Its over..... "The common man"
 

Well I couldn't help but notice a few things in the Miami Boat show thread, First and foremost WOW I mean just jaw dropping:eekdrop: But I just couldn't help but think about where things are nowadays, it seems as the day of the entry level performance boater are gone, gone are the 24-28ft single engine models that can accommodate a family and still run on boys day, (27 Formula, 25 Outlaw, 27 Fever, 26 Velocity, 25 Convincer, 28 Sunsation) here are the days 29 ft single engine boats that run 90 mph, and probably cost 200k here I thought things were going downhill when a new 25 outlaw cost 75k, the boats of today 10-15 years old will still be outta the "common mans reach" it makes me wonder on what I'll be driving around the river in 15 years, at this rate probably a 27 ft Formula:lolhit:

I hear you. Its really incredible the new boats that are hitting the market. The technology is moving forward, and state of the art motors are hitting the scene, along with some very impressive newer hulls. As a 28 year old boater, it is extremely disappointing that the entry level boats have all but disappeared. I know i will be in my SCS for years to come, but when im ready to step it up to the next level, the used market will probably be stagnant. I guess until im loaded, ill have to keep watching the big boys play and avoid their wakes!:drool1:

Seen this coming the last 5 years. Its truely sad...

Add to that the 50K pick up trucks needed to pull these boats and the soon to be $5 pump gas to keep everything moving! :D

Brad you have a WS6?


PP ya I agree writing been on the wall for a few years, Then with the cost of gas, it really is over I think, boats are expendable, things get tight there the first to go, it doesn't hurt the big boys in my opinion most big boys run the run and go home, or go out for 4 hours on Sunday, I use mine at least 4 days a week, and all day sat and Sunday, unless its raining.

Back on topic I wonder how the new "bling" factor will affect the sales of our older boats, I would think with the cost of these new things are older ones would be more attractive and maybe there values have hit the bottom

It is simply down to the economics of it all. There are very few people left that do not require some kind of financing on a boat until you are north of 300k. The lack of available customers coupled with decrease in volume; which is what drives small boat production; means there are fewer builders willing to invest in entry level boats.

Boat Prices "New" are Ridiculous!!
 

Hold on to your used boats. New boat manufacturers are just plain nuts. A 19' foot boat with a 4 cyl for 26K and near 38K with a 5.0L??? I know most here don't care about a 19' bowrider, but you can see were these prices are going.

And you have to admit that after the past 15 years, the style and look of performance boats have not changed in appearance and style very much. Technology advancement in performance boats has not increased to equal or justify the increase in prices.

Yup. I look at the prices of new boats and realize that I can gut mine, redo interior, hardware and paint, refresh the power, and have something unique, and still be ahead of the money game.

That's why I started Resurrection Marine (shameless promotion :whistle:).
We can restore a true classic boat with true classic lines and style for half to a quarter of what it would cost to buy a cookie cutter bowrider of the same size. For folks who only go out 10 or 15 times a year it makes a whole lot more sense to buy something restored at a reasonable price then to buy a high dollar new boat just to leave it sit and depreciate for most of the year.
We also get to pull a few of these classics out of the weeds and keep them from going to a landfill or even worse, abandon on one of our waterways and put them back on the water. It's a win, win for everyone.

I wish I would hav kept about 3 of the ones I have had in the past and just moth balled them.

yuuup!

I have to agree after attending the show for the first time. It was awesome to see all the hardware but the two "smaller" performance boats I looked at, Huslter and Outerlimts 29's, both start at 150K, closer to 200K with bigger power and options. The rest of the really cool stuff was between 300K and a mil. I guess I will keep my old tub for a few more years.

I think once the "fire sales" are done we'll see the used market come back.

What Happened to "JOE BOATER"?
 

Some OSO posters and participants could actually be somewhat responsible for this out of sight new boat pricing and boat builder marketing and offerings.
How, because for years many have come on this very forum and wowed, exclaoimed and talked up all these over the top MTI"S Skaters, OUterlimits, Nortechs, and such to a point that many of the performance boat builders think in a funny way this is all their potential customers want, covet and are planning to step up into! Made top speeds and horsepower so important, out of this world paint and gel coat scences, electronic equipment, unbelievable interior systems and such got all the raves . coverage and guess what, the builders read here, listen to the comments and somewhat think this is all the market really wants in performance boating.
I have been saying right here on OSO for years that his industry was not building a product both boats engines, drive systems and accessories for "JOE BOATER" the average guy who really built this industry and made it go.
Well now a lot of boaters here on OSO and in the sport are being offered what they spent so much talk and print wowing over and guesss what -THEY CAN'T AFFORD THIS VERY PRODUCT! THEY SENT A MISGUDED MESSAGE!
change your message to the industry, let builders and such know you want these somewhat affordable entry and "JOE BOATER" boats and specs. they will quickly get the message and maybe even see the narrow market they themselves have helped create!
JMO

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar One of the JOE BOATER ENGINE GUYS!

