There is a gap in the market which has never been filled...
04-20-2012, 07:03 AM
#11
Gold Member
I hadn't seen this before. The Active Thunder 33' Evolution Xpress, available in outboards 
http://www.activethunderboats.com/33_gallery.htm
Nice to have options.
http://www.activethunderboats.com/33_gallery.htm
Nice to have options.
04-20-2012, 07:34 AM
#12
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so far loving the room and ability to fire up a genny and do all the things i could at home..
the 342 is pleasing in a big way, cant wait to take it off shore for a week or so/
the 342 is pleasing in a big way, cant wait to take it off shore for a week or so/
04-20-2012, 07:38 AM
#13
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Along those lines...I had a crew over at National Liquidators in Ft. Lauderdale yesterday. I always look around at inventory and came across a nice Formula cuddy. I thought..."What a nice 22' cruiser...a bit small but nice". Turns out it was a 260SS!! I was amazed...my 255 would swallow it whole.
I guess the trick is now to put 3~4' of swim platform on the transom and call a 23' a 26' !!!
I guess the trick is now to put 3~4' of swim platform on the transom and call a 23' a 26' !!!
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BudMA (06-23-2020)
04-20-2012, 07:47 AM
#14
The Formulas are beautiful. Too bad they have no headroom in the cabins. Love the layouts, and the quality. The 270SS has a bit more than 4' of headroom, in a 6200 pound boat. You pay for that sleek, flatter deck.
04-20-2012, 08:57 AM
#15
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
My friend has a 99 or 2000 38' Wellcraft Excalibur and that is a really cool blend of cruiser and go-fast. It has a pair of 496 HO and will top at 60+mph and cruise all day at 45-50.
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BudMA (06-23-2020)
04-20-2012, 05:15 PM
#16
Great thread and I of course, agree.
It's a different market than most are into in the Hi Perf Offshore crowd. Most of those guys don't weekend on their boat. More of a sports car to them I think. Imagine having a Viper and going to track day w/a nice room and hanging w/you friends while comparing hardware and beating on them on the track.
The market you're talking about is more of the camper crowd. At least in the sub 30' range.
I've spent the last 10 yrs fantasizing about splashing my Sonic and updating it w/current construction, design, power options. I truly believe a market is there if my sugar daddy were ever to come along
Interesting that you'll see way more in this market pre 1990 than you will post 1990. Something else I always found ridiculous but I'm sure market driven, find a cabin picture in any brochure, any magazine test on any sub 30' boat??????
My dad got our family in to boating just after returning from WW II as many did. He being a retired engineer just told me the other day that that happened because he researched family activity Vs expense and boating surfaced. (at that time) He may be 92 but he's still a geek
A lot of the literature that JP-8 posted (awesome by the way) is from that era. It was function over form in that era. If a 18' plywood O/B pocket cruiser had a plywood table that folded into a tiny bed........., and could plane w/a 18 HP motor that was front page news.
Once you get over 30' (IMO) the options open way up through all era's just due to increased size.
A lot of those boats w/over night capabilities were challenged in the looks department to say the very least. You had to want to be able to stay on your boat way more than hang w/your buds at the local watering holes.
Here's a couple pix's of a perfect example. A 1968 19' Glastron Carlson Conquest that was my first cuddy cabin. I found it rotting in a field after catching fire. Being a "function" guy I fell in love with it based on the size of cabin. That thing used to get laughed at all the time! I remember being in the cabin at Put In Bay one time and hearing a guy on the dock laughing at it
His buddy stopped him though recognizing what it was. A very early, fiberglass cuddy cabin, aimed at the go fast crowd. That boat could sleep 4 adults w/o touching each other and did many times. Although some touching was involved. My next boat was a 28' inboard cruiser and it had a smaller V-berth! The Glastron had storage under all V-berth, a cut out for a head, the cushion on the port side of the cockpit folded up and into a jump seat and had a bench seat across transom that was also, all storage.
I saw your thread about windshield boats and didn't respond assuming that the expertise on this board had you covered and assumed you were implying new which doesn't exist. If not mentioned on that thread I would add the 25' and 28' Checkmates to the mix from the mid to late 80's. These were awesome boats, available as twin O/B (or easy I/O conversion) and were built in the pre-inner liner era which gives you a ton more space as well.
After owning my 2nd 24' Sonic I like the build quality of the Checkmates better plus my boat has a liner. (where I haven't removed it)
It's a different market than most are into in the Hi Perf Offshore crowd. Most of those guys don't weekend on their boat. More of a sports car to them I think. Imagine having a Viper and going to track day w/a nice room and hanging w/you friends while comparing hardware and beating on them on the track.
