Hardin Dual Turbo Kit For 525......
02-22-2012 | 09:24 PM
#42
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,306
Likes: 1
From: Between A Womans Leggs in IL
fixx
I dont see that as a big stumbling block, that's smoother than many choked up logs, and those seem to generally work very well.
Now that I agree with 100%, as I've stated over and over in other threads... SS tube doesn't stand up well to turbo applications, it's been proven to leak over and over again in the automotive world.
The key here IMO is to use cast manifolds. I would do them so they could be bolted on and sold for all BBC apps (not just 525 bolt patterns, sell a redrill kit for those apps). I would think the manifolds and water cooled turbine housings could sell like hotcakes if prices right!
I don't know if liquid cooling will be enough to keep these SS headers from cracking, but I certainly wouldn't want to be a first adopter! Cast manifolds are w/o a doubt the way to go!
Now that I agree with 100%, as I've stated over and over in other threads... SS tube doesn't stand up well to turbo applications, it's been proven to leak over and over again in the automotive world.
The key here IMO is to use cast manifolds. I would do them so they could be bolted on and sold for all BBC apps (not just 525 bolt patterns, sell a redrill kit for those apps). I would think the manifolds and water cooled turbine housings could sell like hotcakes if prices right!
I don't know if liquid cooling will be enough to keep these SS headers from cracking, but I certainly wouldn't want to be a first adopter! Cast manifolds are w/o a doubt the way to go!
02-22-2012 | 09:41 PM
#43
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,436
Likes: 5
From: Fresno, CA, 93722, USA
Well it would seem high time we address some of the questions but first I must say I'm just going to take the high road. I mean why would I ever jump on a supercharger post trying to defame someones product? I wouldn't
To answer Dustin's questions do not worry we know how to build products. We will rotomold coolant tanks and we are aware where shift brackets are mounted. Yes our kit sits 7-1/2" further forward and will not fit every boat ever built. Were not trying to compete against Whipple and were fans of your product you know this. I've owned and supported your products. If you wish call me you have my cell number I will share everything with you there's no hidden secret here.
Ok so I worked the show every single day and answered many questions and NEVER made any claims that we won't be able to stand behind. For those of you that know us then you know we make over 3000 different items. We see a need for a turbo option in the marine market. You can only have so many customers ask for something before you look to meet that need. Lets face it the worlds leading engine builders are all looking to Turbo charging options from Mercury racing, Chief, Sterling, Smith Power, Boost Power, Precision, and the list goes on.
The engine on display was merely a mock up for the purpose of showing people what were working on. The actual engine that were using for testing we saw no purpose in stopping development of it just so that we could crate it up to send to Miami for 5 days. And of course a few of our best features are still up our sleeve. We advised everyone that asked that our target pricing is $12K with exhaust. We also told anyone who asked that we didn't plan to even begin to fulfill any orders until the 4th quarter of 2012. This is based on tooling and casting production of products.
The 525 was just a "EXAMPLE" of what can be done and we wanted to share this one of many concepts. No different the GM showing you the new Camaro at the Detroit auto show prior to its launch. What we merely did was share our enthusiasm with our customers that care and for those that don't please just disregard.
Now let's address manifolds to headers first since we make both Manifolds and Headers we have a lot of history with both. FACT #1 Manifolds will ALWAYS out last headers period!!!!! SO if your interested in longevity whether turbo or not then pull your headers off and come down and get some manifolds. The real problem is people or should I say our primary customers demand headers.
This IS NOT OUR FIRST TURBO HEADER. We have been building turbo headers for the water ski racing market in Australia for over six years with great success. And most recently for some engine builders here in the USA this basic design of header produced over 1600 horsepower right here in the USA for those questioning possibilities. Will headers work you bet , will they break some day yep just like those on everyone's boat out there today. We have not designed a header that never fails FYI even manifolds fail.