Well I don't think the common man goes to Miami to buy a common boat. That's like going to Barrett jackson to buy a daily driver.
I own a couple of companies that tend to work with better off buyers (not boats). We make things that will have profit in them and have a viable market. We look at who is actually buying our product not just looking. Out of habit I looked at the person who started this thread's personal boat. When the last year formula put that boat out? Did he buy it new? I am gonna guess no. He complains about prices and also mentioned the Baja. Did he get one of those or a like boat? Was he ever part of the demand?
We joke about the guy that comes in and says "dam those are a lot more than they were 10years ago". The go buy used and come back in a few more years and says the same thing. Well there are a lot of factors but that person was never a factor in any of it.
You have to be in the market to have the market respond.
Our kind of boats were never for the common man. Not new when they were produced. What common man buys a toy that does what these thnings do? It's a luxury. Always has been always will be. We don't need one to get to work.
Until the economy returns where more wealth is out there tem things will stay this way. People like me will make things for those stepping up to the plate with cash. Simple as that.
One of my companies make a product that we all use and the higher end of that line is doing better than ever.
Also don't forget there are guys out there still building cheaper boats. Phantom, velocity, and others.
I know this is all over the place and I hope I don't sound like a jerk to the guy who started this but we make what people want. It's that simple. If someone went out an made a bunch of 50k boats who would buy them? Not any of us when you see what's for sale used.
Some guys that are complaining probably have never bought new so someone else made the initial investment.

This is an awesome thread. very real!

Now that we agree on the issues and how unaffordable boats have become, what numbers can we tell the OL's, Skaters, Cigs, what price point they need to be at to allow the common man the joys of boatings' past? Maybe they need to introduce an entry-entry level boat.

Would a 80K turnkey deep-V return boating to what it once was, back to the common boater? How about a turnkey 70K single cat or a 99K twin cat?

If we're not too picky, I think that there are still some companies out there that can meet those numbers?

off the top of my head:

superboat - Y2K 30 feet with non-race engine

predator - C30 twin 200HP Pro XS

activator - ??? is Mark still building 27's?

kryptonite - special order only

Ray is right. The delusions of grandeur are hilarious. The big guns get the majority of the press but who really buys?

Of the guys that buy- how many actually maintain?

Boats (at least like the ones we ride around in and covet) have never been a common man thing.

They always have, and always will be expensive, but have been pushed over the top with the housing boom, and ridiculous standards, insurance for manufacturers and regulatory agencies etc etc.....

It isnt gone- yet, but its teetering.

There are a handfull of West Coast builders that have sweet spots in the 21-32 foot range that still build high quality product at a quasi affordable price - a chance to own something unique.

Lavey, Nordic, Hallett, Howard, Advantage, Ultra- all build very nice products and would love your business.

Uncle Dave

And now we have the over priced Center Console Craze. Why??
Because of what Ray said.

They really need to call it something other than "center console" IMO, Center consoles are fishing machines! and Yellowfin is #1 in that department!

I got into boating from the lake side and not the ocean. I was amazed through the 90's the increased size of the boats. At Lake Cumberland, Cigarettes and Scarabs of the day were very rare. Owners were assumed to be anything but a common man. The "common man" powerboater at lake Cumberland had a jet, Hydrostream outboard, or a Sea Ray with a hot engine. I went back and looked at some of my 1980's Powerboat and Hot Boat Magazines. Back then 35 footers were rare, power was far from exotic, contruction material schedules did not include anything high tech.
I was working in Somerset 1 day a week when Randy Hartmann started Lake Cumberland Marine in half of a used car lot. He started off as a Nautique dealer only and then added Sea Doo. With Sea Doo, he had a lot of sales. One day when I dropped by to talk to him, he asked me what I thought about Fountain. My opinion to him was they're a great boat but I don't know how many your going to sell here. He said I think I'm going to order a couple and see. This was at the time of the big
stock market boom. A couple years later as he was selling lots of boats, he remarked he didn't know where all the people with enough money were coming from to buy the boats.
He was a very hard worker and grew to add most of the exclusive lines of powerboats.
I'd say would agree that the economic boom of the time gave people a historic amount of disposable income.
Now the new Nautique 20 foot ski not wakeboard boat I bought had a retail of 74K. That doesn't make the OL 29 seem way out of line.
Bottom line is now I think we're moving back to the lifestyle pre boom and it's hard to accept and is hard for lots of good people in the marine industry.
I'm going to poweboat til I die even if it's on a much smaller scale.

it amazes me that someone will pay that much money for a cat that the seats are sitiing on the floor like a bassboat....we get caught up in the paint and speeds but when you really look at the boat being built theres not much to it

Not to sound super cheap, but when i heard it was 35 dollars a head to get in i was shocked. I haven't been to a boat show in a while but that seems a high price to pay to get in to spend more money inside.

it was $32 for thursday, the other days were $18 and it was pretty easy to find discount tickets online for $15. Well worth it even just to look at the boats and other stuff there at the convention center. To pay to go into Sea isle marina was a waste of money.