The market you're talking about is more of the camper crowd. At least in the sub 30' range.
I've spent the last 10 yrs fantasizing about splashing my Sonic and updating it w/current construction, design, power options. I truly believe a market is there if my sugar daddy were ever to come along
Interesting that you'll see way more in this market pre 1990 than you will post 1990. Something else I always found ridiculous but I'm sure market driven, find a cabin picture in any brochure, any magazine test on any sub 30' boat??????
My dad got our family in to boating just after returning from WW II as many did. He being a retired engineer just told me the other day that that happened because he researched family activity Vs expense and boating surfaced. (at that time) He may be 92 but he's still a geek
A lot of the literature that JP-8 posted (awesome by the way) is from that era. It was function over form in that era. If a 18' plywood O/B pocket cruiser had a plywood table that folded into a tiny bed........., and could plane w/a 18 HP motor that was front page news.
Once you get over 30' (IMO) the options open way up through all era's just due to increased size.
A lot of those boats w/over night capabilities were challenged in the looks department to say the very least. You had to want to be able to stay on your boat way more than hang w/your buds at the local watering holes.
Here's a couple pix's of a perfect example. A 1968 19' Glastron Carlson Conquest that was my first cuddy cabin. I found it rotting in a field after catching fire. Being a "function" guy I fell in love with it based on the size of cabin. That thing used to get laughed at all the time! I remember being in the cabin at Put In Bay one time and hearing a guy on the dock laughing at it
His buddy stopped him though recognizing what it was. A very early, fiberglass cuddy cabin, aimed at the go fast crowd. That boat could sleep 4 adults w/o touching each other and did many times. Although some touching was involved. My next boat was a 28' inboard cruiser and it had a smaller V-berth! The Glastron had storage under all V-berth, a cut out for a head, the cushion on the port side of the cockpit folded up and into a jump seat and had a bench seat across transom that was also, all storage.
I saw your thread about windshield boats and didn't respond assuming that the expertise on this board had you covered and assumed you were implying new which doesn't exist. If not mentioned on that thread I would add the 25' and 28' Checkmates to the mix from the mid to late 80's. These were awesome boats, available as twin O/B (or easy I/O conversion) and were built in the pre-inner liner era which gives you a ton more space as well.
After owning my 2nd 24' Sonic I like the build quality of the Checkmates better plus my boat has a liner. (where I haven't removed it)
It is a crime that the 24 Sonic is no longer available. I have to believe that there is a market for these types of boats. The 24 Sonic with a raised deck would be killer.
I've been bugging Formula for years to bring back the 233 (which has a truly massive forward berth). It would make a superb cabin cruiser.
The radiused keel makes a marked difference in ride quality. I believe the 24 Sonic also has a rounded keel, as does the 31 SS.
I've been saying for years that if things weren't so bad, I'd start a (very) small boat factory and take up the slack in the market. I've got some great designs and a few hull innovations of my own, but it just isn't likely that conditions will improve.
The boat builders don't see the market, and they are driven by past sales. So we have lighter boats, smaller cabins with a PP, and very little in the way of overnighting innovation. It gets real tiring seeing a couple of benches and a flat V berth. Same old. If you want more, you really have to go to a recreational, not a performance boat. It gets harder if you want the mobility of trailering.
The realities of today's market are that they won't build what we want anytime soon.
My ideal would be a AT 28 sized boat, twin outboards, and I want a sit down. Basically, a Liberator in 2012. lol
The realities of today's market are that they won't build what we want anytime soon.
My ideal would be a AT 28 sized boat, twin outboards, and I want a sit down. Basically, a Liberator in 2012. lol
I've often thought about simply building a one-off design for myself. It really is the only way. The current manufacturers aren't going to break tradition.
I'm a huge fan of the 27 Sedan. Yet another design that should still be in production (with perhaps a slight increase in freeboard). The 60 is great, too. But like the old Maltese 53 ads used to say: "Too much damn boat for the average guy".
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BudMA (06-23-2020)
04-21-2012, 07:20 AM
#17
Registered
Ditto on the 27' Sedan. There is a just restored, bare hull that's been floating around the Miami/Lauderdale area for the last yr or so.
My Sonic does have the round keel.
As to stretching the boat to a 27/28 I'll make two points.