The real question or should I say the MOST humor all of this has brought to us has been the fact of the doubt or assumption? But then I guess everyone said Mercury's 1350 would never work either. So here's a fact for everyone to ponder is what were working on well beyond this?. Let me just put it to you this way. Headers aren't our only business and V8 engine aren't the only engines were in turbo development for. You will be seeing a lot more of us in the future. We just merely are transferring AMAZING technology to the marine industry. Were focused on the FUTURE of performance boating
As for performance or power claims have no fear there's no reason to sit here and he said, she said just be a bit patient and we will let the power speak for itself. Our friends and engine builders already have plans to make much much more power than we have posted. Let me confirm for the record making power wasn't the challenge backing it down to a number that MIGHT make it a bit more Bravo friendly was (What am I talking about Bravo friendly there's no such thing as that)
For the nay sayers well please bear with us. yes maybe we shouldn't have showed you what was coming but hey we thought it was a good conversation maker? Guess we were right.
The enthusiasm this kit has brought has been staggering and I want to thank everyone for their support. We love what we do and were enthusiast. There has never been a more exciting time to be a power boater the innovations that are coming are huge and they are not coming from the marine industry they are breed outside of it and our objective is to just share them with our customers. Today's drive train technology is being outdated by the day and the coolest stuff is just around the corner. Compared to what's coming this is just the beginning.
To answer Dustin's questions do not worry we know how to build products. We will rotomold coolant tanks and we are aware where shift brackets are mounted. Yes our kit sits 7-1/2" further forward and will not fit every boat ever built. Were not trying to compete against Whipple and were fans of your product you know this. I've owned and supported your products. If you wish call me you have my cell number I will share everything with you there's no hidden secret here.
Ok so I worked the show every single day and answered many questions and NEVER made any claims that we won't be able to stand behind. For those of you that know us then you know we make over 3000 different items. We see a need for a turbo option in the marine market. You can only have so many customers ask for something before you look to meet that need. Lets face it the worlds leading engine builders are all looking to Turbo charging options from Mercury racing, Chief, Sterling, Smith Power, Boost Power, Precision, and the list goes on.
The engine on display was merely a mock up for the purpose of showing people what were working on. The actual engine that were using for testing we saw no purpose in stopping development of it just so that we could crate it up to send to Miami for 5 days. And of course a few of our best features are still up our sleeve. We advised everyone that asked that our target pricing is $12K with exhaust. We also told anyone who asked that we didn't plan to even begin to fulfill any orders until the 4th quarter of 2012. This is based on tooling and casting production of products.
The 525 was just a "EXAMPLE" of what can be done and we wanted to share this one of many concepts. No different the GM showing you the new Camaro at the Detroit auto show prior to its launch. What we merely did was share our enthusiasm with our customers that care and for those that don't please just disregard.
Now let's address manifolds to headers first since we make both Manifolds and Headers we have a lot of history with both. FACT #1 Manifolds will ALWAYS out last headers period!!!!! SO if your interested in longevity whether turbo or not then pull your headers off and come down and get some manifolds. The real problem is people or should I say our primary customers demand headers.
This IS NOT OUR FIRST TURBO HEADER. We have been building turbo headers for the water ski racing market in Australia for over six years with great success. And most recently for some engine builders here in the USA this basic design of header produced over 1600 horsepower right here in the USA for those questioning possibilities. Will headers work you bet , will they break some day yep just like those on everyone's boat out there today. We have not designed a header that never fails FYI even manifolds fail.
The real question or should I say the MOST humor all of this has brought to us has been the fact of the doubt or assumption? But then I guess everyone said Mercury's 1350 would never work either. So here's a fact for everyone to ponder is what were working on well beyond this?. Let me just put it to you this way. Headers aren't our only business and V8 engine aren't the only engines were in turbo development for. You will be seeing a lot more of us in the future. We just merely are transferring AMAZING technology to the marine industry. Were focused on the FUTURE of performance boating
As for performance or power claims have no fear there's no reason to sit here and he said, she said just be a bit patient and we will let the power speak for itself. Our friends and engine builders already have plans to make much much more power than we have posted. Let me confirm for the record making power wasn't the challenge backing it down to a number that MIGHT make it a bit more Bravo friendly was (What am I talking about Bravo friendly there's no such thing as that)
For the nay sayers well please bear with us. yes maybe we shouldn't have showed you what was coming but hey we thought it was a good conversation maker? Guess we were right.
