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Did the fuel pump cause my engine failure?

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Did the fuel pump cause my engine failure?

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Old 03-14-2012, 01:07 PM
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http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/g...uel-pumps.html
Check this thread out. Guy is running this Carter pump on a blower motor. The pump flows 172 gph (superceded part number is now M7901G) which is more than enough for this application. Pressure and volume are two different animals on a carb engine. 7 pounds pissing through a stir straw will not work on a big engine. 5 pounds is plenty if you have the fuel "system" to back it up. Clearly you had a problem with the fuel system as you replaced it all after you blew it up. Your new builder wanted more pressure which is OK but 5 would have been enough. If you still had less than that there are still issues with the rigging of the boat. Check valves in the tank? Small pickups? The pump is NOT the problem. If I were you I would be chasing the rigger for costing you an engine.
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:12 PM
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Who is John B? six posts?

Carter tested the pump and said it was fine. Is that not enough?
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:35 PM
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This note below is the Federal Mogul response (owner of Carter Fuel Systems) concerning the part number supplied.

With that information this pump will support:
500hp @ a BSBC of .5
450hp @ a BSBC of .55
400hp @ a BSBC of .6




Response to an inquiry to Federal Mogul on part #M61045:

John, here are the only performance specifications that I have for the M61045 Carter Fuel Pump, 7-8.5 lbs. operating pressure and 40 gallons per hour @ operating pressure. The only testing that we will do at this location, is if a fuel pump is sent in on a labor claim we will test it for performance.

From The Federal-Mogul Aftermarket Product Support Team

This is a Non-Monitored mailbox, Please do not respond to this mail box.
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:52 PM
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Brad:

Just because someone talks more than they should--- doesn't mean they have much to say.
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Old 03-14-2012, 02:05 PM
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Rather than worrying about a pump that should have been figured out on the maiden voyage, shouldn't we ponder how the hole got in the head and why heat indicators show hot? and Mbam, I thought maybe the half inch hole might release enough water to not bend the rod and break the piston. But your way, it is pretty hard to overheat the motor in one revolution by filling it with water.
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Old 03-14-2012, 02:21 PM
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Given the piston speed above idle a 1/2" hole is not enough. And I agree you are not going to overheat in 1 rev. I just had this in my head as a possiblity - pump is ng or not pumping for some reason, engine overheats - no water in head - pow - just a possibilty.


I think it is pretty much impossible to melt a head with water in it. Ever see someone boil water in a paper cup or aluminum can with a torch? It has won me a few bucks as a bar bet.

and here I am right back in it
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Old 03-14-2012, 03:15 PM
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At the time of the engine failure I was running WOT with another boat. I did hear the engine sound change and at that point stopped the boat. The engine did not run after that point. I called Sea Tow and was towed to a dock on the Bohemia River. My son brought the trailer and some tools. I put the boat on the trailer, pulled all the plugs, found water coming out of the spark plug holes, pumped the water out and oiled the cylinders. Then towed the boat home.


I was told Carter did test the fuel pump and provided their findings that the pump worked. But from what I have been reading in the responses, along with the posted response from Federal-Mogul, the installed Carter fuel pump M61045 was not the correct fuel pump for the engine @ 40 gallons per hour. According to the formula I found on holley.com the engine required 58.8 gallons per hour.

I will state it again since someone appears to not be getting it. After the fuel lines and filter/separator were replaced - the fuel pressure was still 3.75 to 4 psi. Therefore the fuel lines and filter/separator were not the cause.

The guy with the blower motor has a different fuel pump. While putting out, as per your statement, 172 gph must be what his engine required. My engine required 58.8 gph but was only getting 40 gph that the M61045 pump was capable of providing. Just doesn't seem to be enough to me. BOOM! I'm lucky I did not sustain more damage than what was incurred.
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Old 03-14-2012, 04:12 PM
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Who built the engine that had the failure? At first when I was reading it sounded like Rudy did, but now it sounds like he fixed it? Please clarify. Here's my thoughts for what it's worth.. 5lbs is not enough fuel pressure for this application and the fact that it immediately changed to 7lbs with a new pump illustrates that the $50 Carter pump couldn't keep up. Also, the hole in the head is strange. If it burned through into a water jacket that's one thing, but I've never seen a hole in the head unless there was no water in there. I would think if you had near enough water pressure that engine would lock up hard with a hole that size. Did you check to see what head gaskets were in there, series or parallel? It probably was a bad combo of things that killed it.

Edit: I just reread the thread and realize now that Rudy did not build the engine that failed. I'd guess with Brad Z defending the pump this was an Ateco engine?

Last edited by HaxbySpeed; 03-14-2012 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 03-14-2012, 08:51 PM
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Yes, it is an ATECO engine. It ran perfectly in the Fall of 2009. Per Steve, he was running at 87.5 miles per hour. Towards the end of June of 2010, Steve called to say the engine had failed while running at WOT and he saw that the water temperature gauge was buried, which would indicate a temperature of greater than 300 degrees.

While on the phone with ATECO, Steve asked if it was safe to try and restart the engine since he had sat for over an hour to let it cool. Our tech listened as he cranked the engine and it turned over, but the sound indicated that there was a bad cylinder and he would need to be towed in.

We instructed Steve to take the engine to Rudy for inspection and evaluation since he is in the same area. Rudy later told me that all 4 heat tabs were melted, which means the engine had reached over 220 degrees for a sustained period of time. In order for that to happen, the engine had to be run dry of the necessary water to keep it cool, allowing the combustion heat to melt a hole in the cylinder head.

After later learning of the hole in the cylinder head (which would have allowed water to flood in the engine if there had been any at the time it failed) leads us to believe that the lack of water at the time of failure allowed the engine to turn over and not be hydrostatically locked.

Going back to the fuel pump issue, Rudy informed me that he told the installing mechanic to change the fuel lines at the time of installation and it was not done. He then told him a second time, yet they were not changed. Rudy ended up having to change the fuel lines. That information came directly from Rudy.

Clearly we all understand that an engine does not put out it’s maximum hp at all rpm’s. Fuel requirements ramp up as rpm’s increase and so does the flow of the pump, in order to meet the demands of the engine. So let’s make sure we’re comparing “apples to apples” when we’re discussing fuel demands of an engine.
The fuel pump used on this engine was tested at 1800rpm’s and was found to deliver 60.1 gph. I don’t know where the information on this thread is coming from and I don’t know that I would automatically trust it just because it’s written in red. However, I do know that the test results provided by Federal-Mogul’s Product Analysis Department in St. Louis have indicated that the pump in question was in proper working order and has been confirmed to be the proper pump for Steve’s engine.

The Carter M7901G (formerly M61045) is a very good fuel pump and has been used in a wide variety of marine applications without issue, as also indicated on Offshoreonly.
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Old 03-14-2012, 09:07 PM
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when building a boat where it turns 5500plus rpm, everything should match, bigger fuel lines, oil coolers, less restricted water,etc. i see no one to blame except for the driver sorry but 300plus hell if mine gets over 220 i start looking for the obvious problem.

Last edited by johnnyboatman; 03-14-2012 at 09:10 PM.
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