#1.What the builders have told me re. going bigger is that the expense (labor + materials) to build a 24' is very close to building a 28' and the 28' brings 20%+ more @ purchase. Hummmhhh, which to build, which to build.
#2. I'm not going to say a whole lot on this one because like so many things in my life that I've seen some one do and then spent the next 10 yrs claiming to have been ready to do that myself but.....
Can you tow a 28' behind the family mini van or smaller economy car? How well would it run on a single? Speed wise and efficiency. How about single handing? Small/shallow inland lakes?
When I was interviewing at Sonic I tried pitching this to them w/their Prowler but they were going all in w/the big boats like every one else in the industry.
I talked to the guys at Active Thunder and they will build you a O/B powered 28' if you can write the check. (unfortunately I can not)
Progression also offers an "XL" version of their 24' that really gets to me. One of the very few newer designs that has close to the space of my Sonic.
I'm pretty sure the boys at Velocity will also build you what ever you want as well.
As to the windshield, all the custom guys will add one for you or do it your self. I have done several.
Another option is to buy a used I/O cuddy that you like and convert it to O/B's. I've been watching that market for yrs and are tons of viable candidates out there for cheap. The issue w/most becomes the performance envelope. If you rig and power it to run, is the hull built to handle it?? Most are not.
Great thread JP, thanks for posting it.
Gary
PS, some one w/the funds, call me. I can sell you
JP, thanks for the pix's from the brochure too. Gave mine to the new owner of my old one. One of my favorite boats. Did everything well.
My Sonic does have the round keel.
As to stretching the boat to a 27/28 I'll make two points.
#1.What the builders have told me re. going bigger is that the expense (labor + materials) to build a 24' is very close to building a 28' and the 28' brings 20%+ more @ purchase. Hummmhhh, which to build, which to build.
#2. I'm not going to say a whole lot on this one because like so many things in my life that I've seen some one do and then spent the next 10 yrs claiming to have been ready to do that myself but.....
Can you tow a 28' behind the family mini van or smaller economy car? How well would it run on a single? Speed wise and efficiency. How about single handing? Small/shallow inland lakes?
When I was interviewing at Sonic I tried pitching this to them w/their Prowler but they were going all in w/the big boats like every one else in the industry.
I talked to the guys at Active Thunder and they will build you a O/B powered 28' if you can write the check. (unfortunately I can not)
Progression also offers an "XL" version of their 24' that really gets to me. One of the very few newer designs that has close to the space of my Sonic.
I'm pretty sure the boys at Velocity will also build you what ever you want as well.
As to the windshield, all the custom guys will add one for you or do it your self. I have done several.
Another option is to buy a used I/O cuddy that you like and convert it to O/B's. I've been watching that market for yrs and are tons of viable candidates out there for cheap. The issue w/most becomes the performance envelope. If you rig and power it to run, is the hull built to handle it?? Most are not.
Great thread JP, thanks for posting it.
Gary
PS, some one w/the funds, call me. I can sell you
JP, thanks for the pix's from the brochure too. Gave mine to the new owner of my old one. One of my favorite boats. Did everything well.
Last edited by Twin O/B Sonic; 04-21-2012 at 07:23 AM.
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BudMA (06-23-2020)
04-21-2012, 07:50 AM
#18
As to stretching the boat to a 27/28 I'll make two points.
#1.What the builders have told me re. going bigger is that the expense (labor + materials) to build a 24' is very close to building a 28' and the 28' brings 20%+ more @ purchase. Hummmhhh, which to build, which to build.
#2. I'm not going to say a whole lot on this one because like so many things in my life that I've seen some one do and then spent the next 10 yrs claiming to have been ready to do that myself but.....
Can you tow a 28' behind the family mini van or smaller economy car? How well would it run on a single? Speed wise and efficiency. How about single handing? Small/shallow inland lakes?
#1.What the builders have told me re. going bigger is that the expense (labor + materials) to build a 24' is very close to building a 28' and the 28' brings 20%+ more @ purchase. Hummmhhh, which to build, which to build.
#2. I'm not going to say a whole lot on this one because like so many things in my life that I've seen some one do and then spent the next 10 yrs claiming to have been ready to do that myself but.....
Can you tow a 28' behind the family mini van or smaller economy car? How well would it run on a single? Speed wise and efficiency. How about single handing? Small/shallow inland lakes?
28' is a great starting point for larger lakes or occasional big water running. In yesterday's measurements, that's really a 25' boat, possibly 26'. But they really need to make better use of space. Outboard power helps out, a lot. But seeing useless consoles in cuddy cabins makes no sense, when a simple refit to enclosed head would be so simple. They do it easily on bowriders, why not cabins?