The enthusiasm this kit has brought has been staggering and I want to thank everyone for their support. We love what we do and were enthusiast. There has never been a more exciting time to be a power boater the innovations that are coming are huge and they are not coming from the marine industry they are breed outside of it and our objective is to just share them with our customers. Today's drive train technology is being outdated by the day and the coolest stuff is just around the corner. Compared to what's coming this is just the beginning.
Now if a dealer actually quotes that it will come in at a price near or below ours? Even though thats incorrect, I have to point it out and correct it as again, that doesn't represent us in the proper way.
Many were under the assumption that it made the HP quoted, again, misrepresentation. System has never run therefore a few key words would've been helpful such as "projected," "estimated" or "targeted."
I've got no problems with your products, everything has pros/cons and the consumers can decide for themselves. There's far more to a complete system then just some exhaust and tubes, such as a proper calibration or the proper computer system. Then the support before and after sale, warranty, custom calibrations, instructions......The consumers will benefit with lower prices and better product so its a win-win for most.
As for the high road, many don't know our relationship and the openness I've always shown you about what were doing, how were doing and what's coming. As a dealer, which is one who represents a certain brand, coming out with something that's direct competition underminds the spirit of being a dealer for a product, and I'll leave that for a later conversation.
We've got some great new products and some new directions so I'm looking forward to the competition, good luck with your new product line.
Last edited by Whipple Charged; 02-22-2012 at 09:44 PM.
02-22-2012 | 09:54 PM
#45
Thread Starter
Registered
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,825
Likes: 612
From: Clarkston, Michigan
OK, I started this thread and, yes, the whipple kit is very enticing. I won't be doing a power/drive makeover for at least two years but now I will have another option.
http://speedonthewater.com/new-boats...or-525efi.html
http://speedonthewater.com/new-boats...or-525efi.html
02-22-2012 | 10:50 PM
#46
Registered
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,777
Likes: 12
From: San Diego, California
Who Da Thunk?
Will the first PERFECT marine performance marine products company Please stand up and take a bow!
I don't see anybody standing UP?
Does that mean their are no Perfect marine performance manufacturers?
Yep, I guess that explains it!
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
I don't see anybody standing UP?
Does that mean their are no Perfect marine performance manufacturers?
Yep, I guess that explains it!
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
02-23-2012 | 11:01 AM
#48
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 266
Likes: 0
From: Palm Coast, FL
Nobody is taking away from what your doing, just pointing out the obvious. I just can't stand misrepresentation of product. If one says it did not change the envelope in any way, and it clearly does as shown in every pic and in person when viewing the engine, it should be pointed out as there was confusion.
Now if a dealer actually quotes that it will come in at a price near or below ours? Even though thats incorrect, I have to point it out and correct it as again, that doesn't represent us in the proper way.
Many were under the assumption that it made the HP quoted, again, misrepresentation. System has never run therefore a few key words would've been helpful such as "projected," "estimated" or "targeted."
I've got no problems with your products, everything has pros/cons and the consumers can decide for themselves. There's far more to a complete system then just some exhaust and tubes, such as a proper calibration or the proper computer system. Then the support before and after sale, warranty, custom calibrations, instructions......The consumers will benefit with lower prices and better product so its a win-win for most.
As for the high road, many don't know our relationship and the openness I've always shown you about what were doing, how were doing and what's coming. As a dealer, which is one who represents a certain brand, coming out with something that's direct competition underminds the spirit of being a dealer for a product, and I'll leave that for a later conversation.
We've got some great new products and some new directions so I'm looking forward to the competition, good luck with your new product line.
