal pleasure craft boats will benefit. At some point, some of the more casual name brands may offer some boats that cater to the less expensive, less exclusive performance market.

That's where things started anyway. 14' to 20' boats with larger outboards that did 60 mph to 70 mph max. MOstly lake and river boats, that were affordable, simple, bare bones. I remember lusting after a 14' Glastron with a bigger Merc OB, as well as the newer Checkmates and the like that made cool sounds. They were a lot of fun in the 60's and 70's, they will be a lot of fun again. Many brands have introduced more outboard models for 2011 and this year, many more will follow. This will create competition, and a desire to expand the market.

The only thing required for more entry-level boats to be offered, is for entry-level customers to reduce their demands and expectations. The Common Man has a six pack budget, and wants Corvettes and Porsches. Bling and speed cost $$$$. We used to be happy just to be on the water and remain floating. Expectations have to become more aligned with reality. The manufacturers have adjusted, now it's time for customers to do so as well.

I do wonder,,,,,,,, who are going to be the USED buyers of the high end stuff when they want to get a new boat.

Yep, the definition of rich is "anyone who makes more than me". Doesn't matter where you are. If you lease your gulfstream jet, you look at the ones who own them as rich.

Brian

Boy, you nailed me 6 months ago. We had a good few years, income averaging around $100k and after being frugal for many many years, decided to jump in and have fun with the kids. A new 32' camper, another used suburban and the 86 - 272 formula all in one year came to about $45k, which is or should be paid for by the end of this year. If I hadn't bought the burb and camper, I would have been in the market for a decent boat, but as such I got the older formula.

Now I am glad i did. After digging into this thing, literally, I am not as overwhelmed by the prospect of rebuilding a boat. If I like the offshore game, I figure I might look for a 30 to 32' formula, scarab or baja and just plan on a complete restore that will take me a year or two while I enjoy the 272. Seperate the deck and hull, replace any wood that is wet, yank the drives and motors and start over. Pay cash for everything and I think for $30k I could have a like new boat in the end. Now I am lucky and have the resources to do the work myself and the place to do it, so not saying it is for everyone.

But when I look at the list price of a new 292 formula with twin 350's is about $200,000 on a trailer (+ options), it makes me cough! I do not know how much they discount them, but even if it is 25% that is going to be over $150,000! Just the tax check will be $10,500 which i what I will end up having in my 272 with fresh 350 vortecs! So while I thought about upgrading to a new boat like a 288 sunsation, I think I will be way ahead keeping it a fun hobby and rebuilding the older stuff. I enjoy projects like that so it is worth it to me. heck, I wonder about a 31 Scarab or 311 with small blocks in front of B1's? The new truck motors are making some nice power, would still be faster than the stock 330's they used to come with. Maybe crazy, I am sure someone has / will do it many times before I am ready to go. anyone have a beat up 31' boat that needs restoring in a year?????!!!!

I do not see me ever taking part in the future of buying a new performance boat in the 30' range, just don't see it happening.

Brian

I'll somewhat agree with the first sentence, if the only thought is of $$$. Some of the richest folks I know of don't necessarily have all that much money. They are truly rich in other areas, such as family.

As to the second part, although I'm not lucky to be one of these folks, I'm in the business. I can honestly say I don't know anyone who leases a Gulfstream that thinks the owner of one as 'rich'. Once at this level, you have reached the 'definition'.

Mark is at Rage Powerboats and is building a new 27- also building a 30 and a 32 I believe. I've seen the new 27 run and it is sick!