There is alot that goes into a Skater, it is a custom built boat as are a few others, built to the customers specs. buy anything custom and you get what you pay for in this case.


It is unforunate that I am not in the 1 or 2% that could afford it.

come on Powerball! LOL

$35.00 was the ticket price for Thursday only- "Premier Day"... I paid $18.00, which was the price of a ticket for one day, Friday thru Monday. A two-day pass that was good any two days Friday thru Monday was $32.00. The most expensive ticket was $80.00 and that was good for entry all five days, Thursday thru Monday.

This isn't a "Common Mans' " hobby. Never has been. Never will be. My .02 cents.

Allow me to offer another perspective:

Guy is making $200,000 a year. Let's say after taxes, state and federal, he nets $150,000. That would be pretty "good."

He finds a new entry-level sportboat he wants for $50,000. That, too, would be pretty "good." So he buys it. Sure, he can finance it, but that leaves him with debt on a rapidly, and I mean rapidly, depreciating asset

He has now spent one-third of his net income, a hefty chunk, on a luxury item with a price tag that is equivalent to four years of tuition for his kid at a good university in some states (and one year in a spendy private college).

But my point isn't that his hobby takes up a substantial, some would argue inordinate, chunk of his net income. My point is that ... a guy grossing $200,00 is not the common man.

Put another way, go-fast boating, even at the most affordable levels, is expensive.

Then after all that the neighbour at the marina says its too loud, your insurance company doesn't stand behind you after you have paid too much for a policy, the repair shop rips you a new azzhole for fixing it and delivering it 3 weeks late and in the worst case some douchebag steals it from you when your back is turned.

Life is grand.LOLLOL

Very well said Matt ~ Unless you're lucky enough to be in the millionaires club, boating is a HUGE chunk of our income. It's a choice that I'm sure all of us grapple with at times...

Our passion for the sport definitely clouds our common sense and enables us to rationalize it somehow, or we wouldn't be boaters! :daz:

Growing up on Cumberland I love hearing cool stories like this. Thanks for sharing!

I don't think I follow the point of this thread. OP states "where are the entry level boats?" Well, there are a TON of them! SeaRay, FourWinns, Chapparal, Crownline and many others are still making boats to my knowledge. Sure, many have went under, reorganized and emerged a smaller tighter manufacturer, but they are there! As for "entry level" High Performance boating, that would be like an entry level Ferrari or Lamborghini! I have boated all my life, bought (and sold) many "family" boats. The boat I had before my Advantage was to me a "crossover". A 25' Crownline with a big block that would run 65. I bought it new, kept it several years after paying it off then found my current (used) 32' "go fast" with twin big blocks. BUT, my new "go fast" would be considered a tub by many of the REAL high performance boaters. It was what I could afford. In my eyes, the Miami Boat Show is like someone mentioned before, the "Barrett Jackson" of boat shows. If you go to many of the smaller boat shows around the country, you will find your "entry level" boat for "Joe Boater".

Most of the folks I boat with have 20-25' boats that don't run much over 50, so in THEIR eyes, I am the high performance boater. It's all about perspective. There will always be someone you look at and wonder "how in the hell do they afford it?"

I would consider my wife and I the "common man" if not less than in comparison to the average boating community. We spend a large chunk of our income in the summer boating. Consequently, we make significant sacrifices in other areas. We also purchased a used, old (good shape however) boat that works for us. We needed something to handle the LOTO conditions but within reach of our budget, that put new boats or even relatively new boats way out of our reach. It is difficult for the average couple or individual but it is either worth it to you or it isn't. Either way, nothing beats a day on water, good boater friendly company, a few good drinks, warm sunlight, & bikinis. :evilb:

Here in the MIdwest, $200k salary is a monster salary IMO. I would also not consider this the common man. That kind of money goes a long way in my area of the country if managed correctly.

Running along the lines of CrownHawg's post I keep seeing lots of new Ferrari type boats, the entry level manufacturers listed seem like the Camry and Taurus end of the fleet. While they may be fine family cars, they're not very exciting. What we really need is a some new Corvettes and Mustangs. They're not the fastest or fanciest things out there but have attitude and performance to avoid being to satisfy most people. Not necessarily cheap, but with financing, within reach of most people with salary under 100K.