Now if a dealer actually quotes that it will come in at a price near or below ours? Even though thats incorrect, I have to point it out and correct it as again, that doesn't represent us in the proper way.
Many were under the assumption that it made the HP quoted, again, misrepresentation. System has never run therefore a few key words would've been helpful such as "projected," "estimated" or "targeted."
I've got no problems with your products, everything has pros/cons and the consumers can decide for themselves. There's far more to a complete system then just some exhaust and tubes, such as a proper calibration or the proper computer system. Then the support before and after sale, warranty, custom calibrations, instructions......The consumers will benefit with lower prices and better product so its a win-win for most.
As for the high road, many don't know our relationship and the openness I've always shown you about what were doing, how were doing and what's coming. As a dealer, which is one who represents a certain brand, coming out with something that's direct competition underminds the spirit of being a dealer for a product, and I'll leave that for a later conversation.
We've got some great new products and some new directions so I'm looking forward to the competition, good luck with your new product line.
We have not talked down nor never not supported your product. As the matter of fact we have promoted your product in print and online more than any other dealer ever has. We even build products to work in conjunction with yours as we will continue to.
All that you have shared with me I too am open to share with you. As the matter of fact I hope that in the future you see this as far less of a threat than your initial interpretation. I have been a huge fan of your efforts and feel our industry is fortunate for what Whipple has brought it.
I read that you see this in direct competition and I can honestly say this is not our view. This is not a Coke and Pepsi comparison. This is a Coke and Sprite comparison you just can't be everything to everyone. The whole world doesn't want just one option. This kit was designed for a different consumer that's looking for a different option.
Mercury Racing has changed the playing field and they have showed the consumer an option that they are hungry for. We are merely adapting to the changes the market now demands. Supercharging isn't going away but Turbo Charging is coming. We didn't invent it any more than you did the screw style supercharger. You saw an opportunity to develop an amazing product and we see one also. Not from the standpoint of competition with you but as an opportunity at the future of performance boating. I'm sorry were both forced to build products around Mercury racing offerings.
Our goal was never to be a direct competitor or undermine you. We are merely responding to the market as it screams out for options. Aren't these posts enough to show you the enthusiasm for turbo charging? While the form of turbo charging would obviously be considered some sister to supercharging we in no way shape or form have encroached upon your designs or products. While it would seem this has all come across to you as competition but it didn't to us. If for some reason you still really see this from a competitive stand point then the consumer will really benefit as I'm sure you have plenty of great additional things coming to market.
Ok to just address the kit a little deeper. When we spoke of the envelope I have always said the kit was no wider than stock and no taller I would have never said no further forward a blind man in brail could even feel that.
As for your remarks of reference about customer support before and after sale, warranty, instructions.....I presume this was just you being funny making jokes right?
02-23-2012 | 11:08 AM
#49
Registered
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,436
Likes: 5
From: Fresno, CA, 93722, USA
Your right many don't know our relationship and friendship and my respect for you and everything you have accomplished. We have always been a HUGE fan of your product. You know this? That's whats crazy here. We would not ever undermine a vendor? We have an open line of communication I wasn't sure why you chose OSO as the platform? New era? As I have always called you in the past I look forward to and am anxious further that discussion about dealer spirit and integrity I suggest the phone though as I have SOOOOO much to discuss with you in regards to those subjects.
We have not talked down nor never not supported your product. As the matter of fact we have promoted your product in print and online more than any other dealer ever has. We even build products to work in conjunction with yours as we will continue to.
All that you have shared with me I too am open to share with you. As the matter of fact I hope that in the future you see this as far less of a threat than your initial interpretation. I have been a huge fan of your efforts and feel our industry is fortunate for what Whipple has brought it.
I read that you see this in direct competition and I can honestly say this is not our view. This is not a Coke and Pepsi comparison. This is a Coke and Sprite comparison you just can't be everything to everyone. The whole world doesn't want just one option. This kit was designed for a different consumer that's looking for a different option.