Just think of how much that 24' Sonic with twin OB's would be in today's market.
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BudMA (06-23-2020)
04-21-2012, 11:12 AM
#19
Registered
Yes, those are the two biggies. 5,000 pounds is the magical mark. Less trailer, that means the hull+power weighs in at about 3,500 to 4,000 at most. Past the 5,000 mark, you're in PU or larger SUV towing territory. Many smaller SUV's are limited to 3,500, and new SUV's like an Explorer or such are limited to 5k or under. Towing is a serious limitation to many of today's families, unless they are willing to get a second vehicle, or guzzling daily driver.
28' is a great starting point for larger lakes or occasional big water running. In yesterday's measurements, that's really a 25' boat, possibly 26'. But they really need to make better use of space. Outboard power helps out, a lot. But seeing useless consoles in cuddy cabins makes no sense, when a simple refit to enclosed head would be so simple. They do it easily on bowriders, why not cabins?
Just think of how much that 24' Sonic with twin OB's would be in today's market.
28' is a great starting point for larger lakes or occasional big water running. In yesterday's measurements, that's really a 25' boat, possibly 26'. But they really need to make better use of space. Outboard power helps out, a lot. But seeing useless consoles in cuddy cabins makes no sense, when a simple refit to enclosed head would be so simple. They do it easily on bowriders, why not cabins?
Just think of how much that 24' Sonic with twin OB's would be in today's market.
I think 28' is too long if you are trying to meet towing standards, and having something that can be economically run. One the thing the sailboat people have learned over the years is cut overhangs, and make the most use out of the overall length. Sailboats are typically displacement hulls, which will go faster with greater waterline lengths. Powerboats have gone the opposite direction, with long beaks, and huge swim platforms. To me, this is just wasted length, and you end up with a big boat with low usable space. This is an area for reassessment.
Michael
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BudMA (06-23-2020)
04-21-2012, 02:37 PM
#20
Registered
My comments to length are all hull length. No pulpits, beaks or platforms.
When you go to a 28' you need a real tow vehicle. 1/2 ton truck works great but if all the family has is an Accord and a mini van we are now forcing them to buy/insure/maintain a 3rd vehicle. So add that to the cost of the 28'.
A 24/25 (O/B) could work behind a decent mini van. Could/would be a great boat w/a single to start and then re-powered to twins down the road if it's owner feels the need for speed. I think high 70's is possible w/a single 300 and probably high 90's w/twins.
Now who's your competition?
As to price, to do full vacuum infusion with the best materials available including interior, hardware, rigging I keep coming up at $100K (+) w/twins. Not cheap but compared to what?
Would be a small niche market but that is where many shine
I think the popularity of the thread I did about 5 days on a 24' cuddy (the Sonic) in the Keys proves there is interest.
Many don't do these trips in the smaller boats because they do not know they can. Plus the magazines all tell us we need a 35' or up or we're second class.
Part of it is also thinking our wives all demand to be pampered all the time when in reality if you show them a sample of what you can do on your own (the Keys trip) they may become the biggest fan of those trips. I have had great luck in the past w/selling my better halves on this style of boating.
When you go to a 28' you need a real tow vehicle. 1/2 ton truck works great but if all the family has is an Accord and a mini van we are now forcing them to buy/insure/maintain a 3rd vehicle. So add that to the cost of the 28'.
A 24/25 (O/B) could work behind a decent mini van. Could/would be a great boat w/a single to start and then re-powered to twins down the road if it's owner feels the need for speed. I think high 70's is possible w/a single 300 and probably high 90's w/twins.
Now who's your competition?
As to price, to do full vacuum infusion with the best materials available including interior, hardware, rigging I keep coming up at $100K (+) w/twins. Not cheap but compared to what?
Would be a small niche market but that is where many shine
I think the popularity of the thread I did about 5 days on a 24' cuddy (the Sonic) in the Keys proves there is interest.
Many don't do these trips in the smaller boats because they do not know they can. Plus the magazines all tell us we need a 35' or up or we're second class.
Part of it is also thinking our wives all demand to be pampered all the time when in reality if you show them a sample of what you can do on your own (the Keys trip) they may become the biggest fan of those trips. I have had great luck in the past w/selling my better halves on this style of boating.
Last edited by Twin O/B Sonic; 04-21-2012 at 02:41 PM.
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BudMA (06-23-2020)