Engine costs blow me away. When you cam buy an entire car for the cost of 1 outboard motor, or a house for the cost of some of the sterndrive engines, it's insane. I have good knowledge of what goes into an engine and makes it tick. I just can't imagine why a basic 525 engine should cost 30K for maybe 6K in parts. I know companies must make a profit to operate, but what's the difference between making a living and a killing?

I guess that's why I collect other peoples junk and rebuild it myself into something I want. I'll never turn a profit on my labor but at least I get to enjoy something I could not otherwise afford. :lolhit:

It all started with car/truck prices, used to be you could (and I did) buy new in the $20K range .. the recent prices for a new Tahoe or F250 are sick.
The middle class used to tread water, now we need a snorkel.

That is why the boat market is hurting. Like others have said there are very few people that have the money to buy 100k+ boats then the 50k truck to pull and pay to operate it. I think that is why you have these bigger boats being out of reach of most people now because they figure the only people that has money for boats are people with big money.

Ill personally never be able to afford or at least justify a 150k boat. And I would never do the idiotic thing of doing a 20-25 year loan.

I get your point and do agree. But even if you go look at a 24 Ft Sea Ray or Crownline your still talking 60-80k for one, and thats a lot money for a boat. I am not an entitlist and people dont deserve everything and you must work for things. But 60-80k for a 24ft boat, I mean I just dont see the money in it. But boat companies are going out of business and losing sales and they wonder why.

:party-smiley-004:Common ego 1/2 the guys on here with boats like these used some type of loan??The smart guy buys all cash because the up keep will be 20k a year!In 10 yrs 200k if it's free&clear :whistle:More of these boat companys will fall when reality overcomes ego!Common man will still be on the water having fun!!While the others will be either stealing,cheating, or working 10 jobs to keep that over priced boat!!:evilb:I can buy any boat I want but I won't till this one is no fun anymore!!:hijack:

Manufacturers will always go where there is a market.

My guess is the current condition makes it where the "common" man as described here is disappearing from the performance boat arena. I imagines loans for boats have to be atrociously hard to get these days so most manufacturers are focusing on where there is a market, higher end boats mostly paid cash or government orders that necessitates less lending.

Manufacturers will not be able to build middle types of performance boats until lending instruments for consumers of these boats come back to be available, which I think currently they are not.

I think for a good while the "common man" will stay in the used market with loan to value ratio requiring a lot more cash-down than what we were accustomed to in the 2000-2009 "free credit" times... So someone who in the years mentioned before could afford a 35-42ft boat will only be able to fund a 27-32 ft boat. He may also find another pass-time instead of moving backwards... Where the hell are my golf clubs!

Where on earth are you finding fire sales?? I saw that in 2008-2010 but in the last year I see very few giveaways..

Back in 2006 when the economy was in fire I was shopping for a 10-15 yr old 25 ft boat with a 454 and b1 plus trailer. My budget was $20-$30k and had quite a few boats to choose from although most were dated in terms of colors..TODAY when I do searches for boats which are 10-15 yrs old with a 496, b1 and trailer I see prices $20-$30k. So in other words, IMO prices today are comparable with what I was seeing when we had low unemployment and a smoking hot economy. 2008-2009 was the time to buy a boat if you wanted a giveaway deal...

Today's reality: entry level performance boat = used boat!

I think it is a combination of things but mostly a sign of the current (and future) economy.

I bought a new Baja 25 Outlaw in 2005 for $65K. Easily financed through BoA. I think that would be considered a typical entry level boat (although some people say all Baja's are entry level boats! :angry-smiley-038:) and was affordable to a lot of folks.

I don't think I could get the financing for that boat today and as a typical blue collar guy, I don't have the cash to buy one.

I got lucky and sold it soon after buying it for what I paid and bought a used low hours 29 Outlaw for way less than what I paid for the 25.

During the boom people were pulling out equity from their homes or were just getting loans from banks. That is no longer happening so the lower end market has dried up.

The buyers are now (mostly) guys with big $ and can pay cash or have a big chunk to put down. They don't buy the cheaper boats, they buy the big expensive ones.

I was surprised to see OL come out with their 29. It's a beautiful boat but I'm wondering what the market is for it. Cigarette made their 30' Vice but discontinued it quickly. I wanted one of those but it cost them almost as much to produce as their larger boats so the price was pretty high and they didn't sell.

I think used boats priced under $40K or so will continue to sell as regular guys can scrape up that kind of cash. Boats at $40K to $70K may sell too as a guy can put a big down payment and finance the balance (if the boat isn't too old). Used boats above $70K will be harder to move.