Mercury Racing has changed the playing field and they have showed the consumer an option that they are hungry for. We are merely adapting to the changes the market now demands. Supercharging isn't going away but Turbo Charging is coming. We didn't invent it any more than you did the screw style supercharger. You saw an opportunity to develop an amazing product and we see one also. Not from the standpoint of competition with you but as an opportunity at the future of performance boating. I'm sorry were both forced to build products around Mercury racing offerings.
Our goal was never to be a direct competitor or undermine you. We are merely responding to the market as it screams out for options. Aren't these posts enough to show you the enthusiasm for turbo charging? While the form of turbo charging would obviously be considered some sister to supercharging we in no way shape or form have encroached upon your designs or products. While it would seem this has all come across to you as competition but it didn't to us. If for some reason you still really see this from a competitive stand point then the consumer will really benefit as I'm sure you have plenty of great additional things coming to market.
Ok to just address the kit a little deeper. When we spoke of the envelope I have always said the kit was no wider than stock and no taller I would have never said no further forward a blind man in brail could even feel that.
As for your remarks of reference about customer support before and after sale, warranty, instructions.....I presume this was just you being funny making jokes right?
We have not talked down nor never not supported your product. As the matter of fact we have promoted your product in print and online more than any other dealer ever has. We even build products to work in conjunction with yours as we will continue to.
All that you have shared with me I too am open to share with you. As the matter of fact I hope that in the future you see this as far less of a threat than your initial interpretation. I have been a huge fan of your efforts and feel our industry is fortunate for what Whipple has brought it.
I read that you see this in direct competition and I can honestly say this is not our view. This is not a Coke and Pepsi comparison. This is a Coke and Sprite comparison you just can't be everything to everyone. The whole world doesn't want just one option. This kit was designed for a different consumer that's looking for a different option.
Mercury Racing has changed the playing field and they have showed the consumer an option that they are hungry for. We are merely adapting to the changes the market now demands. Supercharging isn't going away but Turbo Charging is coming. We didn't invent it any more than you did the screw style supercharger. You saw an opportunity to develop an amazing product and we see one also. Not from the standpoint of competition with you but as an opportunity at the future of performance boating. I'm sorry were both forced to build products around Mercury racing offerings.
Our goal was never to be a direct competitor or undermine you. We are merely responding to the market as it screams out for options. Aren't these posts enough to show you the enthusiasm for turbo charging? While the form of turbo charging would obviously be considered some sister to supercharging we in no way shape or form have encroached upon your designs or products. While it would seem this has all come across to you as competition but it didn't to us. If for some reason you still really see this from a competitive stand point then the consumer will really benefit as I'm sure you have plenty of great additional things coming to market.
Ok to just address the kit a little deeper. When we spoke of the envelope I have always said the kit was no wider than stock and no taller I would have never said no further forward a blind man in brail could even feel that.
As for your remarks of reference about customer support before and after sale, warranty, instructions.....I presume this was just you being funny making jokes right?
It wasn't a joke, it was just some of the things customers use to determine which direction there going, was not meant as a jab. Didn't say one was good or bad, just making an obvious point.
Last edited by Whipple Charged; 02-23-2012 at 11:26 AM.
02-23-2012 | 11:26 AM
#50
Platinum Member
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 3,707
Likes: 89
From: MA and NH
Dustin,
I have always looked forward to reading your posts. Your wealth of knowledge and experience are second to none. Lately though, between your support for for both of the business's you are involved with (Whipple and OL) you seem to be over defensive and kind of angry. There is enough business to go around for eveybody and at the end of the day, you will always be on top. Relax, we don't want you to overheat and thank you for all of your very informative posts.
I have always looked forward to reading your posts. Your wealth of knowledge and experience are second to none. Lately though, between your support for for both of the business's you are involved with (Whipple and OL) you seem to be over defensive and kind of angry. There is enough business to go around for eveybody and at the end of the day, you will always be on top. Relax, we don't want you to overheat and thank you for all of your very informative posts.
Last edited by pm203; 02-23-2012 at 11:35 AM.
